Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[Gerr]

Do you think you can REALLY meet this standard?

ESV | ‎Lk 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Do you ever forget? Here is a startling quote, "Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you ever get sick? "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

Counsels on Health. 1923 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Here is how the ESV translates 1 Jn 3:6-8:

ESV | ‎1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. ‎7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. ‎8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

The verb in those underlined words are present & active. It is a willful/intentional/premeditated disobedience. I believe the Amplified had the correct nuance of the word. I don't have my Amplified with me to correctly quote it for you. Look it up if you have one. But the ESV & NASB use "practice sinning" which means the same thing as something done willfully/intentionally/premeditatively AND habitually. That is far different from something done inadvertently and un-intentionally.

As Rom 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short [present tense] of the glory of God."

[M. T. Cross]

Do you ever forget? Here is a startling quote, "Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Wow thanks to nine concussions, I am a total sinner then. You guys were right about me after all.

[Gerr]

Yes, Richard, you have a powerful argument. And that is because too many of us Christians are guilty of bearing false witness. We have taken/professed the name of Christ but have not yielded our hearts and lives for Him to change and mold us. But there are a few who have done just that. Read the story of King Manasseh, Paul, Peter, HarryOrchard, and there's a Mr. Harris in Riverside, CA (can't think of his first name right now}.

Right now, you feel that you are living a good moral life without God. That's because the devil is leaving you alone. But turn to God if you want to see the power of Satan arrayed against you, AND the power of God to deliver you.

[Gerr]

Wow thanks to nine concussions, I am a total sinner then. You guys were right about me after all.

But God can hold you accountable only for things you do intentionally. That's why a sinner's hope is ONLY in the perfect righteousness of Christ, to be received by faith.

[cardw]

Right now, you feel that you are living a good moral life without God. That's because the devil is leaving you alone. But turn to God if you want to see the power of Satan arrayed against you, AND the power of God to deliver you.

So exactly how does Satan leaving me alone to live a good life help him out?

[M. T. Cross]

Right now, you feel that you are living a good moral life without God. That's because the devil is leaving you alone. But turn to God if you want to see the power of Satan arrayed against you, AND the power of God to deliver you.

I know this was directed at CardW, but I would like a stab at it. I am (and I would guess CardW is as well) "tempted" to do things every day that are not fitting with a good moral lifestyle. Yet more times than not, based on worldview and personal ethics, we see them for what they are and resist that "temptation".

Card - if I have spoken out of turn for you here - apologies.

[cardw]

Do you think you can REALLY meet this standard?

Do you ever forget? Here is a startling quote, "Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you ever get sick? "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

Counsels on Health. 1923 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

This is not a standard. This is crazy making.

This is like saying that unless you become a married bachelor you will be lost.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you think you can REALLY meet this standard?

Do you ever forget? Here is a startling quote, "Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you ever get sick? "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

Counsels on Health. 1923 (37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

This is not a standard. This is crazy making.

This is like saying that unless you become a married bachelor you will be lost.

A married bachelor is separated from his wife - also a sin likely.

[cardw]

A married bachelor is separated from his wife - also a sin likely.

I think you're married until you're divorced. As far as I know you can't be married and a bachelor at the same time.

[Gerr]

To convince people that you don't need God to live a moral life. Furthermore, why should he bother those who are already on his side?

[cardw]

To convince people that you don't need God to live a moral life. Furthermore, why should he bother those who are already on his side?

And what if it's true that you can live a moral life without god?

Isn't that the point?

Remember I don't believe in Satan either. And exactly what do people on Satan's side do? Live moral lives?

[cardw]

Quote:

"Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you guys realize how crazy this is?

And when you add this quote.

Quote:

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

So what if I forget that I forgot and didn't repent? I would have my name blotted out of the book of life. This means that I have to repent of every wrong answer I gave on a test because I forgot and that's a sin.

This is why Christianity creates crazy people. Stop believing this nonsense!!

[Woody]

Quote:

But God can hold you accountable only for things you do intentionally. That's why a sinner's hope is ONLY in the perfect righteousness of Christ, to be received by faith.

