Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[M. T. Cross]

Sky,

Scientists through George Lucas, who was inspired by The Great Force to write and produce the 6 films of truth have properly told that the life is a force.

Just watch Star Wars, based on true story, and you'll see what life is and how to properly know the force.

Star Wars is the true and only way to the force that's life.

Insert Star Wars quotes here.

To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness, Padawan. Be a candle, or the night.

--YODA, Dark Rendezvous

No! Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.

--YODA, Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

--YODA, Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

[Gerr]

So, yes. A modern evidence would be great.

Look up into the starry sky and contemplate the vast universe. Look into the cell and contemplate the DNA. Look into the atom and contemplate what holds it together.

You know that + charged particles attract - charged particles, and that like charges repel each other. What keeps the negatively charged electrons from repelling each other and fly off? The positively charged nucleus? Why do the negatively charged electrons that are attracted to the positively charged nucleus not collapse on to the nucleus? And how are the positively charged protons in the nucleus that repel each other held together? Oh, yeah, physicists call it "strong force", as though that should explain it. They, of course, reject the explanation Christ "upholds them by the word of His power", and that "in Him all things hold together".

?

[Gerr]

This is the level of hearsay. This isn't evidence of anything other than the ability of ancient writers to tell fantastic stories.

Unless you saw the event firsthand, everything is hearsay.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: fc

So, yes. A modern evidence would be great.

Look up into the starry sky and contemplate the vast universe. Look into the cell and contemplate the DNA. Look into the atom and contemplate what holds it together.

You know that + charged particles attract - charged particles, and that like charges repel each other. What keeps the negatively charged electrons from repelling each other and fly off? The positively charged nucleus? Why do the negatively charged electrons that are attracted to the positively charged nucleus not collapse on to the nucleus? And how are the positively charged protons in the nucleus that repel each other held together? Oh, yeah, physicists call it "strong force", as though that should explain it. They, of course, reject the explanation Christ "upholds them by the word of His power", and that "in Him all things hold together".

?

Did Jesus sign his name on DNA somewhere? Which of the thousands of gods created all these things.

This is not evidence of any claims of divinity by any god since there is absolutely no evidence that any god created these.

Yes, it's complex, and it's transcendent, but we are no closer to knowing who or what started it all because whoever, if there is a who, hasn't really come forward to let us know.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is the level of hearsay. This isn't evidence of anything other than the ability of ancient writers to tell fantastic stories.

Unless you saw the event firsthand, everything is hearsay.

You're right and I require sufficient evidence first hand before I make any claims.

[phkrause]

But he did this by "Faith" not sight I say again. He still had to believe it was God! Just like you and I.

[Igakusei]

Look up into the starry sky and contemplate the vast universe. Look into the cell and contemplate the DNA. Look into the atom and contemplate what holds it together.

This argument shoots itself in the foot right off the bat. What prevents whatever God is made out of from falling apart? If the universe is so intricately complex that it requires a designer, then wouldn't that designer likely be even more complex?

Obviously an infinite regression of increasingly complex designers is silly, but I suppose you can skirt that problem by arbitrarily declaring that there must be an "uncaused cause" and call it God.

Unfortunately, an uncaused cause could be any one of a huge number of hypothetical things, not all of which are even intelligent. We've discovered that complexity can arise through natural processes, but even if you put your foot down really hard and insist that there's some arbitrary limit of natural complexity and that your uncaused cause solves the problem you've just created, you still haven't drawn a line from there to Yahweh.

[Igakusei]

Oh, yeah, physicists call it "strong force", as though that should explain it.

It's idiopathic, Gerry. I've actually seen this question asked of a few physicists, and without exception every one of them stated honestly that physics doesn't have an answer to that question (and if we ever answer it it will only create a new question one level deeper), so it's a little disingenuous of you to (as it comes across to me) imply that anyone is trying to sweep anything under the rug and pretend that we've found all the answers. The search for knowledge presses ever forward, and I believe that when confronted with a lack of evidence the appropriate response is something along the lines of "I don't know," rather than picking your favorite just-so story and pretending you know more than anyone else does.

I can come up with no shortage of explanations for "why" the strong force is what it is, and I suspect that any professional physicist could come up with many more plausible ideas than I can. What I resist the temptation to do, in the face of a lack of reliable evidence, is to declare that any one of those ideas is the right one when the reality is that there simply isn't any reliable evidence that supports any of them at this point.

