Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

You say you love the way Igakusei let his mind do the talking instead of quoting some dead guy.

Yeah, Sky; God woke me up in the middle of the night and told me the same thing. My bad. I didn't mean that the way it came out. Hopefully this explains it better:

Quote:

The non-Christians on this forum overwhelmingly speak their own minds and hearts rather than quote the minds and hearts of other people.

Does that make better sense?

[JoeMo]

Hey Ig,

Quote:

I spent DECADES in frustrated anguish trying exactly what you and almost about every other Christian I've ever met in my life has told me….

... and God never answered. One of my daughters is slowly but surely experiencing the same thing; with the same results. She has drifted into agnosticism and heading towards athiesm. Yet my other daughter and I have many experiences with what I would call divine manifestation. I'm not saying that there are not natural laws and processes that may explain what we've experienced - I'm just saying I am unaware of them. When I see someone who just "gets" a prayer language that remains with them after "the thrill is gone", so to speak, how do I explain that naturally? When I see someone (including myself) spontaneously and immediately healed from a life-threatening injusy or disease, What am I to think?

That being said, I have no answers for why God (or any deity)would give supernatural gifts and manifestations to some and not others. Because of my respect for Him, I refuse to say it's because He is arbitrary or plays favorites. I also don't accept predestination - that doesn't seem fair of an all-loving God. I'm not gonna say that anyone without experiences lacks faith. That's judgemental first of all; and secondly, how are you supposed to reinforce your faith if you never have experiences to back it up?

I wish I had better answers but I don't - outside of faith. You and other non-Christians on this forum raise legitimate issues. Hopefully someone smarter than me (hello God!) will answer then with convincing power.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Yeah . . . I feel the same as you. I searched. I searched hard. I still remember the nights in bed, sobbing hysterically, tearing at myself and the sheets and even screaming for "loving Heavenly Father" to say something, anything.

And there was nothing. There was never anything.

That's not love. That's not a father. That's not a god at all.

That is such a sad story. I've heard almost identical words from my own daughter ...

[Igakusei]

To let one's mind do the talking is the new and only safe authority?

Seems to be the new doctrine around here.

sky

You need to stop thinking in terms of which authority is who listening to.

I generally speak my own mind, but I'm not using my mind as an authority any more than you are. If you make, within your own mind, a conscious decision to accept the opinions, thoughts, or arguments of others over your own, then you have used your mind as the authority in making the decision that an external source is more reliable than you are. Logically you're cutting off the very branch you're sitting on, because the very act of delegating authority to an external source requires placing authority in your own ability to make that decision correctly.

[Igakusei]

... and God never answered. One of my daughters is slowly but surely experiencing the same thing; with the same results. She has drifted into agnosticism and heading towards athiesm. Yet my other daughter and I have many experiences with what I would call divine manifestation. I'm not saying that there are not natural laws and processes that may explain what we've experienced - I'm just saying I am unaware of them. When I see someone who just "gets" a prayer language that remains with them after "the thrill is gone", so to speak, how do I explain that naturally? When I see someone (including myself) spontaneously and immediately healed from a life-threatening injusy or disease, What am I to think?

That being said, I have no answers for why God (or any deity)would give supernatural gifts and manifestations to some and not others. Because of my respect for Him, I refuse to say it's because He is arbitrary or plays favorites. I also don't accept predestination - that doesn't seem fair of an all-loving God. I'm not gonna say that anyone without experiences lacks faith. That's judgemental first of all; and secondly, how are you supposed to reinforce your faith if you never have experiences to back it up?

I wish I had better answers but I don't - outside of faith. You and other non-Christians on this forum raise legitimate issues. Hopefully someone smarter than me (hello God!) will answer then with convincing power.

I think it's important to NOT do what Joeb did, and continue asserting that if what worked for you didn't work for them, that the fault necessarily must lie with them. That's alienating and marginalizing, and prevents you from understanding your daughters experiences and struggles. She will be severely limited in her ability to go to you for emotional or spiritual support, because how can you possibly offer relevant and helpful advice if all you've got is the one thing that never worked?