We have SO much to be held accountable for. Just ONE sin will kill us. Thank God - HE takes it ALL on - on my behalf.

[fccool]

The entire concept of sin is quite odd, because it revolves around the laws that are bound to be broken by human limitations of knowledge and understanding.

Just think of it for a second. Imagine shooting a gun that's bound to miss the mark due to it's inherent imperfection. That's the idea behind "sin"... literally.

So, what's the "fix" for the sin? Is to accept someone's death in your behalf? How is that not a sin? I really don't understand how it can't be an obvious problem. How can immorality be erased by immoral act?

If you think that accepting innocent person dying instead of criminals constitutes a moral and acceptable act that fixes criminals, then perhaps we should do it more often. I bet there will be some idealistic volunteers. How can a criminal accepting someone's death to erase his moral responsibility constitute a moral and upright act on behalf of the criminal? Wouldn't it make the act of such acceptance immoral?

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

But God can hold you accountable only for things you do intentionally. That's why a sinner's hope is ONLY in the perfect righteousness of Christ, to be received by faith.

We have SO much to be held accountable for. Just ONE sin will kill us. Thank God - HE takes it ALL on - on my behalf.

We discussed this point in Sabbath School this morning. Adam had deliberately turned his back on God. Eve's first sinful action was to place her beloved husband into a state of rebellion and death - essentially, premeditated murder.

And did we see God thundering in Eden wrath upon these two, representing humanity in complete sinfulness? No.

God's first action was to come seeking the lost. He missed the companionship with them - and He wanted them back.

He called to them, and patiently waited for them to take those tentative, fearful steps from behind the trees, into the open with Himself.

Was mankind indicted here? Yes

Was the evidence presented? Yes

Was there a summary judgment of guilt made? Yes

God's first executive action? Lay the accountability where it belonged - upon Satan.

Did God say there would be consequences? Yes.

But God left a way of escape that any choosing may take...by showing Adam in the symbol of the first Gospel prophecy, the full brunt of the judgment against sin would fall upon the promised Redeemer in Genesis 3:15.

Sentence on the human race was carried out on Calvary's hill. Romans 5:12-18; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15)

Because of that point, people in the pre-Cross era could look forward in time, with full faith in God's promise to make it happen, they could leave sin behind and live by the power of His Word.

Because of that same point, people in the post-Cross era can look back at the assurance of the perfect sacrifice, and are free to live to a power greater than sin, and we can look forward with complete assurance Christ will do everything in His power to extract us from sin, and bring us with great joy before the throne of God (Jude 24).

1 John 2:1 says rather plainly we are to live primarily without sinning, with verse stating that if it does happen, we have our Paracletos coming to our aid to get us back on our journey.

Today, though, we buy into the devil's argument that sinful flesh just cannot be beat, rather than buy into the power of God's Word spoken by God to come to us, let us trust the power in that Word, and allow that Word to return back to God bearing the very thing God has spoken it for - our obedience and victorious living.

Maybe we've become accustomed to look for what is sinful in us, rather than encourage and build each other up into victory...

God misses His companionship with each one of us...He wants to take us back and restore that. It is evident, though, He is far more eager to get us back, than we are to get there.

Blessings,

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Do you guys realize how crazy this is?

Yes, it does sound crazy, until you realize that any imperfections cannot stand in the presence of a just and holy God. Again, that's why only the perfection of Jesus received by faith can qualify anyone for heaven.

Quote:

;

And when you add this quote.

Quote:

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life.

So what if I forget that I forgot and didn't repent? I would have my name blotted out of the book of life. This means that I have to repent of every wrong answer I gave on a test because I forgot and that's a sin.

This is why Christianity creates crazy people. Stop believing this nonsense!!

Yes, a distorted view of God can create crazy people. Will a God of love bar anyone from heaven for sins they have forgotten? I guaranty you that any sin for which God holds you accountable will be brought to mind by the Holy Spirit.

