Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I never asked him for help. I just decided that enough was enough.

How do you know that others were not praying for you?

Great point.

People's prayers for others really do matter.

There have even been some studies done showing that people who are unaware of being prayed for get well faster than people who are not prayed for. One such study is in a book published by the University of Redlands.

I believe that the reason I eventually chose to accept Christ into my life was that many people were praying for me. I was unaware of all these prayers until after I was baptized.

It seems that prayers to God in behalf of other people give Him permission to do things that He couldn't otherwise do if no one asked Him to get involved in their lives.

[HopefulOne]

I remember how stupid and reckless i was when i was a kid.

Without knowing who God is i survived my youth.Many times over i could have lost my life or at least been seriously or permanently injured.

In hind site i know God preserved me until my heart was ready to learn and care for spiritual matters.I kept my Guardian Angel very busy during my high school days.

[M. T. Cross]

To EmptyCross-

I was very high on acid once and the ones I was with made me drive to where I was going.

Now, you know Vancouver. Can you imagine driving the Simon Fraser Univerity road up and back down that mountain stoned on acid? It's probably a good road now, but back then it was a windy, 2-lane road up a steep mountain. It would have been an easy thing to drive through a retaining fence down a couple hundred foot cliff.

It scared me, I mean, REALLY scared me. But they always got me to drive when we were partying because I kept my head better than they, I guess. But that was uber freaky. I thank my guardian angel and praise God for bringing me through that. I do not miss those days.

Driving anywhere high always terrified me so I would have never done it. You would usually find me off in a corner drawing or playing guitar or just thinking.

My acid experiences were very controlled (outside of the time someone dropped 6 hits in my drink). I never did more than 2 and a half hits in one night and I would do that progressively over the night. Its probably the only drug I ever did "responsibly". I loved it and to this day am very happy I did it. It is not called a mind expanding drug for no reason at all. But I think a lot of that comes down to how you take it and what your reason for taking it is. Every time I did it I set aside time to just go sit in nature and enjoy the quiet. It was amazing.

In fact, all the acid I ever did was after I kicked my pill habit. I drank a lot and smoked a lot of weed as well. Those two kept me numb enough to not think about it, and the acid forced me to look at how badly I messed up things, used properly it can really force feed clarity to you. There is actually a Canadian/Norwegian medical team right now working on a substance abuse program using controlled administration of LSD to combat alcoholism.

[fccool]

Quote:

From the evolutionary viewpoint, what is "evil" about selfishness?

And where does the idea that selfishness is evil come from in a world made by evolution?

I think you pointed out well ,first and foremost, that the idea of selfishness and evil is AN IDEA. It lives inside your head, and nowhere else. In universe void of life (99.(9)..% of the universe) ... the idea of evil is absurd. Stars explode taking out quite a bit of planets along the way... is that an "evil event"? The concept of evil resides subjectively in your head.

But, let's get it closer to Earth.

A volcano explodes, killing 1000s of people, including children. How do you explain it? You can't explain it with your "people sinned" explanation. It makes no sense.

A more fitting explanation would be - there are things that we perceive as harmful and undesirable, and we agree that these are so collectively as humans. That's the "evolutionary idea of evil" as you speak of it. It has more to do with self-preservation, than it has to do with any "objective evil".

Objective evil, as you are desperately trying to frame it, does not exist. Take humans out of the equation, and you have no "evil". We don't consider it "evil" when a tiger hunts down the slowest and the sickest rabbit. In fact, such configuration keeps life on this planet possible.

Consider what would happen if bacteria did not die off as fast. It would cover the entire surface of the planet in a matter of days, if not hours. If there were no predators, you would have extreme imbalances of populations that would damage delicate ecosystems. Here's an example for you:

http://oceana.org/sites/default/files/o/...FINAL_FINAL.pdf

You'd think that Sharks are "evil", but they are merely doing the "job" they are selected to do in context of entire balance of life. We may think that sharks killing a human is a definite "evil", but it's not. It's evil from a subjective view of human psyche. From purely objective view - that's what sharks do - they hunt down the prey in the ocean.

Lastly, let's examine your claim.

1) You can't prove that your God and Biblical claims are not imaginary. You have to imagine these to believe in them.

2) You are claiming that without your imaginary beliefs that you can't directly prove without pandering to your experience and etc - the idea of evil does not make sense.

