Is there forgiveness...

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

[Pockey]

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Nicodema said:

I believe that God reconciled everyone to Himself through Christ's death on the cross. I believe Christ's death paid the full penalty for every sin that everyone ever had committed or will commit. However, I also believe that no one can experience, receive, or benefit from that reconciliation and forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is simply turning away from sin and turning to the Living God.

Repentance comes from the Greek word metanoia which means literally a change of mind. However, get this: the Bible also says that repentance is a gift from God. We cannot work up repentance out of our own sinful nature; it must be given to us by God. We can, however, seek it and ask for it, and the promise is there that whatever we ask in His name that is God's will shall be done for us. Since God is NOT willing that ANY should perish, I believe all who seek repentance will be granted it.

Nico

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Amen!

[benherndon]

Well, Gerry, I was also remembering our many discussions of the past and the opinions you had in them. And, I wrongly assumed you still felt the same way --- that "The Law of Moses" that the Jews had was also for the Gentiles. Or have I been mistaken about your belief in this regard all along?

I apologize. Readin' writin' ain't like watchin' tongues talk!

Ben

P.S. Are you doing all OK now, still? Hope so! B

[Nicodema]

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Gregory Matthews said:

I personally think that the Father had forgiven the son before the son decided to return home. Why was he watching the road?

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Amen to that! I would go further and suggest the son had not even repented when he was returning home. He merely thought he could pitch the idea of him working and taking lodging there to his Dad since he knew the family business, etc. Note his words about how his Father's servants had plenty to eat and more. I think he prepared a pretty speech, and was NOT prepared for the Father's reaction. Ultimately it was the Father's demonstrated love which I presume won the son over.

This is in keeping with the Elijah message found in Malachi 4:5-6: "He shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and that of the sons to the fathers." Notice who is turned first: the Father turns to the son. God makes the first overture of the heart toward His child, through Jesus Christ, and THEN we respond by turning our hearts toward Him.

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

Well, Gerry, I was also remembering our many discussions of the past and the opinions you had in them. And, I wrongly assumed you still felt the same way --- that "The Law of Moses" that the Jews had was also for the Gentiles. Or have I been mistaken about your belief in this regard all along?

I apologize. Readin' writin' ain't like watchin' tongues talk!

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[:"blue"] [:"blue"] [/] [/]

Every Gentile converted to Judaism became subject to the same laws.

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P.S. Are you doing all OK now, still? Hope so! Ben

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Doing well, thank you. Back to work full time today. The catheter was removed Fri & wonder of wonders, the equipment still works! Used only 2 pads after it was removed & only one yesterday. I expect I won't be using any in a week.

I have to share this with you. My brother asked me what's the prostate for anyway. I told him to give men fun in young age & trouble in old age.

I think there's a cruel joke that life plays on us too. We arrive in this world with a blank mind, and if one lives long enough, leaves it with a blank mind as well. The first clothing we wear when we arrive (diapers), winds up being the same when we leave! We waddle & walk learning to walk and leave walking the same way!

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Gregory Matthews said:

I personally think that the Father had forgiven the son before the son decided to return home. Why was he watching the road?

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[:"blue"]Yes, I believe you are correct. Forgiveness was already in the Father's heart even before the son left, but it was not his until they met. In the spiritual application, however, I believe we experience forgiveness as soon as we decide to change direction 180 degrees. [/]

Gerry

[Stan]

I think it was the son's responsibility to accept the forgiveness. Not that different than our relationship with God is it?.

BUT I am going to throw out a few real life kind of situations, that has to deal with restitution.