It's harder to suggest what you SHOULD do, but I think that a little humility goes a long ways towards enabling a meaningful, trusting, ongoing relationship. It's a lot easier to get along with those of widely different viewpoints and backgrounds if everyone involved views themselves and each other as imperfect individuals each seeking truth and meaning in the best way they know how.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

All I know from my experience, and everyone I have ever known who has asked God with an honest heart, is that God has answered them. That's not meant to be smug or condescending. That's what I know. It's also what I know about God. He wants you to know Him. That's who He is. For me to say anything different is to deny what I know about God. I just can't do that. If that offends you, I'm sorry. No offense was meant.

Well, now that you've met me, you can't say this any more. I don't know much much you value my experience, but there are a whole lot of other people just like me. Seriously, please read this book.

Quote:

This is a story of a true Christian who believed for nearly three decades, having grown up the son of evangelical missionary parents, later becoming a missionary himself. Yet he slowly lost his faith and now no longer holds it. In this part-autobiography, part-exposé, Ken traces his journey from evangelical missionary to secular humanist while remaining part of a committed Christian family. He looks back at a number of reasons he remained a believer for over a decade after his initial doubts began at university, critically evaluating each one in a separate chapter. Whether or not you agree with Ken's conclusions, you will find his journey and his reasons for taking it fascinating and informative. You will end up better understanding, if not appreciating, the mind of apostates whose desire is to follow the evidence wherever it leads.

The author's goal isn't to convert anyone to his point of view, it's only to help people like you understand it. When you sit there and declare that God always answers everyone who asks him with a genuine, honest heart, you're declaring that he and I don't exist.

I certainly don't want to assume anything about your experience so correct me where I go wrong, but do you think there might be some self-selection going on in your circle of friends? It should come as no surprise that when you go to a Church, most of the people you find found a very similar God to the one you did when they went looking. I mean, you're all at the same church, right? What Christianity does is start with a belief that those who earnestly seek God will find the truth, and then find ways to dismiss or marginalize those who don't fit the mold. According to that belief I CANNOT have been honestly seeking truth, because if I was than I would have found it. I don't conform to your understanding of reality, but rather than correct your understanding of reality, you re-interpret my story in a way that fits your clean little picture.

And that's fine, but it also marginalizes me and refuses to acknowledge who and what I am. This is why people like me stop going to your churches, because your churches don't accept us. We don't exist. So it's no wonder that everyone you know who sought God found him, because you lack the capability to know people like me.

You claim I assume too much, and then you do exactly that. You assume I am trying to marginalize you. I'm not. I have no incentive to do that, and more than that, I have a lot of incentive not to. I've been marginalized. I was marginalized by the very people who should have accepted and loved me: parents and siblings. So, I know exactly what it's like.

In my 20's I wrote a letter to my old man asking him to communicate with me as I needed to talk to him about all the abuse I suffered at his hands. His answer? Forget it. I'm not talking to you about anything. He died without ever allowing me to talk to him about anything serious.

In my 40's I did a temperament test with the woman who gave birth to me and raised me. Her comment after taking the test and having me explain my temperament to her was, Oh, now I understand you. She died a couple of months later without ever apologizing for the misery she helped put me through all my life. Even after she understood she didn't care enough to say, I'm sorry.

My older brother? Well, he wrote me a letter in the 80's telling me I was everything that is wrong with the world. That was after being nothing but cruel and hateful to me from as far back as I can remember.

My little brother? He told me he's never considered me worth knowing. When he was 18, and I was 28, and failing at school at he wrote me a letter and told me if I'd just listen to him he'd make a man out of me. What inspired that letter? I was getting married.

I don't write that to look for pity, or anything else. I write it so that you will know that I know exactly what it's like to be really marginalized. And, I have no desire to inflict that kind of pain on anyone else.

Don't take what is a poor way to really communicate, forums like this, and read too much into just words. You can't see body language. You can't hear tones of voice. You cant see facial expressions. All that leads to miscommunication in highly emotionally charged personal communication issues.

Your point about not knowing you and then now getting to know you was exactly the point I was trying to make about getting to know God. I could talk to every person who has ever known you and thus know many disparate points of data about you. I'd most likely get many conflicting opinions about you from different people. Would I actually know you even though I talked to everyone who had ever known you and knew all about you? No. The only way I can get to know you is by personal experience. I don't find that point to be rude, condescending, self-righteous, or any other kind of obnoxious behavior.

