Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Isn't there ample Jewish history that acknowledges the existence of Jesus while disavowing anything Supernatural about His mission or being?

So we are going to take their word for the existence of Jesus, but we now discount this same word for the Supernatural aspect of his mission.

Seems rather inconsistent to me.

Nonsense, there's nothing inconsistent about demonstrating from Jesus opponents that even they believed He existed. You can acknowledge that I exist from my posts but that doesn't mean that you have to like who I am or agree with what I say.So either Jesus did or did not perform miracles. Since there is no contemporary,conflicting evidence to the contrary what's the problem with believing that He was no ordinary carpenter? Why did so many people give up their lives for what they knew was not true? The historical evidence we have of Jesus and His opponents show that they didn't disbelieve that He did miracles. They simply didn't believe that He was from God,period. If the Bible story of Jesus is accurate and factually true, what would you think,Rich?

[cardw]

But we still have the supernatural witness of changed lives for all who want to investigate for themselves. When a murderer is changed into a lover overnight and a drug addict goes suddenly clean after hearing the gospel message is there no observable miracle? When a thief is transformed into a giver and the unfaithful becomes dedicated to unflinching committment after merely listening to the promises of God in the Bible doesn't that demonstrate a kind of power not found in any naturalistic explanation?

[doug yowell]

And there's the rub. Christianity defines God's Love as slavery.

And anti-Christians define God's definition of slavery as love. It still rubs both ways doesn't it?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So we are going to take their word for the existence of Jesus, but we now discount this same word for the Supernatural aspect of his mission.

Seems rather inconsistent to me.

Nonsense, there's nothing inconsistent about demonstrating from Jesus opponents that even they believed He existed. You can acknowledge that I exist from my posts but that doesn't mean that you have to like who I am or agree with what I say.So either Jesus did or did not perform miracles. Since there is no contemporary,conflicting evidence to the contrary what's the problem with believing that He was no ordinary carpenter?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And there's the rub. Christianity defines God's Love as slavery.

And anti-Christians define God's definition of slavery as love. It still rubs both ways doesn't it?

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

[joeb]

And there's the rub. Christianity defines God's Love as slavery.

Actually, Christianity offers you a choice of who your master is going to be. You're already a slave, you just don't know it. You're following a master who is so good at deception that he is holding you in chains that you cannot break on your own and telling you that you're "free" at the same time. He's also lying about his opponent to you, smearing his character. You just happen to believe everything he's telling you.

God says I'll give you an option that makes you are free to choose your master. If you choose it I'll set you free from sin. Then I'll be your master instead of someone who hates you.

Either choice you make you're going to have a master. You can't get out of it. Both sides(choices) are far more powerful than you or I.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And there's the rub. Christianity defines God's Love as slavery.

Actually, Christianity offers you a choice of who your master is going to be. You're already a slave, you just don't know it. You're following a master who is so good at deception that he is holding you in chains that you cannot break on your own and telling you that you're "free" at the same time. He's also lying about his opponent to you, smearing his character. You just happen to believe everything he's telling you.

God says I'll give you an option that makes you are free to choose your master. If you choose it I'll set you free from sin. Then I'll be your master instead of someone who hates you.

Either choice you make you're going to have a master. You can't get out of it. Both sides(choices) are far more powerful than you or I.

I don't know about you, but I was never free as a Christian. I go by the evidence. I have learned a painful lesson that Christianity is not to be trusted.

The people who have lied to me are Christians. I know because Christianity does not deliver what it promises and it makes excuses instead of providing evidence. That's the red flag of every con.

[doug yowell]

There is no evidence at all that Christianity is the vehicle for this type of change. The reason is that this type of change happens with non-believers as well. And it's based on the simple fact that life is better when you aren't on drugs, stealing other people's stuff, and killing people.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There is no evidence at all that Christianity is the vehicle for this type of change. The reason is that this type of change happens with non-believers as well. And it's based on the simple fact that life is better when you aren't on drugs, stealing other people's stuff, and killing people.

Knowing that something is better doesn't empower one to act on what they know is better. Thus, you and I and everyone ever born still habitually commits something that we wish we wouldn't do, something that we know is neither good for us or actually hurts someone else.

[fccool]

One of the greatest films that was made on this planet... Tarkovky's Stalker actually deals with this issue of religion and how it developed. I think that it reflects on Tarkovsky's struggles and dissatisfaction with orthodox Christianity later in life. Many people believe that the film is about Communism-Socialism, and I guess you can make that parallel in terms of ideology, but I believe he dug deeper. He really hit well at the core of the idea of "faith" and its necessity to those who find themselves dependent on it.