3) What you are actually doing, if you care to notice, is pointing back to yourself - your imagination - and saying that it's the "objective and proper" way to view things.... IT'S NOT. You are merely saying in a more complex terms "I'M RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG", while you are using certain ideas as an excuse to do so.

Any idea about "evil" in such context is nothing more than saying "It's evil because I believe it is so". It has nothing to do with God, who you can't prove existing outside of your imagination. You are merely banking on your imagination to be correct... the same thing billions of people done before you, and apparently being wrong.

[Gerr]

Without a God, yes, I would agree that evil is imaginary and makes no sense. And the idea that there is no God is no less imaginary.

[fccool]

Gerry.

Unless you can prove that it's not imaginary - it is imaginary.

For examples - I can say that Unicorns are real... just because I have an idea of what they look like, what they do, and some claims and stories of the past - does not make them more real than they aren't.

What you are doing is providing imaginary evidence for imaginary things and calling it real.

There's nothing real about it. You know what real evidence is. You can't produce it.

[Igakusei]

From the evolutionary viewpoint, what is "evil" about selfishness?

And where does the idea that selfishness is evil come from in a world made by evolution?

Pragmatism. Did you not watch the last video I posted on a similar comment from you? It's not a difficult idea to grasp, and I suspect that you could come up with it yourself if you used your imagination a little bit.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

That's alienating and marginalizing, and prevents you from understanding your daughters experiences and struggles. She will be severely limited in her ability to go to you for emotional or spiritual support, because how can you possibly offer relevant and helpful advice if all you've got is the one thing that never worked?

Sorry I'm so far behind - been gone.

I hear you Ig. I am totally sympathizing with her issues and being honest with her. I don't have all the answers. And many of the answers I do have are functionally based on circular logic (i.e., I believe it because God's word (in my case the bible) says so. If you think the bible is just a story, I might as well say Tolkien said it - it must be true) . You and I have shared PM's on how honestly looking at some of the links you send with an open mind has influenced my thinking.

Also, it's a challenge to believe something you have never experienced. I truly believe I have had supernatural encounters; so it's not hard for me to believe. She never has experienced or witnessed one. That makes it more difficult to accept the supernatural.

I would never discount my daughters'(or my wife's) opinions on spiritual or political matters. I have to live here !

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Exactly, but that's just the problem: Christianity is a one-trick Pony. It offers one solution, and no matter how hard or how long or how many different ways I attempt to use that solution, if it doesn't work I must have "omitted a step." That's it, there's nothing else for you to offer because there is no Plan B.

Ig,

I agree with your statement except for one part - it's not Christianity that offers only one solution - it's religion. Every one of the 20,000 Christian sects has their own unique solution to the sin problem. Each of them has put God in a special box in order to define who He is; so they can manipulate us into finding Him THEIR way. Gon't don't like boxes - He jumps out.

That being said - some people never find God - no matter how hard they try. I pray for God to reveal Himself openly to the non-believers I care about (that includes many of you, as well as my daughter). Obviously He hasn't done so yet ...

[JoeMo]

Quote:

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

Really joeb, institutionalized? I took 4-way hits of windowpane or blotter or orange barrels lots of times (sometimes twice in the same weekend) with lots of other people back in the 70's and none of us were ever institutionalized. I ate a lot of acid with a lot of people over many years; and I never know anyone who was institutionalized 9except maybe overnight). Maybe you guys took 8 - way hits?

I am NOT saying that drug abuse early in my life didn't mess me or my friends up. It did. It took many years to get through my drug related issues. Recovery is part of where I found God.

Maybe I am still kinda messed up. a lot of people on this site find me more than a little strange.

That's not to say all stoners eventually find God. I'm sure that's not the case.

[JoeMo]

Sky and Gail,

I was nervous about me disclosing my drug use on C/A. I am amazed that you are disclosing yours. Stuff like this gives me a great deal of hope for C/A. Are we actually beginning to get a feeling of trust and safety disclosing our "real" selves here - with all our mistakes, faults and weaknesses? If that is the case, I say praise God! That is what brothers and sisters should do! Thanks for sharing.

[Gibs]

Again and again we are assured that we are not left powerless over the enemy and that we can be the victor over every besetment!

