Is there forgiveness...

[Stan]

Is there forgiveness for sins........ WITHOUT repentance?

[Gregory Matthews]

Forgiveness does not remove consequences.

a) Some teach that Christ forgave, at the Cross, ALL (no exceptions) sins. But, those who teach such do NOT teach at all will live in eternity with Christ. I.e. Some, as they teach it, will exercise thier choice to reject Christ, and then will accept the natural consequence of that choice--seperation from Christ leads to death.

I may be forgiven for the harm that I have done another. But, the consequence of that harm may be that I never have a good relationship with that person.

c) I, as a Church Treasurer (I am not.) may be forgiven for sealing Church funds. But, the consequence of that theft may be the I do prison time.

Under some thinking, forgiveness may be granted without repentence. But, the consequences still come, whether one has repented or not.

I know that some disagree with this. I simply throw it out for thought.

[Gerr]

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Stan Jensen said:

Is there forgiveness for sins........ WITHOUT repentance?

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[:"blue"]NO!!! [/]

Gerry

[there buster]

David Augsburger of Fuller Theological Seminary, has two magnificent books on this subject.

One, for everyone, is "The New Freedom of Forgiveness."

On a graduate level is, "Helping People Forgive."

His answer is "yes and no."

Forgiveness is a multi-step process which ends in reconciliation.

What we ordinarily think of as forgiveness can be one-sided. Reconciliation must be two-sided.

Gregory, you make some excellent points. I would only add that we often mistake forgiveness "I won't hold it against you" for pardon "There will be no consequences."

Limited forgiveness is always in our power, but pardon seldom is. Reconciliation is never entirely in our own power.

[Robert]

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Gregory Matthews said:

a) Some teach that Christ forgave, at the Cross, ALL (no exceptions) sins.

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• Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

When we [the human race] were God's enemies we were "reconciled" to God through Christ's death some 2000 years ago.

• 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Sometime later we [believers] received "the reconciliation" through repentance.

• Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions [again, His enemies]

  —it is by grace [not repentance] you have been saved.

  [How?] 6 And God raised us up with Christ [at the resurrection] and seated us with him in the heavenly realms [:"red"]in Christ Jesus[/]

  verse 8 For it is by grace you have been saved

  through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God....

"In Christ" we have a glorified humanity taken to heaven shortly after the cross. "In Him" we are complete. All this was executed when we were "dead in transgressions.

Sometime later we accepted this truth "through faith"!

The gift "in Jesus Christ" is complete...it was accomplished by His birth, life, death and resurrection.

The gift is complete....Accepting it by faith doesn't save us for we already stand "saved" by grace "in Jesus Christ". It, faith, simply makes slavation effective in our individual lives.

Rob

[Guest]

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Stan Jensen said:

Is there forgiveness for sins........ WITHOUT repentance?

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If the answer is “NO”, does that mean that without forgiveness we cannot be saved?

Where does that leave people who know nothing of God and forgiveness?

Doesn’t God accept those who have no knowledge of His grace and forgiveness?

There was a time in my life where I believe that I was forgiven and had not repented.

The first day I ever attended church, which was approximately 14 years ago, I was convicted in my spirit that I needed to get right with God. I was new to the area and did not know a soul in the church and had no idea of how to go about getting right. I felt so overwhelmed with guilt about my past that I became depressed and cried on an off for the next 4 days. All I knew, at that point in time, was that God existed and that He loved me. I did not know or understand about having a relationship with God or about His forgiveness. The following Friday morning, whilst having a shower, I broke down and said to God, in desperation, “Help me”. Well, He did help me. Right then and there, he took away my guilt and shame, and by the time I got out of that shower I was experiencing the biggest high I have ever experienced, bigger than bungee jumping. I did not know about repentance. All I knew was that something was wrong and it needed fixing. I believe I was cleansed by God in that shower.

Going to church and not knowing anything may sound a bit far fetched so I will explain. The reason I knew that God existed was from a study that I had in my home with the Jehovah Witnesses. However, I felt that something was not quite right and stopped the study. Shortly after, we moved 1000 Kilometres north. Knowing that there was a God and the He loved “me - the unlovely”, was the most beautiful thing in the world. It is amazing how God works.

Hope this all makes sense.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, Robert, those who teach such rely on Romans.

[Stan]

Can there be true repentance without Restitution?