You can deny it and call it nonsense, Richard. But there IS a day of accounting. ESV | ‎Ec 12:14 "For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil." ESV | ‎2 Co 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

[cardw]

"Forgetfulness is sin. Many feel that no blame should be attached to forgetfulness."

Testimony to the Church (No. 21, private.). 1872 (14).

Originally Posted By: cardw

Do you guys realize how crazy this is?

Yes, it does sound crazy, until you realize that any imperfections cannot stand in the presence of a just and holy God. Again, that's why only the perfection of Jesus received by faith can qualify anyone for heaven.

[fccool]

Quote:

Yes, it does sound crazy, until you realize that any imperfections cannot stand in the presence of a just and holy God. Again, that's why only the perfection of Jesus received by faith can qualify anyone for heaven.

1) Perfection is not something you can vicariously receive. Something is either perfect or it is not. Imperfect can't vicariously receive perfection just because it want to be. You can't transfer "righteousness". I can't borrow some of your goodness and be better off. It obviously does not work that way.

2) The explanation about imperfection could not stand the presence of God is bogus... and is not corroborated by the Bible itself.

In Job's book Satan is in God's presence. What happened there? Was God missing at that meeting? Then who was speaking? Perhaps God was hiding behind the throne, so that Satan wouldn't feel uncomfortable? Perhaps you think that Satan is perfect and that's why he is ok in presence of God?

3) Receiving perfection by faith in Christ is like acing a Calculus test by thinking that Newton was a great guy. That's not what perfection is. Perfection is a state of being complete. Got news for you... perfection is a highly subjective idea. It's a judgement of a model of certain state of being.

How would you know that God is perfect? You've never seen God, you've read about God in a book. How would you know that the model for all of the existence is God? Well... you don't. It's an idea that you hold true by a belief in a certain ideal that happened to find attractive on bases of certain promises. Like you living forever, and only have to suffer for a short period of time here on earth.

So,to sum up, you have an imaginary standard, which you've never actually seen in your entire life, which you've read about in a book... that you hold as an ideal model of perfection, which you seem to impose as a standard for every person on the planet.

It's a very healthy worldview

I would very much be interested you defining the word "perfect". How would you define it?

[Gerr]

You better go back over this thread' date=' Richard. Nowhere is the claim ever made that God puts to death people who forget. If that were true, yes, that is totally crazy. Someone on this thread believes he can live a perfectly sinless life. That's how the forgetfulness & being sick is sin came about because these are the results of sin.

[Gerr]

1) Perfection is not something you can vicariously receive. Something is either perfect or it is not. Imperfect can't vicariously receive perfection just because it want to be. You can't transfer "righteousness". I can't borrow some of your goodness and be better off. It obviously does not work that way.

If what you are saying is true, then Christians are most to be pitied. No one is righteous enough or can achieve to the righteousness that can stand in the presence of God. But God has provided a way out - He offers the perfect righteousness of Christ to everyone to receive it by faith. I know it sounds too good to be true, but that is the Good News.

It's late and we have to catch a plane in early a.m. to respond to your other points.

[Gibs]

There is nothing so offensive to God as sin. Instead of making void the law of God by continuing in sin, every truly converted soul will be walking in the path of humble obedience to all of God's commandments. They will search the Scriptures that they might know the truth. Who hath bewitched the impenitent, the transgressor, that sin is chosen rather than obedience? It is the power of Satan that came to Adam and Eve in Eden, the deceiving, bewitching power of the fallen angel. . . . {UL 209.5}

How few talk about this great sacrifice of the life of Jesus to save the guilty sinner! If we appreciated this love manifested by God for our souls we would be elevated by taking hold of the merits of Jesus Christ, for without the righteousness of Christ man could not give to God perfect obedience. . . . {UL 209.6}

He condescended to this great sacrifice, not that sin in man should become a virtue, not that sin might be made righteousness. He took the steps that man is required to take in conversion. He went forward in baptism, and when He came up out of the water He kneeled down and offered up such a prayer to His Father as Heaven had never heard before. --Manuscript 25, July 14, 1887, "A Peculiar People." {UL 209.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

1) Perfection is not something you can vicariously receive. Something is either perfect or it is not. Imperfect can't vicariously receive perfection just because it want to be. You can't transfer "righteousness". I can't borrow some of your goodness and be better off. It obviously does not work that way.

