Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Ministry of Healing,397. I am always so confused when people throw out EGW statements to atheists or non SDA's period. I mean if the person does not believe in the Bible in the first place, why would someone use her writings as leverage for their argument.......... I am confused. Very likely, skyblue is using the quote to explain his belief system, not that he believes you will accept the quote as authoritative. But do you believe life is in some way mysterious and that it is sacred? If you have a child, do you believe his or her life is in some sense "sacred"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 ..Joshua commanded the Sun to stand still, he did not command the Earth to stop spinning. Further, there are dozens of these verses referring to the stability and flat shape of the Earth. The Bible often speaks from the human perspective, using ordinary language, not the scientific. People do the same thing today, such as when we refer to the "setting sun" or to the "sunset." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 The Bible often speaks from the human perspective, using ordinary language, not the scientific. People do the same thing today, such as when we refer to the "setting sun" or to the "sunset." Unless it's convenient for your theology, of course. Then, by George, it's absolutely scientific. Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 ...that's what heart cells have been programmed by evolution to do,... What is your proof that the heart cells have been programmed by evolution? "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> Could you please explain the significance of the experiment in the video? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
doug yowell Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 I don't do things that hurt other people in any habitual manner. I don't have to work at that at all. Quote
JoeMo Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Igakusei, I Quote: don't think the universe was designed in the same way that I don't think pixies or leprechauns exist, but I'm not claiming absolute certainty on the matter as my beliefs are always subject to change pending future discoveries. I may be coming from a little different angle than you are; but I LOVE what you said! I couldn't say it better! I've said many times that I claim the right to be wrong or the right to change my mind at any given moment; based on future revelations. Quote
doug yowell Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 If you're going to put your fingers in your ears and unthinkingly accept whatever the Bible says just because it says it, get it right. Or maybe a better option is to recognize that the Bible was written by people who had a skewed, pre-scientific understanding of reality, and you shouldn't drink it down with quite so much thoughtless credulity. What's really skewed if the blatant misrepresentation of what the Bible writers meant by what they said. Absent is the inclusion of a couple of Scriptural quotes:"Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is He WHO SITS ABOVE THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH..." "He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters." One has to wonder how people who understood what North, South, East, and West meant could somehow believe that these terms all fit into a flat earth mentality? The attempt to skew the obvious symbolism (something which we moderns do frequently today) of the Bible is dishonest. One could use the same line of irrationality to argue that the Bible seriously teaches that mountains and trees can literally sing (Is.44:23),and have hands to clap(Is.55:12) like some mythological story invention of J. R. Tolkien. Quote
skyblue888 Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 "Power belongs to God." Ps.62:11. There is no other source of power. It does not seem as though it ought to be difficult for people who believe in God to believe that power, without any qualification or limitation, belongs to God, that is, it pertains to Him; it is His attribute. Suppose we take it that God has power, but He has not all the power there is. If that were so, there would be another God, would there not? That would make it necessary. Suppose we say He has some power in the universe, and that there is another being in the universe who has some power. Then the question will be, Which is the greater? There will be a controversy in the universe. Now just such a controversy has arisen--Lucifer, the light bearer, has claimed equality with God, and has presumed to dispute the possession of power. But I thank God there is no question about the outcome, or about the facts. Power belongs to God, and therefore we do not need to wait until the end to find out who is going to come out ahead, in order to arrange ourselves on his side. But we know from the Bible and from the Word of God in all nature, that power, absolute and universal, all the power there is, belongs to God. If it were not so, there would be some part of the universe over which God did not have any right to control! And if we could find out who those certain ones are that have power that does not belong to God, we would not have any ground whatever to stand on in preaching the Gospel to them. They would say, I never received anything from the Lord, and I don't owe him anything. The question of division of power is simply the question, How many gods are there? There is one God, and only one. Well it is wonderful to me, every day I live, and the longer I live the more wonderful it is to me, into how small a space, and how simple a truth, all the truth is resolved. Whoever comes to the recognition of this fact, and holds himself to it, has all the truth there is in the universe, --God is, and there is no other; and when we see God is, He that cometh to God must believe that He is. That is His name, --I AM. What? – I AM. When we come face to face with that, it is a wonderful thought. God is. Where? He is. Go where you will in the universe, and there it can be said, He is. You know what it says in Ps.139:7, 'Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?' Why should any one try to minimize the power of God, or to claim that the power is divided between Him and another being? In doing so a man is taking the foundation from under his own feet. What confidence can we have in God if He is not the only supreme, absolute, the only God, the only Ruler in the universe? If any one can claim power aside or apart from God, we have no hope. There is one being who has thought to divide divine honours with the Lord. He has said, 'I will be like the Most High,' and he has instilled that spirit into mankind from the very beginning, saying, 'In the day ye eat thereof, ye shall be like God.' I believe that was why our first parents cut loose from God. They thought that they could get along without Him, therefore they did not need to obey Him. It is all involved in that; Satan said, I have power outside of God, I am independent of Him. Satan made them believe that." E.J. Waggoner, 1897 General Conference Bulletin, Studies in the Book of Hebrews, p.84. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: John317 The Bible often speaks from the human perspective, using ordinary language, not the scientific. People do the same thing today, such as when we refer to the "setting sun" or to the "sunset." Unless it's convenient for your theology, of course. Then, by George, it's absolutely scientific. The Bible was not written in scientific language; it was written in ordinary language using the concepts of the people living at the time of the writing. I believe the evidence shows that God meets people where they are. This doesn't mean that the Bible is not true. After all, something can be true without being scientically true. For instance, poems are often quite true although they don't describe things in scientific terms. And a person might tell of an illness in a way that is true experientially, yet not be scientifically accurate according to medical text-books. Imagine narratives told in scientific language. Instead of, "As the sun was setting that evening...," it might then read, "As the earth went round the sun..." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Could you please explain the significance of the experiment in the video? That was just meant to illustrate how a handful of chemical reactions can create a cycle that oscillates on its own without some supernatural force maintaining it. Our hearts do something similar with ATP-driven ion channels, which contradicts what sky was saying about our hearts requiring some sort of divine voodoo sustenance in order to beat. Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 X50 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 What's really skewed if the blatant misrepresentation of what the Bible writers meant by what they said. Absent is the inclusion of a couple of Scriptural quotes:"Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is He WHO SITS ABOVE THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH..." Quote I believe in life before death
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 The Bible was not written in scientific language; it was written in ordinary language using the concepts of the people living at the time of the writing. Well, no kidding. You wouldn't exactly expect writings from a pre-scientific tribes-people to have any modern concepts in it. No supernatural intervention required. Didn't we make that simple? Quote I believe in life before death
doug yowell Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 The Bible was not written in scientific language; it was written in ordinary language using the concepts of the people living at the time of the writing. I believe the evidence shows that God meets people where they are. This doesn't mean that the Bible is not true. After all, something can be true without being scientically true. For instance, poems are often quite true although they don't describe things in scientific terms. And a person might tell of an illness in a way that is true experientially, yet not be scientifically accurate according to medical text-books. Imagine narratives told in scientific language. Instead of, "As the sun was setting that evening...," it might then read, "As the earth went round the sun..." It's a reasonable and logical conclusion.Why should anyone trash the Bible account because it didn't use the language that no one else uses to describe a situation that everyone else understands in it's natural context? We do it everyday without anyone thinking we're hallucinating. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: John317 Could you please explain the significance of the experiment in the video? That was just meant to illustrate how a handful of chemical reactions can create a cycle that oscillates on its own without some supernatural force maintaining it. Our hearts do something similar with ATP-driven ion channels, which contradicts what sky was saying about our hearts requiring some sort of divine voodoo sustenance in order to beat. Thanks. But when it comes to the universe, such an illustration doesn't do much good unless it can be shown how those chemicals would have existed in the first place, and how they become mixed together naturally as the scientist mixes them in the lab. Of course, in order for the heart to beat, it requires a lot more than those chemical reactions. It requires just the right amount of a lot of different kinds of cells and tissues. Scientists have not even been able to make a single living cell, let alone a group of living cells. As I read books on the complexity of our world, I find convincing evidence that it was designed and is not a pure accident or the result of chance. I haven't yet found a satisfactory explanation of the evolution of the male and female reproductive system. Do you know of one? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 What is your proof that the heart cells have been programmed by evolution? Thousands of papers over the last two-hundred years. http://www4.utsouthwestern.edu/olsonlab/Publications/Science%202006.pdf http://physiolgenomics.physiology.org/content/35/3/262.full http://www.biologia.ufrj.br/labs/labpoly/Farmer1999.pdf http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/2/189.full.pdf http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent But by all means, keep your head in the sand if you find it more comfortable there. Quote I believe in life before death
cardw Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: cardw I don't do things that hurt other people in any habitual manner. I don't have to work at that at all. You have never done anything that hurt anyone else? Never an unkind word or a condescending attitude towards someone you thought as less intellectually or otherwise equal? Never a loss of temper, never a lie, never took advantage of someone of the opposite sex, never spread rumor that turned out not to be true? Never talked down to a Christian, never disappointed your parents or someone you loved? Do you consider yourself a model of human goodness? Do you think your life is as good or better than the one you argue never happened,Jesus. I'm not really interested in rating my goodness. I don't hurt people in any habitual manner. I didn't claim perfection. That's your standard which doesn't exist anywhere. The problem with your dialog with me is that you project things into what I post that I'm not saying. And then you get your feelings hurt when I get mad for being misrepresented. I don't really feel like unpacking all the projections on your part. So, to save your feelings, I'm going to let this go. I've said what I wanted. If you don't agree or understand what I'm saying, then so be it. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Thanks. But when it comes to the universe, such an illustration doesn't do much good unless it can be shown how those chemicals would have existed in the first place, and how they become mixed together naturally as the scientist mixes them in the lab. Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: John317 The Bible was not written in scientific language; it was written in ordinary language using the concepts of the people living at the time of the writing. Well, no kidding. You wouldn't exactly expect writings from a pre-scientific tribes-people to have any modern concepts in it. No supernatural intervention required. Didn't we make that simple? That's just it: the Bible shows convincing evidence that it wasn't written by human beings alone. No pre-scientific tribes-people could account for the Bible. The other so-called scriptures of the world religions-- Hindu, Buddhist, Mormonism, Islam-- can be easily accounted for by human writers alone, but not the Bible. Do you think that you-- a modern, scientific man who has much more knowledge than the writers of Scripture-- could write a book like any of the books contained in the Bible? The Bible contains 66 books and was written by approximately 50 authors over a period of about 1, 500 years. But let's suppose that it was written by over 100 different people. Do you think that 100--- no, let's make it 2,000-- of the most intelligent scientists (who were helped by Nobel prize-winning authors),could produce a book of the quality of the King James Version? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators debbym Posted February 24, 2013 Administrators Posted February 24, 2013 Quote: This argument shoots itself in the foot right off the bat. What prevents whatever God is made out of from falling apart? If the universe is so intricately complex that it requires a designer, then wouldn't that designer likely be even more complex? Obviously an infinite regression of increasingly complex designers is silly, but I suppose you can skirt that problem by arbitrarily declaring that there must be an "uncaused cause" and call it God. i cannot see the comments were in any form an argument. so you are arguing with a non argument. challenging i would think. i think he was making a suggestion of taking an action, and contemplating. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 That's just it: the Bible shows convincing evidence that it wasn't written by human beings alone. No pre-scientific tribes-people could account for the Bible. Do you think that you-- a modern, scientific man who has much more knowledge than the writers of Scripture-- could write a book like any of the books contained in the Bible? The Bible contains 66 books and was written by approximately 50 authors over a period of about 1, 500 years. But let's suppose that it was written by over 100 different people. Do you think that 100--- no, let's make it 2,000-- of the most intelligent scientists (who were helped by Nobel prize-winning authors), they could produce a book of the quality of the King James Version? Quote I believe in life before death
M. T. Cross Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." Ministry of Healing,397. Originally Posted By: EmptyCross I am always so confused when people throw out EGW statements to atheists or non SDA's period. I mean if the person does not believe in the Bible in the first place, why would someone use her writings as leverage for their argument.......... I am confused. Very likely, skyblue is using the quote to explain his belief system, not that he believes you will accept the quote as authoritative. But do you believe life is in some way mysterious and that it is sacred? If you have a child, do you believe his or her life is in some sense "sacred"? I am not arguing with the quote itself. It might be the one statement made by her that in of itself comes close to making a little bit of sense. But my point is that to use an EGW statement may be effective making a point to a fellow SDA, it baffles my someone would use it to make a point to non SDA's and even more so to former SDA's. I don't buy that it was being used to explain his belief, cause from my observation over the last 2 years of active posting here (and the previous years of reading this board) is that 99% of the SDA's here know that they don't need to explain their beliefs to CardW (who the quote in question was directed at) but they certainly do like to try to win an argument with him. Its an SDA board so that is most certainly to be expected, I am sure Card expects it as well. I was simply pointing out the poor technique used to try and do so. Do I think life is mysterious and sacred. Yes I do. I would if I was an atheist to. There is a lot we don't understand. I love life and I have no desire to see it end for myself or most. I think it is to be treasured and experienced. That does not mean that the Christian God is running the show though. Quote
Igakusei Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 i cannot see the comments were in any form an argument. so you are arguing with a non argument. challenging i would think. i think he was making a suggestion of taking an action, and contemplating. Quote I believe in life before death
Moderators John317 Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Posted February 24, 2013 Originally Posted By: John317 What is your proof that the heart cells have been programmed by evolution? Thousands of papers over the last two-hundred years. http://www4.utsouthwestern.edu/olsonlab/Publications/Science%202006.pdf But by all means, keep your head in the sand if you find it more comfortable there. Is this what you consider "proof that heart cells have been programmed by evolution"? Quote: The most fundamental functional units of allhearts are cardiacmuscle cells, which express an array of contractile proteins, such as muscle actin, myosin, troponin, and tropomyosin. The appearance of muscle cells preceded the divergence of Cnideria (hydra, jellyfish, and corals) and Ctenophora (comb jellies) from the Bilateria, from which mammals descended (È700 million years ago) (Fig. 1) (5). Primordial muscle cells probably resembled the epitheliomuscle cells of Cnideria and amphioxus, which is thought to be the closest living approximation of the invertebrate ancestor of vertebrates (6–8). These cells probably existed in a primitive gastric pocket where they participated in fluid movement during feeding. Muscle cells in bilaterians are derived from mesoderm, which is believed to have arisen from the gastrodermis of a diploblastic ancestor. The diversification of muscle cells gave rise to skeletal, cardiac, and smooth muscle cells, and further specialization of cardiac muscle cells ultimately yielded atrial and ventricular myocytes, as well as the cells of the mammalian cardiac conduction system. The first heart-like organ is believed to have appeared over 500 million years ago in an ancestral bilaterian (6, 9–11). It probably resembled the simple tubular vessel-like organs of tunicates and amphioxus... It's all theory and based on what is believed to have "probably" occurred. Maybe it happened, but then... maybe not... Who knows? But thanks for the links. I'll continue reading them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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