Left Powerless Over Sin? No!

[cardw]

Yes, I believe salvation to be science because if you follow the steps that it requires, you do get certain results. As I said, millions over the ages have already tried it first hand and found it to be true. And as I already said, there are a lot more variables that can go wrong when it comes to this experiment that the results do not always come out the way we want. You want first hand evidence like Cardw, then take up the challenge I offered and see it for yourself. I have tried it, and there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that there is a loving Creator who loves and cares about me. Have I had disappointments with God? Of course! But He is too wise to err in granting every desire and whim of mine.

I asked him to heal me from my sinful desires. I asked him to reveal his forgiveness. According to Ellen White these are not whims. These are the very things she instructs to ask for. I took up the challenge.

Nothing changed other than I felt more guilty and rejected.

Now when I did 12 step work I felt change in proportion to doing the steps. I witnessed profound changes in both believers and atheists.

Now science would tell us that neither belief or non-belief did the change. And since the 12 steps are not 100% successful science tells us that there must be some other variable we don't know about. This would require testing different hypothesis based on observed successes and finding the common denominator.

Your example of the application of what you believe is science to salvation is not science. It is easily refuted because it didn't work for Igakusei or me and I have talked with hundreds of others at Freedom From Religion gatherings that report the same types of experiences with the Christian religion.

It is also easily refuted because we see the same types of change with non-believers and non-christians. This shows that Christianity is probably not the factor. We would look at what both Christianity and these other programs share in common. We would also need to look at the individual circumstances because it might be the person themselves and not the program. These people might change no matter what the program.

So if you are holding salvation up to the light of science it is easily shown that salvation has nothing to do with it even though we don't have a definition of what salvation is.

And since we don't even know what salvation is, we really have no way to even test it. This would be like doing an experiment to see if fairy god mothers were important to child rearing.

[cardw]

Paul says "now we see through a glass darkly - but then face to face" 1Cor 13.

John says "we do not know what we shall be - but we know that we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is" 1John 3.

None of them claim to have one-on-one interviews with God on command - and they were apostles.

in Christ,

Bob

That's just evidence that they didn't know what they were talking about.

[Gerr]

I haven't denied your experience!

Why then did you call my arguments as nonsense? Look, they may be nonsense to you, but those arguments I present here are the products of struggling with issues that are probably no different from yours. When my wife had been moaning and groaning from pain for 3 yrs and the last 2 she was moaning and groaning day and night, you don't think there was a struggle? Believe me there were nights I cried too! We tried every treatment modality that traditional and nontraditional medicine offered, to no avail. She wanted to die. She thought of ending all a few times. But on Oct 28 last year, her pain stopped. Knowing what I know about the case, I have not a shadow of a doubt as to the Source of her relief. This is just one incident among many. Not all believers park their brains at the door of the church.

Quote:

Repeatedly in this very thread, I have framed my position such that I think you're wrong for asserting that what worked for you works for everyone else, using my own experience and that of many of my friends as counterexamples. Does that framing not quite clearly that your solution worked for you?

I never consciously make myself, my experiences, or my views as the standard for everyone else. That would be a denial of the experiences of others. And that would be the height of arrogance! If I have given that impression, then that's my bad, and I apologize profusely. What I present as truths for me are seen only through a keyhole or seen through a "glass darkly", so there's no way that I can be very dogmatic about them.

Quote:

My argument is consistent with your experience being genuine from your perspective, and I generally treat that with respect and don't go around telling people that God doesn't exist and they're all deluded sheep.

Your argument is that my experience is impossible, so I must either be lying or mistaken or something else that doesn'tacknowledge it as genuine.

You will never find in any of my posts claiming that your experience is impossible, or that I ever called you a liar. But as I said, if I gave you that impression, again, my profuse apologies. Only when that better Day comes will we be able to see why our life journey took the turns it did.

[Gerr]

At the heart of the 12 step program is the acknowledgment of one's moral bankruptcy, and that only a higher power can deliver a person from their addiction.

As long as we are in this body, those desires will never be totally eradicated until we receive a new body. But God promised grace to not be a slave to them.

[Gerr]

That just about sums up ages 4 - 16 for me. As soon as I could read I buried myself in the Bible. I read, I prayed, I believed and had faith with all my heart and yet there was NOTHING. I did the same with EGW, but I got something out of that. Pure terror, an overwhelming sense of guilt and the belief that I could never ever ever ( I feel like Taylor Swift there LOL ) be good enough for God.