Here is a short word from our Sister White,

"Through all our trials we have a never-failing Helper. He does not leave us alone to struggle with temptation, to battle with evil, and be finally crushed with burdens and sorrow. Though now He is hidden from mortal sight, the ear of faith can hear His voice saying, Fear not; I am with you. "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore" (Revelation 1:18). {AG 77.3}

Those who put away iniquity from their hearts and stretch out their hands in earnest supplication unto God will have that help which God alone can give them. A ransom has been paid for the souls of men, that they may have an opportunity to escape from the thralldom of sin and obtain pardon, purity, and heaven. . . . Those who frequent the throne of grace, offering up sincere, earnest petitions for divine wisdom and power, will not fail to become active, useful servants of Christ. They may not possess great talents, but with humility of heart and firm reliance upon Jesus they may do a good work in bringing souls to Christ. . . . {AG 77.4}

Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. . . . God is a God of truth. Justice and mercy are the attributes of His throne. He is a God of love, of pity and tender compassion. Thus He is represented in His Son, our Saviour. He is a God of patience and long-suffering. If such is the being whom we adore and to whose character we are seeking to assimilate, we are worshiping the true God. {AG 77.5}

If we are following Christ, His merits, imputed to us, come up before the Father as sweet odor. And the graces of our Saviour's character, implanted in our hearts, will shed around us a precious fragrance. {AG 77.6}

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Igakusei]

Step 1: Quote promise

Step 2: When you meet someone who found those promises empty, repeat Step 1 with extra enthusiasm.

Step 3: If that still doesn't work, repeat Step 1 again and blame them for their failure.

Is that basically comprehensive?

[doug yowell]

Gerry.

Unless you can prove that it's not imaginary - it is imaginary.

For examples - I can say that Unicorns are real... just because I have an idea of what they look like, what they do, and some claims and stories of the past - does not make them more real than they aren't.

What you are doing is providing imaginary evidence for imaginary things and calling it real.

There's nothing real about it. You know what real evidence is. You can't produce it.

George Muller was not a unicorn. He ran a series of orphanages in the 1800's. He never solicited support for those undertakings but would, in private, pray for God's provision. His stories are well documented, well evidenced. How do you explain an imagination that creates such a reality? How does one pray in the privacy of their home and receive the exact thing they are asking for while they are still praying? And this happened on an every day/week basis. Have you followed up on the other miraculous changed life stories that I have offered as evidence of the existence of a Supernatural Power?

The Jews can hardly be categorized as a bunch of ignorant space cadets over the centuries. Their history of success in virtually every intelligent area of life is undeniable. Yet, their very existence is founded and purpetuated in the belief of a literal,creative, miracle working Divine Being. Even if they were duped by their own Eternal delusions one has to wonder why believing in the same hopelessness wouldn't do a lot of practical good for the rest of society unless, of course, one thinks the Ten Commandments are a restriction to human happiness and progress?

[fccool]

Quote:

George Muller was not a unicorn. He ran a series of orphanages in the 1800's.

George Muller is a man. There are plenty of people who run orphanages. Interpreting certain events as "God's miracles" make little sense as the evidence for God. It's merely feeding the loop.

I believe there's God > If things go well for me it's God's working > Therefore there must be God

You really don't get my bringing up Unicorns if you are bringing up George Miller.

Quote:

How does one pray in the privacy of their home and receive the exact thing they are asking for while they are still praying?

Perhaps because he runs an orphanage, and people bring stuff in all the time. There bound to be a coincidences that overlap with George Muller's praying and desires. It's called the "battelefield" effect. 100 soldiers are praying to be alive. 5 of them survive and it's a "miracle from God". The 95 are not so lucky and never speak about non-miracle from God.

How many documented prayer non-answers for specific things does George Miller cite? How many sick children dying in spite of prayer? Of course, making sure that George Mullers specific requests are answered is more important than a life of a child in such context, right?

Quote:

And this happened on an every day/week basis. Have you followed up on the other miraculous changed life stories that I have offered as evidence of the existence of a Supernatural Power?

You really don't get the meaning of the "evidence of supernatural power". If these "miraculous changed life stories" are merely natural events happening... someone bringing resources when needed and etc... that's a natural event. It's not supernatural. Supernatural event would be George Miller praying for a million dollars for orphanage, and all of a sudden a suitcase full of gold materializes in front of him. That's a supernatural event.

What you are talking about is not an evidence of supernatural power. That's evidence of a mind that interprets a certain paradigm of events that happen quite naturally.