You can watch the film here (turn on CC for english subtitles).

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYEfJhkPK7o&wide=1

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUHBgqx8YP8&wide=1

[John317]

If Christian God really exists, and He is truly good, then there's no underlying reason to conjure up a "reconciliation" by means of cult fanaticism revolving around a book that was written 2000 years ago. It's very difficult to believe such book for rational people living today who know and understand the history of religion and the abuse of power that follows it.

Are you claiming that it's unreasonable to believe that the God of the Bible inspired certain men to write the Scriptures?

The Bible doesn't teach "reconciliation" by means of cult fanaticism. It teaches reconciliation by faith/trust in the God who is described in the Bible.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Just consider this. If Adventism or Christianity was not true, what else would Adventist Clergy do? Most of them have no other useful training other than giving you lengthy lectures about what happened in the land of Palestine 2000 years ago, and how you should apply it to your life today. The moment they don't believe, or even modify their beliefs slightly, they would be out of job. There's a top-down pressure to maintain established dogma no-matter what.

But this doesn't explain how Christianity and Adventism came into being in the first place.

And if you study the events of the last 100 years, and especially in the last 30 years, you'll notice that this so-called "top-down pressure" doesn't keep people from having many different beliefs if they choose to have them.

[JoeMo]

Getting back to the topic at hand, even though the Bible makes it abundantly clear that we are saved solely by grace, IMO grace is not simply forgiveness of sins and eternal life, it is also the power to overcome.

"To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy — to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. (Jude 24-25)

[John317]

One of the greatest films that was made on this planet...

It depends on one's viewpoint.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Tarkovky's Stalker actually deals with this issue of religion and how it developed. I think that it reflects on Tarkovsky's struggles and dissatisfaction with orthodox Christianity later in life.

Yes, it's similar to Pilgrim's Progress, except that it views Christianity from a negative viewpoint.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Many people believe that the film is about Communism-Socialism, and I guess you can make that parallel in terms of ideology, but I believe he dug deeper. He really hit well at the core of the idea of "faith" and its necessity to those who find themselves dependent on it.

You can watch the film here (turn on CC for english subtitles).

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYEfJhkPK7o&wide=1

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUHBgqx8YP8&wide=1

I'm about half way through the second part. It's definitely a well made film. However, that fact is not an evidence of truth. About all you can say for sure about it is that it's an excellent piece of art-- perhaps a great human construct. Yet just because it's a good film is no argument in itself that its "message" is true. Like Waiting for Godot, it simply shows that it's the product of good writers and film-makers who are able to illustrate well their idea that Christianity and the belief in God is illusory. But then one could just as well say that the film's message itself is a fiction.

I think it would be foolish to accept as real the ideas illustrated in this fiction over against the mass of textual, historical and prophetical evidence of the Bible.

[John317]

Quote:

Christ has made every provision for the sanctification of his church. He has made abundant provision for every soul to have such grace and strength that he will be more than a conqueror in the warfare against sin. The Saviour is wounded afresh and put to open shame when his people pay no heed to his word. He came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in his power his people might also lead lives of sinlessness. He desires them by practicing the principles of truth to show to the world that God's grace has power to sanctify the heart. Atlantic Union Gleaner, Jan 17, 1906

Quote:

Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901). {6BC 1118.10}

Quote:

Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

Quote:

You can see the condition on which you become the children of promise, and receive the love of God. Jesus knew that of yourself you could not obey God's law; for you were sold under sin; therefore he came to our world to bring to you moral power, that through faith in his name you might live. He brings his divine power to combine with your human efforts, that through his righteousness appropriated to yourself, you can keep his law. R&H July 29, 1890

Quote:

The work of overcoming is in our hands, but we are not to overcome in our own name or strength; for of ourselves we cannot keep the commandments of God. The Spirit of God must help our infirmities. Christ has become our sacrifice and surety. He has become sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Through faith in his name, he imputes unto us his righteousness, and it becomes a living principle in our life. ....Christ imputes to us his sinless character, and presents us to the Father in his own purity. There are many who think that it is impossible to escape from the power of sin, but the promise is that we may be filled with all the fullness of God. We aim too low. The mark is much higher. Our minds need expansion, that we may comprehend the significance of the provision of God. We are to reflect the highest attributes of the character of God. ...We are to keep the commandments and live. {RH, July 12, 1892 par. 5}

[Gibs]

Yes, John317, Christ within is our one and only hope and the Way, of which He made easy and not hard at all. Coming out of the world is to Him is a must.