So, how about laying aside all the anger and just communicating? I'm willing if you are.

[Igakusei]

You claim I assume too much, and then you do exactly that. You assume I am trying to marginalize you. I'm not. I have no incentive to do that, and more than that, I have a lot of incentive not to. I've been marginalized. I was marginalized by the very people who should have accepted and loved me: parents and siblings. So, I know exactly what it's like.

I never said you were trying to marginalize me, I said that your belief system marginalizes me. Your intentions, while noble (I did explicitly state as much earlier), are somewhat irrelevant. The rest of your post mostly follows from that miscommunication.

[Gerr]

Yes, I believe salvation to be science because if you follow the steps that it requires, you do get certain results. As I said, millions over the ages have already tried it first hand and found it to be true. And as I already said, there are a lot more variables that can go wrong when it comes to this experiment that the results do not always come out the way we want. You want first hand evidence like Cardw, then take up the challenge I offered and see it for yourself. I have tried it, and there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that there is a loving Creator who loves and cares about me. Have I had disappointments with God? Of course! But He is too wise to err in granting every desire and whim of mine.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

You claim I assume too much, and then you do exactly that. You assume I am trying to marginalize you. I'm not. I have no incentive to do that, and more than that, I have a lot of incentive not to. I've been marginalized. I was marginalized by the very people who should have accepted and loved me: parents and siblings. So, I know exactly what it's like.

I never said you were trying to marginalize me, I said that your belief system marginalizes me. Your intentions, while noble (I did explicitly state as much earlier), are somewhat irrelevant. The rest of your post mostly follows from that miscommunication.

My belief system does not marginalize you. If it did, I would attempt to marginalize you, for we act out that which we believe. We are, to a great extent, exactly what we believe.

[Igakusei]

I don't know why this seems so difficult for you to understand.

You believe that if we seek God in earnest, that he will provide answers.

My experience, and that of many others I have encountered, is that answers either don't arrive, or the answers are different and often incompatible.

Your beliefs do not allow for this, so you invent rationalizations and platitudes to explain my experience away in terms that fit your beliefs. I didn't seek the right way, I didn't seek long enough, I didn't let go of my own preconceptions, etc. It's my fault that I didn't get answers from God, because your belief is that if I had done it right, answers would have come.

this marginalizes me, regardless of what you intend, because you refuse to accept that my experience is genuine. You cannot understand me, because you refuse to believe that my experience is possible.

How can you not get this?

[Gerr]

[joeb]

I don't know why this seems so difficult for you to understand.

You believe that if we seek God in earnest, that he will provide answers.

My experience, and that of many others I have encountered, is that answers either don't arrive, or the answers are different and often incompatible.

Your beliefs do not allow for this, so you invent rationalizations and platitudes to explain my experience away in terms that fit your beliefs. I didn't seek the right way, I didn't seek long enough, I didn't let go of my own preconceptions, etc. It's my fault that I didn't get answers from God, because your belief is that if I had done it right, answers would have come.

this marginalizes me, regardless of what you intend, because you refuse to accept that my experience is genuine. You cannot understand me, because you refuse to believe that my experience is possible.

How can you not get this?

What have I said that attempts to explain away your experience? I haven't said anything along those lines. Nothing. I've said what my experience is. Period. I've also apologized when you said I misread your post. How is apologizing for a problem in communication anywhere close to an attempt at marginalizing you?

[joeb]

LOL. You mean we agree on something?

[Igakusei]

What have I said that attempts to explain away your experience? I haven't said anything along those lines. Nothing. I've said what my experience is. Period. I've also apologized when you said I misread your post. How is apologizing for a problem in communication anywhere close to an attempt at marginalizing you?

Do you still believe that everyone who earnestly seeks answers from God gets them? Because every time you say that, and you've asserted it repeatedly, you're blaming the victims of Christianity's failure to give them the answers they desperately need for Christianity's failure to provide those answers. Remember my friend who recalled tearing at her sheets while screaming for God to provide her with something, anything? Every time you assert that people who earnestly seek will find, and that if they simply ask God for help that he will provide what they need, you make us relive those countless days and nights of emotional torment, racking our hearts and minds for what we might possibly be doing wrong that prevents God from intervening as promised. So we leave, and you never hear from most of us again, because associating with people who believe as you do is simply too painful for many of us to tolerate.