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I asked this before, and it stopped the discussion <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Liz]

I would say that it depends on who is doing the forgiving. Christ died while we were yet sinners. There was no repenting at that time--but as I accepted Christ then I repented of my sins--and now do so on a daily basis. Once you have accepted Christ you have to repent in order to be forgiven.

However, if your fellow man trespasses against you, then you can and should forgive them, irregardless if they repent to you or not. When we are asked to forgive, it is for us, not them. We are asked to give it all to GOD. We forgive our fellow men their transgressions and that allows GOD to then handle all the rest.

In other words, a man hurts me and goes on his way--never asking me for forgiveness, I forgive him anyway. I commit a sin, I repent, and ask for GOD to forgive me, HE does. If I see that man in Heaven, I will rejoice knowing that he owned up to his hurting of me and repented to GOD. If I don't see him, I will be sad. Either way, right now I don't carry the burden he placed on my shoulders when he hurt me, because I have forgiven him.

I hope that this made sense.

Liz

[Guest]

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Can there be true repentance without Restitution?

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I believe there can be true repentance without restitution as it is not always possible to make amends or compensate for things that have happened. In cases where it is possible, I think it is best practice to do restitution thing.

I hope I am on the right track here. Stan, what exactly do yo mean by restitution?

[Bravus]

A human case as an example: Sue's father abused her as a child. She forgave him, but he never truly repented. In a sense, the forgiveness could not be completed, because it was not accepted. Even if he had repented, and the forgiveness had been completed, there would still have been consequences (distrust of him around children, precautions to protect them).

Perhaps, by way of parallel, God forgives us through Jesus' sacrifice, but the forgiveness can't be completed and take effect unless it's accepted. That means both its primary effect in saving us and its secondary effect in freeing us from guilt. There are consequences of sin no matter what our state of forgiveness, and forgiveness is always available, but without our acceptance it's a circuit with a missing piece, and no current flows.

[Bravus]

...and accepting forgiveness naturally means first acknowledging our *need* for forgiveness, which implies repentance (just to bring it back around to Stan's original question).

[Nicodema]

I believe that God reconciled everyone to Himself through Christ's death on the cross. I believe Christ's death paid the full penalty for every sin that everyone ever had committed or will commit. However, I also believe that no one can experience, receive, or benefit from that reconciliation and forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is simply turning away from sin and turning to the Living God.

Repentance comes from the Greek word metanoia which means literally a change of mind. However, get this: the Bible also says that repentance is a gift from God. We cannot work up repentance out of our own sinful nature; it must be given to us by God. We can, however, seek it and ask for it, and the promise is there that whatever we ask in His name that is God's will shall be done for us. Since God is NOT willing that ANY should perish, I believe all who seek repentance will be granted it.

Nico

[benherndon]

---very Biblical!!

[Gerr]

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Beapeacemaker said:

Quote:

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Stan Jensen said:

Is there forgiveness for sins........ WITHOUT repentance?

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If the answer is “NO”, does that mean that without forgiveness we cannot be saved?

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[:"blue"]"I tell you, no; but UNLESS you repent you will all likewise perish." Jesus in Lk 13:5 NKJ

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pe 3:9 NKJ.

See also what Nico says about repentance. Unless a rebel who is traveling 180 degrees away from God changes his mind & turns around 180 degrees, he is still going 180 degrees away from God and therefore there can be no forgiveness or reconciliation. How can there be reconciliation unless one repents/changes his/her mind about what cause the estrangement in the first place/ [/]

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Where does that leave people who know nothing of God and forgiveness?

Doesn't God accept those who have no knowledge of His grace and forgiveness?

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[:"blue"]"God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, institinctively follow what the law says, they show that in THEIR HEARTS they know right from wrong. They DEMONSTRATE THAT GOD'S LAW IS WRITTEN WITHIN THEM, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right." Rom 2:12-15 NLT. [/]

Quote:

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There was a time in my life where I believe that I was forgiven and had not repented.

The first day I ever attended church, which was approximately 14 years ago, I was convicted in my spirit that I needed to get right with God. I was new to the area and did not know a soul in the church and had no idea of how to go about getting right. I felt so overwhelmed with guilt about my past that I became depressed and cried on an off for the next 4 days. All I knew, at that point in time, was that God existed and that He loved me. I did not know or understand about having a relationship with God or about His forgiveness. The following Friday morning, whilst having a shower, I broke down and said to God, in desperation, “Help me”. Well, He did help me. Right then and there, he took away my guilt and shame, and by the time I got out of that shower I was experiencing the biggest high I have ever experienced, bigger than bungee jumping. I did not know about repentance. All I knew was that something was wrong and it needed fixing. I believe I was cleansed by God in that shower.