"But with all the rich promises of God, how many seem wholly absorbed in the things of earth. They are all taken up with the thought of what shall we eat, what shall we drink, and wherewithal shall we be clothed? God would not have us center our minds upon the things of this world. We are not to seek for our selfish gratification, but to center the mind upon Christ. Are you separating yourself from everything that will separate you from God? If you are in close connection with God you will talk of Him, you will have an abundance in your heart of the things of heaven. . . . {TMK 119.4}

The Lord is waiting to do great things for His children who trust in Him. Do we expect to dwell with Christ in the eternal world? Then we must dwell with Him here, that He may help us in every time of trial and temptation and make us ready for His coming in the clouds of heaven. . . . The beauty and grace of Christ must be woven into our characters. We cannot keep Christ so apart from our lives as we do, and yet be fitted for His companionship in heaven. He is to be the all in all of heaven, and must be our all in all upon earth. {TMK 119.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Both the Bible and the SOP agree. Let's look first at the Bible's promises, and in the next post, at the amazing promises in EGW's writings:

2 Peter 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

1 Cor. 10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Peter 2:21-22(ESV)--

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. [22] He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1 John 3:2-9

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. [3] And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

[4] Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Rev. 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

2 Cor. 10:5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Galatians 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

[John317]

We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him. {1T 144.2}

If you will stand under the bloodstained banner of Prince Emmanuel, faithfully doing His service, you need never yield to temptation; for One stands by your side who is able to keep you from falling. {OHC 19.7}

God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {DA 311.2}

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3}

"Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. {DA 664.4}

We cannot keep ourselves from sin for one moment. Every moment we are dependent upon God. {MH 179.4}

Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God's law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction. {MH 180.2}

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the word of God. By trusting in God's promises, He received power to obey God's commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage. To every temptation His answer was, "It is written." So God has given us His word wherewith to resist evil. Exceeding great and precious promises are ours, that by these we "might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. {MH 181.1}

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 22, 1885.

But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1}

Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}

Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . {OHC 76}

To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. {RH, September 27, 1906 par. 4}

Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. {RH, August 28, 1894 par. 4}

See COL 330-332.

When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. {3SM 427.1}

[phkrause]

Excellent posts John, thanks for a perspective that's up lifting, not bringing us down.

[fccool]

Quote:

Are you claiming that it's unreasonable to believe that the God of the Bible inspired certain men to write the Scriptures?

The Bible doesn't teach "reconciliation" by means of cult fanaticism. It teaches reconciliation by faith/trust in the God who is described in the Bible.

Faith/trust needs to be deconstructed. These two words create smokescreen behind what these really mean.

To be a "Faithful/trustful" Christian, one is expected to be conformed to certain CULTure described in the Bible. That's why virtually every single Christian church in US have very similar pattern of worship... it's a cultic form of fanaticism towards largely imaginary things, and the structure that revolves around these.

It's all built around vivid imagination of some people.

If faith was enough, then there would be no need for Church. The "magical powers of Christ and the Bible" would just heal anyone who wants to be healed. There would not be people like CardW who struggled their entire lives only to realize that there's nothing there and they imagined it all along.

Quote:

But this doesn't explain how Christianity and Adventism came into being in the first place.

Of course it does. It's a movement that came out of extreme fanaticism - you know the Harold Camping type. When they got it wrong, did they admit it? No! They just made some other explanation, and a fanatic girl admitted it through visions.

Unlike you like to believe, there was whole movements of these people meeting in houses crawling on the floor in uncontrollable laughter. There were court and police reports that would describe what was going... and it could only be described as extreme fanaticism.

But that's besides the point that I was trying to make.

Quote:

And if you study the events of the last 100 years, and especially in the last 30 years, you'll notice that this so-called "top-down pressure" doesn't keep people from having many different beliefs if they choose to have them.

Sure, the same could be said of the Catholic Church, and Muslim faith. What's your point here?

[John317]

So far Christianity is powerless to change sexual orientation and to change a pedophile.

In the secular world we don't try to change sexual orientation and we keep pedophiles from children instead of asking god to forgive them and change them and then putting them in pastoral positions shifting them from one parish to another. This belief that Christianity can change these men has caused harm to children. It's time to stop this naive belief in Christianity when it is clear that it is powerless.

This is false.

I've personally seen and experienced changes in these ways. Granted, the change usually takes a long time, but it's untrue to say that it doesn't happen as a result of faith in Christ.

Whether it happens depends on a person's total commitment to Christ and whether they continually choose to die to self and abide in Christ.

See the book, "That Kind Can Never Change!" Can They...? by Victor J. Adamson. Huntington House Publishers, 2000.

Adamson gave an interview a few years ago on ClubAdventist.