[JoeMo]

I'm going thu the posts starting with #611933 (cardw's post from Fri at 11:10 PM MST). What an amazing exchange! cardw, you"explained" yourself better than you ever have before. Thanks for that. For the record, I thoroughly respect your position.

MT, your description of what spirituality brings to any believer's life was perfect! I loved the "brown sugar" on oatmeal allegory. I've got 3 more pages of posts to read; but wanted to say how cool your posts were.

[Gerr]

In that case, then, it comes down to a matter of choice, doesn't it, since you can not more demonstrate that there is no Designer than I can although there is design everywhere. The things I have cited either had to be "idiopathic" or an "uncaused cause" or an "unmoved mover" started the DNA & the universe in toto & holds together the atoms. I chose to believe that the macrocosmic universe and the microcosmic world of the cell and the atom are God's footprints of His presence.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I have had one or two experiences in my life that have proven to ME the existence of the deity I honour. They were simply powerful enough experiences that I simply could not deny them.

Exactly. I have had similar spiritual experience that I can't even describe much less explain. I call them "spiritual" but being completely honest and fair to folks like fc and cardw, they could have been from my imagination or from natural causes that I am not familiar with. To this day, the only way I can explain them is manifestations from the spiritual realm.

Just two weeks ago at our church, a visitor came in, suffering from an seeing disability called macular degeneration. She was pretty much blind in one eye; and she only had peripheral vision out of the other. She asked for prayer. After we prayed for her, she could see well enough yo read signs on the opposite wall of the church and see the street from the church entrance. She paid no attention to the rest of the church service. She just walked around the church, reading every notice on the walls and 3 weeks' worth of church bulletins. She came back the next week - drove herself.

People want "proof"; otherwise they think I'm slinging a load of BS. How do you prove something like this? How do you "prove the person wasn't faking it? People want a medical certification. I don't even know if we'll ever see that woman again - she was a visitor. Besides, the only way I could see to prove it is to disprove every other possible explanation; and it would be a "miracle" by default. It is practically impossible to prove a negative.

Stuff like this happens at our church frequently (well - like 4 or 5 times a year).

What is the explanation for a spontaneous healing from macular degeneration right at the time people were praying? Helluva coincidence.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Science has not been able to explain what "life" is and they never will be able to unless they become like little children and accept the Scriptures.

The scriptures are not an explanation. They are a claim. And that's all they are worth in regards to the origin of life. You quote these because you think they have power. They don't. It just confirms that you don't get it and are relying on superstition.

This idea that I have to be simple minded to "get it" is an excuse to stay simple minded. It would explain the general lack of understanding of basic reason among advocates of simplemindedness.

Card, the very fact that your heart is beating in your chest is a witness against you of the presence and power of God. You and I were taught by our school teachers that the heart was an involuntary muscle but in actual fact the heart cannot beat once without a command. It is not by our will that the heart beats. It beats by the will of its Maker.

Unless you are a pantheist who believes that the heart beats by itself, thus deifying man or nature for that matter.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: fc

So, yes. A modern evidence would be great.

Look up into the starry sky and contemplate the vast universe. Look into the cell and contemplate the DNA. Look into the atom and contemplate what holds it together.

You know that + charged particles attract - charged particles, and that like charges repel each other. What keeps the negatively charged electrons from repelling each other and fly off? The positively charged nucleus? Why do the negatively charged electrons that are attracted to the positively charged nucleus not collapse on to the nucleus? And how are the positively charged protons in the nucleus that repel each other held together? Oh, yeah, physicists call it "strong force", as though that should explain it. They, of course, reject the explanation Christ "upholds them by the word of His power", and that "in Him all things hold together".

?

Amen.

Most scientists are pantheists without knowing it. They deify nature as if nature had its own powers.

It is the Spirit of God who is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all.

sky

[skyblue888]

In that case, then, it comes down to a matter of choice, doesn't it, since you can not more demonstrate that there is no Designer than I can although there is design everywhere. The things I have cited either had to be "idiopathic" or an "uncaused cause" or an "unmoved mover" started the DNA & the universe in toto & holds together the atoms. I chose to believe that the macrocosmic universe and the microcosmic world of the cell and the atom are God's footprints of His presence.

Well said.

sky :)

[Igakusei]

It is not by our will that the heart beats. It beats by the will of its Maker.

sky, I don't know where you heard this from but it's flatly incorrect. Every aspect of our heartbeats can be explained by chemistry, no voodoo, vitalism, or other form of magic is required. In fact, if you take stem cells in a petri dish and add the appropriate hormones to them to cause them to differentiate into heart muscle, they'll actually start beating on their own in the petri dish. Because that's what heart cells have been programmed by evolution to do, on their own, independent of either your will or any god's.