Going to church and not knowing anything may sound a bit far fetched so I will explain. The reason I knew that God existed was from a study that I had in my home with the Jehovah Witnesses. However, I felt that something was not quite right and stopped the study. Shortly after, we moved 1000 Kilometres north. Knowing that there was a God and the He loved “me - the unlovely”, was the most beautiful thing in the world. It is amazing how God works.

Hope this all makes sense.

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[:"blue"]Read the story of the Prodigal Son/Waiting Father. When did forgiveness take place? Was it when he fell into his Father's arms? or was it when he decided his course of life was enough & set his face & feet towards home? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to REPENTANCE?" ROMANS2:4 NKJ.

"For godly sorrow PRODUCES REPENTANCE leading to salvation, not be be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." 2 Cor 7:10 NKJ.

"For the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pe 3:9 NKJ.

[:"red"] "I tell you, no; ;but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Gerry

[benherndon]

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"God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, institinctively follow what the law says, they show that in THEIR HEARTS they know right from wrong. They DEMONSTRATE THAT GOD'S LAW IS WRITTEN WITHIN THEM, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right." Rom 2:12-15 NLT.

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>>>I wouldn't expect you to agree with me, Gerry--but you don't reveal ALL Paul says about the Gentiles and the Law. The Jewish aspects of 'the Law' were never written in the heart of the Gentile! The Gentiles were not held accountable to 'the whole Law of Moses' as you seem to suggest by the use of this text. What this text means is that the Gentile perishes APART from 'the Law of Moses'. That means that Jews and Gentiles both have inherent natural born knowledge that the second table of the Ten Cs is standard for everybody human, inherently, by nature! Every species has its own inherent, natural instinctual, laws.

As you showed in discussing Eph 2, the 'the whole Law of Moses' did not apply to them nor could they receive the benefit that the Jews received unless in rare instances they decided to 'become' Jews by joining the camp, getting circumcised and abiding by ALL the aspects, Jewish and otherwise, of the Law of MOses. The Law of MOses was the barrier that was removed by Christ "abolishing the Law with its regulations," thus making, after His death and resurrection and rejection of Judaism, He freed both the Jew from the burden of the Jewish aspects of the Law plus the whole law and also freed the Gentiles from the 'barrier' that required them to become Jews if they wanted to be God's people like the Jews, alone, were.

No! The Gentile, before Christ came, was NOT subject to the Jewish uniquenesses of the Law of Moses. But he was held responsible for treating his brothers and sisters of his community in a proper manner such as was described in the 2nd table of the Ten Cs. All peoples from the beginning of time have had the same social laws, rules and some form of government in the interest of all citizens of he community/area.

Besides this point and in re: forgiveness being dependant upon repentance----

To be sick is a sin! The last thing a person does is get sick and die--even if its suicide its a sickness. How can one repent from dying? Dead men do not repent or change their ways!

In using defibrillators, I've noticed occasionally the victim of the heart attack, for example, will when the defibrillator is triggered, that patient will sometimes begin to raise up from the painful stimulation, and say something like (or worse, with an epithet), "Oh! "****"-- don't do that!" ... and then lie back down and really die! How could he repent from the breaking of the 2nd part of the Ten Cs? I could go into much further detail but I will conclude now by saying that Jesus said all who call on His name WILL be saved. John 3:16ff, too. Nobody gets free from all sin ever in this life, technically at least! Nobody!

Its the detestable sins of 1Cor 5 and Rev 21, etc. if persisted in and the HS is rejected persistently that loses a person his salvation. This has nothing to do with the uniquely Jewish aspects of the Law of Moses which is what we and they were relieved from ever again being concerned about.

Ben

[NormF]

re: using defibrillators

Wow, being a doctor has it's difficult moments, doesn't it Dr. Ben? And there you were, trying to help. I think I'll stay in my row and keep hoeing.

Regards,

Norm

[cardw]

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"I tell you, no; ;but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

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I think we assume this is talking about eternal salvation. It is quite likely that Jesus was refering to this life. When we don't forgive or find repentance we begin to perish both physically and spiritually. We stop dwelling in peace and rest.