Obviously, you don't believe God's way of saving man. As I started to respond in my previous post, this is the good news - God providing the necessary righteousness that can stand in His presence.

Quote:

2) The explanation about imperfection could not stand the presence of God is bogus... and is not corroborated by the Bible itself.

In Job's book Satan is in God's presence. What happened there? Was God missing at that meeting? Then who was speaking? Perhaps God was hiding behind the throne, so that Satan wouldn't feel uncomfortable? Perhaps you think that Satan is perfect and that's why he is ok in presence of God?

God has/had a purpose in not allowing His glory to consume sinners in His presence. But do read Mal 4:1-3, Rev 21

Quote:

3) Receiving perfection by faith in Christ is like acing a Calculus test by thinking that Newton was a great guy. That's not what perfection is. Perfection is a state of being complete. Got news for you... perfection is a highly subjective idea. It's a judgement of a model of certain state of being.

That is exactly how a sinner is going to ace the judgment - by having the perfect robe of Christ's righteousness.

Quote:

How would you know that God is perfect? You've never seen God, you've read about God in a book. How would you know that the model for all of the existence is God? Well... you don't. It's an idea that you hold true by a belief in a certain ideal that happened to find attractive on bases of certain promises. Like you living forever, and only have to suffer for a short period of time here on earth.

I dare say that everything you know you read or heard from somewhere. I wouldn't know a thing about God had He not revealed Himself. I believe in THE BOOK because it is not like any other book. It makes the most sense as to where I came from and where I'm going. It makes the most sense to me about the origin of evil. Only Someone who is omniscient can predict the future. Jesus was a historical figure. An empty tomb assures me that He is coming again. Everything I see in nature speaks of His wisdom and imnipotence and love. And there have been incidents in my life that convinces me beyond any doubt that He exists and cares about me.

Quote:

So,to sum up, you have an imaginary standard, which you've never actually seen in your entire life, which you've read about in a book... that you hold as an ideal model of perfection, which you seem to impose as a standard for every person on the planet.

There is nothing imaginary about the standard has given:

ESV | ‎Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

ESV | ‎Mt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” ‎37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ‎38 This is the great and first commandment. ‎39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ‎40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Quote:

It's a very healthy worldview

I would very much be interested you defining the word "perfect". How would you define it?

I can only give you the Bible definition of "perfect". BTW, you did provide a very good definition, i.e. "complete", which is a bible definition. Here are some Hebrew & Greek words that have been translated "perfect" in the KJV.

8549 תָּמִים [tamiym /taw·meem/] adj. From 8552; TWOT 2522d; GK 9459; 91 occurrences; AV translates as “without blemish” 44 times, “perfect” 18 times, “upright” eight times, “without spot” six times, “uprightly” four times, “whole” four times, “sincerely” twice, “complete” once, “full” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 complete, whole, entire, sound. 1A complete, whole, entire. 1B whole, sound, healthful. 1C complete, entire (of time). 1D sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity. 1E what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst).

Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

[miklal /mik·lawl/] n m. From 3634; TWOT 985e; GK 4817; AV translates as “perfection” once. 1 completeness, perfection.

Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

[tiklah /tik·law/] n f. From 3615; TWOT 982e; GK 9416; AV translates as “perfection” once. 1 perfection, completion, completeness.

Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

5046. τέλειος téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.

(I) Generally (James 1:4, 17, 25; 1 John 4:18 [cf. Heb. 9:11]; Sept.: Ex. 12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Matt. 5:48 [cf. Luke 6:36]; Matt. 19:21; Col. 1:28; 4:12; James 1:4; 3:2); the will of God (Rom. 12:2; Sept.: Gen. 6:9; 1 Kgs. 11:4). When used in a moral sense referring to God’s expectation of us, it means completely blameless. A “perfect gift” in James 1:17 means one that has all the necessary qualities. In James 1:4, “that ye may be perfect” means that you may keep yourself “unspotted from the world.” It has a similar meaning in Matt. 5:48; 19:21; Rom. 12:2; Col. 1:28; 4:12; James 3:2.