Quote:

The Jews can hardly be categorized as a bunch of ignorant space cadets over the centuries. Their history of success in virtually every intelligent area of life is undeniable.

Jews are a lot less successful than plentiful other nations both modern and ancient. In fact, compared to Arabs and Greeks/Romans, ancient Israelites are a idiot children in terms of knowledge and development.

If Rome did not adopt Christianity as a state religion for means of mental manipulation and control through fear, no one would care about Jews today. Their beliefs would be mostly on the Arab side, and would be as popular as Native American religion in USA.

For comparison, Chinese as a nation are more plentiful, more successful, and more wealthy than Jews... and just as ancient and with their own set of perpetual culture which carried them from antiquity to the modern day super-power. Of itself it's not an indicator that their cultural religion is viable as a belief system.

Quote:

Yet, their very existence is founded and purpetuated in the belief of a literal,creative, miracle working Divine Being.

It's called culture. Surprise!

When you are talking about "their existence", you are talking about surviving culture. Native American culture and religion is just as extensive and it survives to this day. What exactly does it indicate other than the cultures and beliefs are perpetuated by successive generations?

Quote:

Even if they were duped by their own Eternal delusions one has to wonder why believing in the same hopelessness wouldn't do a lot of practical good for the rest of society unless, of course, one thinks the Ten Commandments are a restriction to human happiness and progress?

Doug, don't be ridiculous. I'll expand on the subject I barely touched.

We have some family friends who have a girl with a heart condition. If the condition is left untreated, the girl will die. So, the surgeons will go and do arthroscopic surgery, by going through her arteries and operating on the heart. The girl should be home next day and will be expected to live a long life.

Now, the family could just stay home and pray to God to heal their girl, but instead they run to the scientific progress and modern medicine to do that. If they choose to pray to God instead for healing... there's a great amount of certainty that the girl will die of a heart failure, just like countless children in history prior to scientific progress taking place.

Here's the point. Until very recently, the religious thought and paradigm was a direct inhibitor of scientific progress. For example, in 2nd century Iraq we've had one of the most incredible booms of scientific knowledge known to man. That boom is the reason why we use Arabic numerals. If that boom was not inhibited by religious take over that happened in 3rd century in that region, we would have everything we have today much sooner.

History shows that whenever there is religious mindset that rules the land, you have lack of scientific knowledge and progress taking place. So, the 10 Commandments ARE actual inhibitors of human happiness and progress. They don't capture the full scope of human responsibility, and half of them are dealing with pleasing an imaginary deity that would rather fulfill the specifics of George Miller than save millions of children dying at childbirth in spite of their parent's prayers and tears... until modern medicine arrived and fixed that issue.

Of course, you can tell us that these children will all be in heaven, but how is it not merely a wishful thinking as a justification for lack of help?

You see... scientific progress accomplished something that religion could not. It gave people more productive, longer, and more enjoyable lives... SOMETHING REAL, and not a promise or imaginary things to come after you die.

Is it any wonder that when belief in deities and superstition diminishes, the overall quality of life improves? While you will quarrel about moral decay and how world is getting worse, and other ridiculous notions... you have to consider that the world is much better of today than during the "time of Jesus". People live longer. They are more healthy, they grow taller, they can do more, they can communicate better, they are more educated, and food and shelter are no longer what worries them when they get out of bed.

That's the difference, Doug.

[cardw]

It's called the "battelefield" effect. 100 soldiers are praying to be alive. 5 of them survive and it's a "miracle from God". The 95 are not so lucky and never speak about non-miracle from God.

This reminds me of a classic con. This is an approximation of the story, but I think it makes the point about the "battlefield" effect.

In the early days of the stock market a con man sent out letters to 2000 investors. He wrote in this letter that he had discovered a way to predict events in the future with 100% accuracy and he would follow up with two more letters giving 100% predictions. And if each of these investors would follow his advice for investing, all he wanted was 10% of their profits.

1000 of those letters he predicted that a particular stock would go down. The other 1000 he said the stock would go up. This way he was left with 1000 investors with an accurate prediction. He then repeated this again and he was left with 500 investors with 2 correct predictions. He split his pool in half one more time and he was left with 250 investors that had received 3 correct predictions.

He then could manipulate these investors to buy certain stocks which would influence the price artificially and he could profit with options and the 10% he made from their profits. The clever part of this con was that it was difficult to see it as a con because everyone was making money.