Richard

[Gerr]

[:"blue"]What law was written in the Gentiles' hearts who respond to the promptings of the Spirit?

"And one of them, a teacher of the Law, tried to trap him with a question. "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus answered, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments." Mt 22::35-40 GNT [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

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What law was written in the Gentiles' hearts who respond to the promptings of the Spirit?

"And one of them, a teacher of the Law, tried to trap him with a question. "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus answered, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments." Mt 22::35-40 GNT

Gerry

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>>>This was a conversation/argument between Jewish people about the Jewish Law of Moses! This was not fully applicable to the Gentiles compared with the Jews--I explained that above.

I know you believe the Gentiles were subject to the exact same law as the Israelites but that is not so. If you would read the Bible over and over from cover to cover you will find many texts saying that what the Bible refers to as being 'the Law and the Prophets' did NOT apply to Gentiles outside of the 'camp' of the Israelites. Many times I have pointed that out.

While the Bible indicates the eventual plan was to include ALLL peoples, He did not include all peoples that had departed from Him after creation times and the flood. It was prophesied that Esau for example would wander like Cain etc. Perhaps it was stimulated by God--who knows. Abraham and his progeny was CHOSEN exclusively to be God's special chosen people until Christ came. The PURPOSE of the 'scriptures' before Christ came was to show that He was going to come and take the message of eternal life to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. He did that and set it up for Paul and Peter to do the continuation. The Jewish/Mosaic era ceased with His death on the cross and the ripping of the inner curtain in the temple---and it was the "end" of the Jewish system of religion which God via Moses had set up for the Jews alone--It was the 'end' of the ruling of the Law of Moses. (I don't understand why about 1% of all Christians cannot see that! The other 99% do see it! ) From that point on, the Gentiles were then 'included' whether or not they got circumcised and celebrated the passover etc etc. Before that they MUST have been "formally adopted" into the Jewish people classification. According to Jewish authoritative documents there were apparently rules covering the 'adopting' of Gentiles----like Rahab and other 'virgin' pretty women chosen by Jew-boys for wives. Go read! I don't understand or 'get' God saying some of those things but that's His business, not mine.

Ben

[benherndon]

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Read the story of the Prodigal Son/Waiting Father. When did forgiveness take place? Was it when he fell into his Father's arms? or was it when he decided his course of life was enough & set his face & feet towards home?

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>>>I think you're taking the allegory a bit too far, Gerry.

The forgiveness in this human situation was when the Father recognized the person coming up the road towards 'home' was indeed his son coming home. The Father then put on the veggie 'ring' (that had a little watch to kosherize it) and they barbecued the fat-filled veggie-steak in celebration of the son's return.

We had a similar experience with our son! So did our dog, Charlie! My son was a 'hippy' type for 8 + yrs in the late 60s and early 70s. He had eaten with the 'pigs' in a way of speaking scrounging apples from the Russian River area of N. Calif. and scrounging the Launderettes for abandoned socks. He lived in abandoned barns and mines in Colorado.

He came 'home'(Charlie sat right up, gazed intently down the street and recognized him before I did and ran a whole block down the street to meet/greet him! Charlie forgave him before I did! ) asking me to send him back to college so he could just perhaps get into dental school and eventually support his wife and planned children. When his Mother saw him coming, and our dog, too, he had exceeded the time I had allowed for his education 'turnaround' when he left home years before. I recognized he had exceeded the time allowed but my wife and I decided OUR SON HAD COME HOME!!!

He is now a practicing dentist in N. Calif ---has two kids. His son is beginning to give him trouble. He has told his kids his own problem growing up under me! He has warned his son to not waste those years as he did. But---each generation seems to have to 'reinvent the wheel'--right?

My son loves me......Now! (He wasn't sure before! )

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

I personally think that the Father had forgiven the son before the son decided to return home. Why was he watching the road?

[benherndon]

(continued)----By the way, I had NOT been the perfect father by a long shot--among other things I had refused to 'sign' for him to get married before he was legally an adult. (The Calif law was different in those days!)

Kids! If I'd known what grief they can give when I was first married I might have had 'major' surgery....first!

Ben-----Sorry to be ,Stan!

[benherndon]

Yeah! Gregory, good point! Apologies to Gerry!

Jesus said He came to save sinners and forget (!) their sins and never recall them!