[Gail]

I hear you, Igakusei

[Igakusei]

Yes, I believe salvation to be science because if you follow the steps that it requires, you do get certain results. As I said, millions over the ages have already tried it first hand and found it to be true. And as I already said, there are a lot more variables that can go wrong when it comes to this experiment that the results do not always come out the way we want. You want first hand evidence like Cardw, then take up the challenge I offered and see it for yourself. I have tried it, and there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that there is a loving Creator who loves and cares about me. Have I had disappointments with God? Of course! But He is too wise to err in granting every desire and whim of mine.

In case you haven't been following my conversation with Joeb, you might want to read it. You're basically repeating the same nonsense he is, assuming that because this method worked for you that it will work the same way for everyone else. You're just using the "lot more variables" line as an excuse, but you don't seem to have thought that completely through because you've still arrived at the conclusion that I simply haven't "taken up the challenge you offered to see for myself." How many times do I have to tell you that I spent many years doing exactly that?

When you scream and cry yourself to sleep at night time after time because you're not getting the attention you deserve, and then you're led to believe that you're not getting the answers you seek through some unknown and unimaginable fault of your own, you know what that is? It's an abusive relationship built on victim blaming. If I ignored my wife's most deep and intimate concerns for weeks, months, even years on end and all of her friends and family repeatedly tell her that she just doesn't love me enough, or have enough faith in me, and that she just needs to be patient and keep waiting for me to reciprocate, is that a healthy situation you would recommend for anyone? Yet that's exactly what you're telling me and those like me right now, callously assuming that we must just not have "taken up your challenge."

[Gail]

I am understanding, I think, some of your frustration, Igakusei. Certainly, if it happened to me I would be wondering, too!

One question that we all can ask is, Why? Will we ever know?

It must be as frustrating to you to understand how it CAN work, as it is for others to understand how it can't. The how and the why are where the answers are.

But I think acknowledging just that is a better meeting point than sending the message that there is something wrong and YOU are the one that needs to change, if you know what I mean.

[Gail]

And, Igakusei, this might be difficult to grasp, but it may be beyond us to totally understand it. You might be asking something that we as believers cannot prove concretely.

That doesn't mean that it isn't reality to those who are convinced. It certainly is their reality. You may not be willing to accept one's truth within one's heart to be proof, but it is indeed real to those who have it. People over the ages, intelligent people, have gone to the stake to burn in their best clothes and singing. Thousands have. That's a pretty big test. But how can one explain how the Spirit moves?

But I do accept what you say as valid. I don't know the reasons that will provide the answers for you. But I, too, know many who have gone through a similar walk.

[Gerr]

[

In case you haven't been following my conversation with Joeb, you might want to read it. You're basically repeating the same nonsense he is, assuming that because this method worked for you that it will work the same way for everyone else. You're just using the "lot more variables" line as an excuse, but you don't seem to have thought that completely through because you've still arrived at the conclusion that I simply haven't "taken up the challenge you offered to see for myself." How many times do I have to tell you that I spent many years doing exactly that?

You are doing the exact nonsense you are accusing others of doing - marginalizing another person's experience because what worked for them did not work for you! I can no more deny your experience than you can deny mine! Since you have already done the experiment and didn't get the expected result, then we'll just have to wait for a better day to find out why your experiment & mine turned out the way they did.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

[Igakusei]

You are doing the exact nonsense you are accusing others of doing - marginalizing another person's experience because what worked for them did not work for you! I can no more deny your experience than you can deny mine! Since you have already done the experiment and didn't get the expected result, then we'll just have to wait for a better day to find out why your experiment & mine turned out the way they did.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

I haven't denied your experience! Repeatedly in this very thread, I have framed my position such that I think you're wrong for asserting that what worked for you works for everyone else, using my own experience and that of many of my friends as counterexamples. Does that framing not acknowledge quite clearly that your solution worked for you?

Your experience, as I understand it, is that seeking answers from God brought you the comfort, solace, meaning and whatever else you were looking for in life.

My experience is that seeking answers from God ends up with me on the bad end of an abusive relationship if the answers I get, if I get any at all, are different from those that the leaders in the only community I was exposed to got.