He was only caught because a clever investigator began to see a pattern to certain stock transactions and he began to visit the individual investors who were only connected by the letters they all received. They were collectively being manipulated into performing a stock swindle.

[fccool]

Derren Brown, who is a British Mentalist loves to do similar things.

Here he actually flips the coin 10 times in the row:

[joeb]

Quote:

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

Really joeb, institutionalized? I took 4-way hits of windowpane or blotter or orange barrels lots of times (sometimes twice in the same weekend) with lots of other people back in the 70's and none of us were ever institutionalized. I ate a lot of acid with a lot of people over many years; and I never know anyone who was institutionalized 9except maybe overnight). Maybe you guys took 8 - way hits?

I am NOT saying that drug abuse early in my life didn't mess me or my friends up. It did. It took many years to get through my drug related issues. Recovery is part of where I found God.

Maybe I am still kinda messed up. a lot of people on this site find me more than a little strange.

That's not to say all stoners eventually find God. I'm sure that's not the case.

I take it you never had a really bad trip. A lot of people have never come back from them.

I have a good friend I went to high school with that's sitting in an institution because he can no longer be trusted in the outside world. His mind is gone. He went from a good guy with a lot of money that would always help someone who was down on their luck, and who always had very good looking girlfriends to someone who ran around exposing himself to little girls and engaging in other very bizarre behaviors before he was instituionalized. He just isn't "in there" anymore. The guy I knew is just gone, and he's been gone for a couple of decades. It's really sad.

There are also a couple of other people I knew and partied with, but were more aquaintances than friends, who were institutionalized because they never came back from bad trips. They were pretty decent people who just "lost it" and never came back to reality.

LSD can completely blow a person's mind away.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

LSD can completely blow a person's mind away.

Yeah. Reading your post, I remember a few incidents where people were "never the same".

I thank God that protected my mind from that happening.

[joeb]

Quote:

LSD can completely blow a person's mind away.

I thank God that protected my mind from that happening.

And I thank God He gave my mind back to me.

I've often wondered why He has protected me so many times as I have experienced miracles that saved my life from the time I was a first or second grader on throughout my life. All I can say is He must have some reason, but it is still not readily apparent to me. I just look at me and wonder why He has shown me so much love as I'm certainly not deserving of it.

[Ted Oplinger]

LSD can completely blow a person's mind away.

[joeb]

I have heard these thoughts more than once - even from my own lips, as He gave me my mind back nearly 30 years ago after a severe bout with substance abuse.

We do serve an awesome, loving God!

Blessings,

Nice to hear some personal experience from you, Ted. And yes we do serve a loving God whose power we only but dimly comprehend.

[M. T. Cross]

I have heard these thoughts more than once - even from my own lips, as He gave me my mind back nearly 30 years ago after a severe bout with substance abuse.

We do serve an awesome, loving God!

Blessings,

Fair enough. What do you say then to my friend Johnny that would tell you without the guidance and strength he got from Odin he would still be bottoms up in a whiskey bottle with lines of cocaine on the table?

[Gibs]

Satan afflicts man and he can remove the afflictions. Man falls in his trap by trying known dangerous things and gets hooked.

Many are hooked in some way and some of them are quicker death than others. Satan then removes some from his hellish web to make it appear that man of himself was able to break from his "jail".

But that don't mean Satan isn't going on to take that one to destruction that he saw to his advantage at present to release! Unbelievers know not what a Wily foe Satan and his angels have become.

To truly be released from his grasp, one must fall on the Rock, Jesus Christ and at the same time praying with all the heart and soul Satan is not allowed to harm you when being cast out.

Satan has harmed many when being exorcised!

We are not here by happenstance or evolution. Things are degrading not evoluting higher!

Only the True ones in Christ in this world are advancing! It is an advancement that the eyes and mind of ungodly men can never see or hehold now but will get to see it in the second resurrection when they behold the redeemed!

The modern miracles of men and the crafts of Satan is destroying water soil oceans air and all on this planet. Man is a puny creature from the original. It has been found man was 8 to 18 ft. tall in the beginning. Skeletons prove it.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cardw]

Satan afflicts man and he can remove the afflictions. Man falls in his trap by trying known dangerous things and gets hooked.

Many are hooked in some way and some of them are quicker death than others. Satan then removes some from his hellish web to make it appear that man of himself was able to break from his "jail".