(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full–grown, of persons, meaning full–grown in mind and understanding (1 Cor. 14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1 Cor. 2:6; Phil. 3:15; Heb. 5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph. 4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1 Cor. 13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1 Cor. 2:6; 14:20; Eph. 4:13, 14; Phil. 3:15; Heb. 5:14).

(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Matt. 5:48; 19:21). God’s perfection is absolute; man’s is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.

(IV) Tó téleion, perfect, in the neut. means the complete one in contrast with tó ek mérous (ek [1537], of; mérous [3313], a part), that which is in part. Tó téleion, therefore, indicates the ultimate goal of heavenly perfection as contrasted with the immediate and merely partial experience of saints on earth (1 Cor. 13:10). In 1 John 4:18 hē teleía agápē ([26], love), the perfect love, means the love which is mature, not lacking boldness or confidence and therefore not hampered by the insecurity or anxiety which are characteristic of immature love.

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

[fccool]

Quote:

Obviously, you don't believe God's way of saving man. As I started to respond in my previous post, this is the good news - God providing the necessary righteousness that can stand in His presence.

I consider myself a rational person. For me to believe it, it first has to be a rational thought. I have trouble believing that God created us with that thought pattern, and then demanding us to think irrational and borderline-insane thoughts.

The idea that the only way for us to be "saved" from the doom that none of us wished upon ourselves but are born into this "Imperfection", is to make the most selfish choice in the universe and to choose another person to die instead of us who did not deserve to die - it's not only irrational, it's highly immoral.

Quote:

God has/had a purpose in not allowing His glory to consume sinners in His presence. But do read Mal 4:1-3, Rev 21

None of these texts talk about God's presence automatically consuming sinners. These verses are well-known, and talk about Judgement. In Adventist theology, these verses specifically talk about judgement by Christ himself. It's quite obvious that there were plenty of imperfection in presence of Christ.

You can't have it both. So, you reason, once again does not make sense. It's a double-speak. On one hand, the sin can't stand in the presence of God without diminishing... and on the other hand, God not allowing his presence to do that .

It's just a clever rationalization post-facto.

Quote:

That is exactly how a sinner is going to ace the judgment - by having the perfect robe of Christ's righteousness.

There's nothing "good" about these news. It sounds like a theology created by selfish people, and for selfish people.

First of all, God is not the direct offended party. If he truly gave this world to the people and creatures with free will, it's not up to him in this scenario to exercise forgiveness.

Imagine your co-worker walking over and punching you in your face as hard as he can, and then walking over to your boss and says "I repend, and I'll never do this again... please forgive me". The boss then says "Ok, your heart is pure, you are forgiven". Then, when you protest that there's no justice in this situation, and nothing really has been resolved - you are fired.

That's your idea of justice, believe it or not. God forgives... don't mind the offended party.

It's a theology created by selfish people, for selfish people who want to bypass paying what was due to those who they wronged by praying a prayer. And that's exactly what happens.

Quote:

I dare say that everything you know you read or heard from somewhere.

Sure, but in most cases I can point it you to a thing and say - Here's that thing. I could pull out a telescope and point you to a distant star, or a planet. I can give you a rationalization for certain knowledge. That's the difference.

Quote:

I wouldn't know a thing about God had He not revealed Himself.

But, he didn't reveal it to you. There's no proof that he revealed it to anyone. All you have is a cultural mythology about a group of people thousands years ago who attribute everything that happened to them in highly exaggerated manner to creator God who chosen them out of all people to rule the world as his special people. Does that sound familiar? In ancient times it was very common thing to do. Look at any culture, and you'll find similar stories. In fact, many ideas from Christianity borrow from these stories.