[John317]

]And if you study the events of the last 100 years, and especially in the last 30 years, you'll notice that this so-called "top-down pressure" doesn't keep people from having many different beliefs if they choose to have them.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Sure, the same could be said of the Catholic Church, and Muslim faith. What's your point here?

My point is that if you do a thorough study of the history of the church-- whether Protestant, Catholic or Adventist--your theory about "top-down pressure" doesn't come close to explaining how those churches and their theologies came about.

[John317]

Quote:

Are you claiming that it's unreasonable to believe that the God of the Bible inspired certain men to write the Scriptures?

The Bible doesn't teach "reconciliation" by means of cult fanaticism. It teaches reconciliation by faith/trust in the God who is described in the Bible.

Faith/trust needs to be deconstructed. These two words create smokescreen behind what these really mean.

The Bible is clear that people are put in right relationship with God by His unmerited favor through faith/confidence in Jesus Christ. So it is not a matter of "cult fanaticism" but of a loving, obedient, personal relationship with Christ.

Have you ever experienced this?

Perhaps the reason you see "faith/trust" in Christ as a smokescreen is that you never experienced faith/trust in Christ.

[fccool]

Quote:

I think it would be foolish to accept as real the ideas illustrated in this fiction over against the mass of textual, historical and prophetical evidence of the Bible.

John, I hate to disappoint you, but the historical, prophetical and textual "evidence" you are talking about is largely self-referencing "fill in your blanks" that this movie is actually trying to demonstrate.

These Zone in the movie exists only because people believe in it. The more government persecutes them for believing, the more real Zone gets for everyone and the more legends it generates.

I find it VERY ironic that you would dismiss this film as some sort of "pseudo truth", when it merely attempts to metaphorically communicate the nature of belief and faith.

For you to have faith, you have to largely imagine things. If you had any real evidence, you would not need any faith. You would just point to the evidence. But you don't. Instead you make up imaginary evidence through a belief that you require to fill in with blanks, and then you present it as "real".

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

If you seen the end of the film I think there's a very powerful statement Tarkovsky is making. There are unexplainable things, but there's no need to explain them, especially if one does not have any ability to do so.

So, yes. The girl perhaps can push the glasses of the table with her mind, but of itself it is a film - which is a "Zone" of a sorts that requires us to believe that it's possible. But there's zero need to explain it, and that's why the film just ends.

[fccool]

Quote:

The Bible is clear that people are put in right relationship with God by His unmerited favor through faith/confidence in Jesus Christ. So it is not a matter of "cult fanaticism" but of a loving, obedient, personal relationship with Christ.

John, don't you see what you are doing? You are believing first, and then you reifying your own belief. You are imagining those things by reading them from the book, and you are labeling it "real experience". It's not! There's nothing "real" about such experience.

Do you understand the difference between a REAL experience, and IMAGINARY experience.

If so, please let me know what is it in your "experiencing Christ" that's REAL and not imaginary and imposed a certain supernatural interpretation?

Quote:

Have you ever experienced this?

I thought I did, but then I realized that it's merely my imagination.

Quote:

Perhaps the reason you see "faith/trust" in Christ as a smokescreen is that you never experienced faith/trust in Christ.

This is the most ridiculous statement ever . You can replace Christ with just about anything else imaginary in that sentence. Let's try Buddha.

Perhaps the reason you see "faith/trust" in Buddha as a smokescreen is that you never experienced faith/trust in Buddha.

Let's try Allah

Perhaps the reason you see "faith/trust" in Allah as a smokescreen is that you never experienced faith/trust in Allah.

Do you see what's happening here?

[John317]

I think it would be foolish to accept as real the ideas illustrated in this fiction over against the mass of textual, historical and prophetical evidence of the Bible.

Originally Posted By: fccool

John, I hate to disappoint you, but the historical, prophetical and textual "evidence" you are talking about is largely self-referencing "fill in your blanks" that this movie is actually trying to demonstrate.

Yes, it is trying to demonstrate that, but it's absurd to believe that a film based on someone's imagination can demonstrate that the Bible's prophecies and history is "self-referencing." All the film can do is try to illustrate the concept of self-referencing, but it can provide no evidence that this is what the Bible is actually doing. You choose to believe the film is right, but that is your opinion, your faith-- not a demonstration of truth.

In order to see if the Bible's evidence is merely self-referencing, you have to study the Bible and compare what it says with what we know from history, archeology, linguistics, the ancient manuscripts, human experience, etc. It's silly to think that this can be done by watching a film based on someone's imaginary, fictional experiences. At best all we can say is that the film is an illutration of someone's theory or idea.