[Stan]

Some real life examples

1) Single women, accepting Child support for 18 years, after the child was three years old, she realized the one paying the support was not the father. The real father (by features) was a bum who would not pay a dime, she needed the funds to survive. Would she need to pay it back to have restitution and harmony with repentance? What if the $$$ would be impossible? (real life situation, don't remember all the details)

2) Former vietnam vet, now financially strong, did an atrocity to one family, which would cause them financial hardship, feels like he needs to find them and make it right as part of his repentance. Has been aware of this and it has been eating away at him since that date. (real life situation, don't remember all the details)

3) 30 years ago man worked for a huge department store, took $$$$ by crediting his visa or selling things on ebay (not that there was an ebay then, not sure how he sold them) is dying and wants to make it right was the store. Has no money, and does not want to embarrass his children and grandchildren. (real life situation, don't remember all the details)

4) 30 years ago. woman worked during the day as an escort, to acquire better clothes for herself and her 4 kids, Should she tell her husband and ask for forgiveness?

[Stan]

4 examples may have been too much, lets just talk about number 1.

This happened before DNA was checked, and they were girlfriend/boyfriend for a couple of years.

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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Stan Jensen said:

Is there forgiveness for sins........ WITHOUT repentance?

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[:"blue"]NO!!! [/]

Gerry

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[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

It would appear the forgiveness is always available. However for all practical purposes, only purposeful acceptance avails one of the benefits of that forgiveness.

Preach the Word!

[LifeHiscost]

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Beapeacemaker said:

It is amazing how God works.

Hope this all makes sense.

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It definitly does, Bea.

Keep looking up!

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

This is in keeping with the Elijah message found in Malachi 4:5-6: "He shall turn the hearts of the

fathers

to the sons, and that of the sons to the fathers." Notice who is turned first: the Father turns to the son. God makes the first overture of the heart toward His child, through Jesus Christ, and THEN we respond by turning our hearts toward Him.

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[:"red"] "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel From everlasting to everlasting! And all the people said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD. " [/]

1 Chronicles 16:36

[LifeHiscost]

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Sid said:

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Nicodema said:

However, get this: the Bible also says that repentance is a

gift from God

.

Nico

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Amen!

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[:"red"] "Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?" [/] Rom 2:4 NLT

[:"red"] "Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?" [/] Rom 2:4

NASB

[:"red"] "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." [/] Acts 5:31 NASB

[aka]

Brethren, I write in general to the body of Christ on this Forum. This message will be understood by those who have committed their souls to the moral law of God. However, for those certain others at this Forum, or ones in the secular world around us, or those who have departed from their faith in God, discussion about the obligations of fulfilling the commandments of God most likely tend to fall on deaf ears. It's because of these persons living a law-unto-themselves where the advantage to ego takes priority. We need to ask if putting them under a yoke of right doing, without the Spirit of Christ within them, accomplishes salvation for them at all. I don't believe so because we are to work the works of righteousness after we walk in faith to the Son of God who forgives us our iniquities based on the atoning blood he shed for our sin condition. We start in faith, we please God in living by faith and our faith's substance in Him used in overcoming sins is accounted to us as proof of our committment's quality.

So any discussion on moral obligations to God's rules in the kingdom of God is so much blowing in the wind if the person has not yet entered into the kingdom by the front gate Jesus.

Forgiveness received without apologizing to the offended one?

Forgiveness received without repentance?

Forgiveness received without restitution?

Forgiveness remaining valid when the sin deed is repeated?

Forgiveness bringing erasure of memory to the sin deed by both parties involved?

Forgiveness bringing back trust in that person who did the sin deed of offense?

What is the godly Jewish mind of Jesus the Christ on all of this? Are we believers always going to solve moral issues with the 21st Century western-world-mind mentality?

What happens in the heart-mind of one who offends me I can hardly understand or have little influence on.

What happens in the heart of me I am responsible for if I want to keep my peace with God in balance, or my peace with my own thoughts in balance. I need to forgive. For my own mental health. And for the sake also of knowing that, I too, have offended others with sin-deeds.