Almost every culture on earth has a story about how they are the true chosen people of God. Even Adventists are exclusively chosen people of God.

Quote:

I believe in THE BOOK because it is not like any other book. It makes the most sense as to where I came from and where I'm going.

All this book does is make up a Human-like Character with unlimited magical powers to do anything... and then attribute all of the good to it, and then puts the burden on solving all of the bad things on it, including punishing the bad people AFTER THEY DIE even though they reap all of the benefits during the life on earth. And then ironically it rewards all of the "good people" AFTER THEY DIE , even though they really live in poverty and servitude during their life on earth.

I don't know know about you, but it sounds like a typical master-slave religious order that was very common in antiquity.

I would expect the God of the universe to reveal himself in much more clear way than disjointed letters written by people for whom a wheelbarrow would be an emerging technology, and who would have a scientific knowledge comparable to a modern 7 year old.

I mean, it does make sense that we should trust these people to be right about God, even though they exaggerated quite a bit in their writings... from the supposed power of their country, to the supposed might of the enemies who enslaved and defeated them, to supposed predictions about the future that they actually written post-facto.

Quote:

It makes the most sense to me about the origin of evil.

It only makes sense if you are not thinking about it long enough.

First of all, the Christian interpretation of Satan completely contradicts the Jewish tradition of who or what the Satan is. In Jewish tradition, there is no "evil angel" named Satan. In Jewish tradition, THE Satan is a title given to the opposing party. Jews would explain that there is no single evil angel named Satan, and that The Satan title is actually given to many people and angels who would stand to oppose certain parties, at time demonstrably by God's own appointments... just like a district attorney would.

See the link below:

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation7.html

But, even if Jewish and Christian theology is reconciled, the origin of "evil" simply oversimplified hog-wash that could only be fed to little kids as an explanation. At least kids keep asking questions.

Christianity actually perverts and confuses the idea of "good" and "evil" all together. Good and evil, in actuality, are one and the same thing looked from two different perspectives. Good and evil is a subjective judgement from perspective of someone who perceives it. It's not a universal standard. It can't be. It's a standard in a specific context for a specific conscious being. Each sets of beings would then have their own standard of good and evil. For example, pain may be considered as a "bad/evil" concept. If one is constantly in pain, it's bad. At the same time, it's a good thing, because pain is telling your body that there's something wrong that needs to be fixing.

In that sense, evil is a judgement about deviation from a preferred standard.

For example, in Christian theology the Satan is evil because he saw God as unjust. Why is that evil? That's not "evil". That's merely a poor judgement. Are your children evil if you think that you don't give them something that they deserve? NO! They merely have incomplete and poor judgement.

It has nothing to do with free will. It has to do with lack of proper information and capacity to understand certain things clearly. For example, most kids think that their parents are unfair. As they grow up and mature, and gain more information and understanding, they come to appreciate their parents and see that what they are doing was indeed correct.

So, here where Christian idea about origin of evil is a non-sensical child's tale. Satan who was a perfect being with direct access to God... somehow misunderstands God's purpose and his purpose.

It's a contrived story. It's a very bad writing too. It makes sense for ancient mindset that constantly revolved around feuds and children killing their king fathers for power grab. It should not make sense to anyone who thinks clearly.

1) In most cases "evil" is a poor judgement. Poor judgement should be pitied and explained properly to make the judgement complete.

2) Christian explanation of evil comes from necessity to explain evil and reconcile it with existence of good God. But the explanation does not work. It does not make sense.

3) There's no way in Christian theology to explain natural evil, like exploding volcanos, or a tsunami that kills 250,000 people.

Quote:

Only Someone who is omniscient can predict the future.

Then why make it so vague? "Knowledge will increase" is not a future prediction. It's an educated guess. Likewise, there's no clear line in predicted events of the past, when all we get is a compiled book that predicts in the first chapter what happens in the latter chapter. There's no clear indication when these books were written, or even who wrote these. Most of the books are anonymous. The dates written in could be very easily written post-facto to validate the predicted events.