My argument is consistent with your experience being genuine from your perspective, and I generally treat that with respect and don't go around telling people that God doesn't exist and they're all deluded sheep.

Your argument is that my experience is impossible, so I must either be lying or mistaken or something else that doesn't acknowledge it as genuine.

These are not equivalent positions with respect to which side gets marginalized, especially since this whole conversation occurs in the context of youths raised in sheltered conservative communities with no access to the many alternative solutions (e.g. secular humanism) that finally answered our questions.

[M. T. Cross]

Joeb, I mentioned our exchange to an old friend of mine, and she repled with this:

Quote:

Yeah . . . I feel the same as you. I searched. I searched hard. I still remember the nights in bed, sobbing hysterically, tearing at myself and the sheets and even screaming for "loving Heavenly Father" to say something, anything.

And there was nothing. There was never anything.

That's not love. That's not a father. That's not a god at all.

This is an extremely common story, and I've seen it hundreds of times. There are many who seek and find no answers, but you just don't know any of them.

That just about sums up ages 4 - 16 for me. As soon as I could read I buried myself in the Bible. I read, I prayed, I believed and had faith with all my heart and yet there was NOTHING. I did the same with EGW, but I got something out of that. Pure terror, an overwhelming sense of guilt and the belief that I could never ever ever ( I feel like Taylor Swift there LOL ) be good enough for God.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: joeb

What have I said that attempts to explain away your experience? I haven't said anything along those lines. Nothing. I've said what my experience is. Period. I've also apologized when you said I misread your post. How is apologizing for a problem in communication anywhere close to an attempt at marginalizing you?

Do you still believe that everyone who earnestly seeks answers from God gets them? Because every time you say that, and you've asserted it repeatedly, you're blaming the victims of Christianity's failure to give them the answers they desperately need for Christianity's failure to provide those answers. Remember my friend who recalled tearing at her sheets while screaming for God to provide her with something, anything? Every time you assert that people who earnestly seek will find, and that if they simply ask God for help that he will provide what they need, you make us relive those countless days and nights of emotional torment, .

[BobRyan]

Paul says "now we see through a glass darkly - but then face to face" 1Cor 13.

John says "we do not know what we shall be - but we know that we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" 1John 3.

None of them claim to have one-on-one interviews with God on command - and they were apostles.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

God says "Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you: for EVERYONE that asketh receives and he that seeks finds and to him that knocks it shall be opened" Matt 7:7-8.

And of course we have Christians who read the Bible as God's Word and believe it - and experience it.

But does "And experience it" mean that God comes in and sit in a chair on command? Or ever?

Does God speak audibly or even in a soft whisper?

Does God appear in the window or behind a curtain?

certainly not. Well not in most cases - there is Rev chapter 1 and Numbers 6 - but that is pretty rare indeed.

God provides a lot of access to His Word "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from GOD" 2Peter 1:21.

Suppose we engage in ignoring God's prophets as our means of seeking contact with God? would that work? As it turns out - it does not.

Suppose we engage in rebellion against what the Word of God says to us - and view that as our "method" of "seeking God" is that going to work?

Isaiah 59 talks about that idea.

God explains the separation this way "Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Quote:

Isaiah 59

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity."

The Bible provides many ways to get no answer.

And God explains why this is best -

Quote:

Ezek 14

nd the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

God draws near for judgment.Those who would presume to come into His presence cannot come and shove an Idol into God's face as if "this is a small matter". That was not the attitude of Isaiah or of John or of Moses.

But Israel had that attitude at the foot of Mt Sinai.

In Numbers 6 God said that Moses was standing face-to-face with God at the tent of meeting - but God says that even prophets such as Miriam and Aaron were not having that experience such as Moses had.

God says that because of that - they should have been "afraid to speak against Moses".

in Christ,

Bob

Those are really great Bob. Thanks for posting, these are very encouraging verses.

[M. T. Cross]

Bob are you saying that your God never communicates with a regular lay person? The only way he gives comfort is through prophets? That everyone that says that they have had an experience with that "soft quiet voice" or received a "sign" or whatever is a liar? I mean we hear about all these personal experiences people have. Are they just making that up?