Only feeling sorry that one's sin has been exposed in knowledge to others isn't proper repentance that leads to conversion away from having done the deed. Nor acknowledging that the deed was evil. There are rules of engagement for acknowledging sin done in God's eyes being confessed and forsaken to God alone. OTOH sins of offense done to the brethren need one on one confession. Ideally, but we have all experienced it doesn't consistantly happen among us that way. The method of having made a blurp then just ignoring or glossing over, is practiced more often. Going on as if nothing happened, or that all was of small insignificance. I truly believe, though, that there are lots of us who are a big thick in some places and don't know they have offended or even sinned against others.

It happens when the person is self-deluded or insensitive.

When having sinned against a group there is need to publicly apologize to the group.

Not as a punishment is this apology necessary, but as a determent from falling into the same sin again. The embarassment of having made the apology helps in the discipline putting plasticly before the conscience of the offender that socially he is hurting the body of Christ.

Turmeric

[Stan]

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LifeHiscost said:

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" /> [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

It would appear the forgiveness is always available. However for all practical purposes, only purposeful acceptance avails one of the benefits of that forgiveness.

Preach the Word!

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I am not sure if that was a command to the father or words of compassion.

AM THINKING, could there be forced forgiveness?? Not to sure that would work, get a bunch of people in Heaven who really do not want to be there...

[LifeHiscost]

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StanJensen said:

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LifeHiscost said:

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

[/] Luke 23:34 KJV

It would appear the forgiveness is always available. However for all practical purposes, only purposeful acceptance avails one of the benefits of that forgiveness.

Preach the Word!

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>I am not sure if that was a command to the father or words of compassion.<

AM THINKING, could there be forced forgiveness?? Not to sure that would work, ##get a bunch of people in Heaven who really do not want to be there...##

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Re: > < I've always accepted it as a request by Jesus, of the Father, as both He and His Father were moved by compassion for those who were taking part in an atrocity of which they had little or no real comprehension. **In my eyes, Jesus would never have asked for forgiveness for them if He had not believed that His Father would answer the request.**

[:"red"] "

What profit does man have left from all his toil at which he toils [Ecclesiastes is the book of the natural man whose interests are confined to the unstable, vanishing pleasures and empty satisfactions of those who live merely "under the sun." The natural man is not aware that all the affirmative answers to life are to be found in Him Who is above, not "under," the sun. The natural man grovels in the dust and finds only earthworms, while the spiritual man may soar on wings like eagles (Isa. 40:31) above all that is futile and disappointing, and may live in the consciousness of God's companionship, favor, and incomparable, everlasting rewards.] under the sun? [is life worth living?] " [/]

Ecclesiastes 1:3 AMP

[:"red"] "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [/] 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

Sorry to be so wordy with that AMP rendering of that verse, but it seemed so appropriate.

Jesus never made any request of His Father that the Holy Spirit did not prompt Him to make. IMHO, the Spirit would neither have prompted Jesus to make such a request if the forgiveness were not available, nor if He knew it to be inappropriate.

[:"red"] "Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." [/] John 5:19 NASB

[:"red"] "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [/]John 5:30 KJV

[:"red"] "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will realize that I am he and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak what the Father taught me." [/] John 8:28 NLT

Re: **[:"red"] "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." [/]Matt 21:22 KJV

Re: ## Of course the reality of that foregiveness would never have been answered, except through confession, repentance, and acceptance.

[:"red"] "For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." [/] Matthew 8:9-12 KJV

These texts are in no way to represent, from me, an indictment. Only drawing to attention how our Lord considers any of us who find a special place in the Lord's care, thought not to be offered to all who will accept.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

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Turmeric said:

Not as a punishment is this apology necessary, but as a determent from falling into the same sin again.

Turmeric

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Well said, Turmeric. Sometimes it seems so fruitless to put a message up for others to read, when it is obvious that many are not seeking, nor do they welcome the Holy Spirit's guidance, if it does not speak comforting words. Nevertheless we are told to speak as He gives us utterance.

[:"red"] "But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house." [/]

Ezek 3:27 KJV

[:"red"] "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." [/] Proverbs 9:8 KJV

[:"red"] "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.[/] Revelation 3:19 NKJV

Blessings!