If we dug up an ancient book that predicted invention of TV or a computer... or some specific event or a person - that would make it very clear. Instead, we have a vague "predictions" that require you to fill the blanks to make sense. Of course these "will come true". You fill the blanks.

Quote:

Jesus was a historical figure.

Were there any contemporary of Jesus who would record the historical events supposedly happened? Jesus is mysteriously absent from contemporary history. And it seems like there's all of a sudden the explosion of writings about Jesus 50-70-100 years after his supposed death and resurrection.

I'm not saying that Jesus was not a historical figure. There may have been a Rabbi called Jesus in Yeshua at that time, but there's no contemporary historical sources to verify such claim.

Quote:

An empty tomb assures me that He is coming again.

There is no empty tomb. There is a claim of empty tomb by the writers who needed to finish the story on a happy and hopeful note. If someone is writing a religious literature about A God who is put to death, what else would you expect? Would you expect a sad ending? Read any other myths, there are plenty of resurrected characters.

Quote:

Everything I see in nature speaks of His wisdom and imnipotence and love.

The nature is a mystery, and surely has the "divine vibe". But automatically ascribing that divine vibe to the Jewish God (monotheistic religion), which then branches out to Christian God Jesus, and later takes on the Trinitarian nature - that's a bit of a stretch.

There's no need to believe in a seemingly contrived book to see and appreciate the transcendent mystery of the Universe and being.

Quote:

And there have been incidents in my life that convinces me beyond any doubt that He exists and cares about me.

Sure, at one time there were in my life too , until I realized that I simply impose a patten of interpretation on events that could be explained otherwise.

I would not imagine that these events in your life had Jesus appearing before you and saying "Everything you Believe about the Bible is true". In the very least that should warrant your personal belief.

Quote:

I can only give you the Bible definition of "perfect". BTW, you did provide a very good definition, i.e. "complete", which is a bible definition. Here are some Hebrew & Greek words that have been translated "perfect" in the KJV.

Complete is a terrible definition of "perfect" in context of what you are describing. An atomic bomb is "complete", but it's certainly not "perfect" in context of what you are trying to do with that word.

Perfection in your context is the idea of "God says that it is". It's a God's subjective judgement.

[fccool]

Quote:

There is nothing imaginary about the standard has given:

ESV | ‎Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

ESV | ‎Mt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” ‎37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ‎38 This is the great and first commandment. ‎39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ‎40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

I'd like to point this out to you once again. If you've never seen God or Jesus, or even people who wrote the Bible - you have to imagine these things.

In that sense, you are believing in imaginary things that perhaps have connection to some real world.

What I'm saying is that there is no need for imaginary things to do the real ones. There's no need to have a promise of heaven to strive for good things, there's no need for thinking that someone died for you to realize that you should care for other people. All you need to look at yourself and see what you want and how you want to be treated. It does not work in the case of masochist, for example, that's why the "Golden principle" should not be a golden rule... but there's no need to believe unsubstantiated things.

If Christian God really exists, and He is truly good, then there's no underlying reason to conjure up a "reconciliation" by means of cult fanaticism revolving around a book that was written 2000 years ago. It's very difficult to believe such book for rational people living today who know and understand the history of religion and the abuse of power that follows it.

Just consider this. If Adventism or Christianity was not true, what else would Adventist Clergy do? Most of them have no other useful training other than giving you lengthy lectures about what happened in the land of Palestine 2000 years ago, and how you should apply it to your life today. The moment they don't believe, or even modify their beliefs slightly, they would be out of job. There's a top-down pressure to maintain established dogma no-matter what.

The religion exists as long as it serves the structure that serves the clergy. The moment the structure dissipates, the "religion" ceases to exist.

True knowledge is universal. It is not bound by institutional walls. It is self-evident, and it can be gained without supernatural per-requisites. There's no need for true God to punish people who are suspicious of irrational belief, or those who desire better explanation or evidence.

[Gibs]

All will meet the Great Creator one day and it won't be many years now, and you can mark those words!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.