Is God making this cycle happen?

[cardw]

In that case, then, it comes down to a matter of choice, doesn't it, since you can not more demonstrate that there is no Designer than I can although there is design everywhere. The things I have cited either had to be "idiopathic" or an "uncaused cause" or an "unmoved mover" started the DNA & the universe in toto & holds together the atoms. I chose to believe that the macrocosmic universe and the microcosmic world of the cell and the atom are God's footprints of His presence.

There is complexity, but I wouldn't call it design because there's some rather poor designs in nature. It is exactly as it should be if evolution is active. You have some things that work well and they tend to survive and you have some things that don't do so well and they tend to not survive. Nature would argue against a designer.

This need to place an imaginary god as the force behind it has no basis in evidence.

You may choose to make this claim, but reality is not a matter of choice.

[Igakusei]

In that case, then, it comes down to a matter of choice, doesn't it, since you can not more demonstrate that there is no Designer than I can

You're confusing the issue. You're claiming that the universe was designed by one specific entity who first appears in human history as an insignificant tribal god in the hills of bronze-age Palestine, and I'm saying that the evidence you've provided in support of that claim is extremely dubious.

I don't think the universe was designed in the same way that I don't think pixies or leprechauns exist, but I'm not claiming absolute certainty on the matter as my beliefs are always subject to change pending future discoveries.

So I'm saying "It might be designed, it might not, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments for any particular designer or creative natural process."

You're saying "It was created by X, Y years ago," and you ignore entire fields of science that disagree with your specific claims.

Now you're painting the choice between my response and your response as something like a coin flip, but it's not. There are an infinite variety of possible explanations for why the universe is the way it is, and choosing a particular one sans good evidence or reasoning is not the equivalent to withholding judgement until we have something more reliable to go on.

[cardw]

Card, the very fact that your heart is beating in your chest is a witness against you of the presence and power of God. You and I were taught by our school teachers that the heart was an involuntary muscle but in actual fact the heart cannot beat once without a command. It is not by our will that the heart beats. It beats by the will of its Maker.

Unless you are a pantheist who believes that the heart beats by itself, thus deifying man or nature for that matter.

You are projecting your own need to have an answer. An atheist doesn't operate on belief. When things are too complex to understand we simply say, "I don't know."

I don't have a need to give mystery a name or provide some pantheistic explanation. I have no need for deities pantheistic or otherwise. That's your need. A-theism includes a-pan-theism.

When you claim that something exists, it is up to you to demonstrate proof that it does. So far none of you have been able to do this.

[skyblue888]

Do we have the life principle within ourselves so that we are self-sufficient? This is the lie that Lucifer taught in the courts of Heaven. Somehow he was able to convince many angels that they had the life principle within themselves and that they were independent of Christ their Creator!

Lucifer was the father of pantheistic theories.

We are pantheists if we attribute to nature what belongs to God.

"Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Ministry of Healing,397.

"For with You is the Fountain of life; in Your light shall we see light." Psalm 36:9.

I know these words mean nothing to you but His words are not without effect no matter what we may say or claim.

sky

[cardw]

I know these words mean nothing to you but His words are not without effect no matter we may say or claim.

sky

This is basically a belief in magic. This is just superstition.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I know these words mean nothing to you but His words are not without effect no matter we may say or claim.

sky

This is basically a belief in magic. This is just superstition.

Superstition is to attribute to nature that which belongs to God.

sky

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I know these words mean nothing to you but His words are not without effect no matter we may say or claim.

sky

This is basically a belief in magic. This is just superstition.

Maybe superstition, but not magic.

Magic is not really all that magical. Its the manipulation of energy. Most of what we call technology or science would have been considered magic (sometimes punishable by death) 200 years ago.

[M. T. Cross]

"Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Ministry of Healing,397.

I am always so confused when people throw out EGW statements to atheists or non SDA's period. I mean if the person does not believe in the Bible in the first place, why would someone use her writings as leverage for their argument.......... I am confused.

[cardw]

I know these words mean nothing to you but His words are not without effect no matter we may say or claim.

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is basically a belief in magic. This is just superstition.

Superstition is to attribute to nature that which belongs to God.

Quoting the Bible as if it has super powers to reveal truth is superstition.

[Igakusei]

Superstition is to attribute to nature that which belongs to God.

sky