We can never be good enough for God. That is the absolute biblical truth. That should being terror to anyone who realizes it. That's why God Himself provided the remedy - One who is absolutely good enough to be our Substitute, to be received by faith. Received and dwelling in us by faith, God sees not our unworthiness but the perfection of His Son, and treats us as if we have never sinned. That is the Good News. The question is, do you believe and accept it?

[Igakusei]

You will never find in any of my posts claiming that your experience is impossible, or that I ever called you a liar. But as I said, if I gave you that impression, again, my profuse apologies. Only when that better Day comes will we be able to see why our life journey took the turns it did.

[cardw]

At the heart of the 12 step program is the acknowledgment of one's moral bankruptcy, and that only a higher power can deliver a person from their addiction.

As long as we are in this body, those desires will never be totally eradicated until we receive a new body. But God promised grace to not be a slave to them.

Higher power can be reason. This is the accountability within Rational Recovery, which is a 12 step for atheists. Addiction is irrational.

I know a number of people who have been completely freed from the desire to drink. This idea that people can't overcome is simply a way to keep people enslaved to a superstitious dependence on imaginary future reward. This is one reason that so many Christians are emotionally immature. They don't really sense the idea of accountability and rigorous honesty. They just pray their magical prayers so they can feel good without accountability.

This still does not negate the fact that Christianity is not the only way for people to recover.

There are a number of non deistic methods of change that claim no divine power. Generally courage and the willingness to be honest are all that is required.

[M. T. Cross]

Gerry, see there is the heart of the issue to me.

So this God creates us, gives us free will, and when the first two people he created make ONE mistake, have ONE moment of doubt, then the trillions of people that come after them all have to pay for it? That we, his children, will never ever be good enough for him except through a surrogate big brother? One that apparently came and lived as a man, but was still fully God, so he really totally had an upper hand in the whole thing?

This same God gave us this intellect, yet for 2 thousand years he has kept silent while our science progresses and comes up with so very many reasons to downright scoff his existence? ( I am not doing that, but I can see why people do. )

For me Gerry, that reeks of an abusive and manipulative entity. But all the science in the world aside, it is my observation of the "learned" men and women that teach "his word" that put the most doubt in place for me. They are the living walking proof that convinces me that the Bible is totally unconvincing in its message and leads down a road to self loathing and bigotry. Two things that I think are more destructive than any supreme evil being that may or may not exist.

I am all in favour of you finding your peace with it. But no, I can not believe and accept it, I do not see it as good news at all. I see it as that much more to cloud and confuse an existence that is already convoluted enough.

[cardw]

You don't have to explicitly say it, but it's strongly implied every time you make a comment like this:

Quote:

You want first hand evidence like Cardw, then take up the challenge I offered and see it for yourself.

...immediately following about a dozen posts of me describing taking up that challenge. To you it's so simple, and you apparently don't realize how statements like this sound to people who have spent years desperately beseeching God for answers and getting dead silence in reply. I know you don't intend it this way, but it comes across as fairly insulting.

I want to add that I took up this challenge for decades as well. It is the most torturous existence to try to live within the silence of any god. You will find hundreds of testimonies to this same thing posted at numerous websites.

What Joeb and Gary are essentially saying is that Igakusei and I are liars or we are somehow no trying hard enough.

Igakusei is being kind here. This is tremendously insulting. This video response by Christopher Hitches really expresses it for me.

[Gerr]

Higher power can be reason. This is the accountability within Rational Recovery, which is a 12 step for atheists. Addiction is irrational.

That's what sin does. It makes perfectly rational people do irrational things.

Quote:

This still does not negate the fact that Christianity is not the only way for people to recover.

There are a number of non deistic methods of change that claim no divine power. Generally courage and the willingness to be honest are all that is required.

And what is that solution that eradicates evil from the heart apart from Christ?

[Gerr]

Gerry, see there is the heart of the issue to me.

So this God creates us, gives us free will, and when the first two people he created make ONE mistake, have ONE moment of doubt, then the trillions of people that come after them all have to pay for it?

This very issue used to REALLY bother me. Then I realized that we have been placed on the same level as Adam & Eve. We are NOT condemned because of what they did although we do suffer the consequences of their transgression.

ESV | ýJn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. ý18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. ý19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

ESV Ro 3:20 where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

So in the end, it's not the transgression of Adam & Eve that condemns us, it is whether we accept and believe what He did.

Quote:

This same God gave us this intellect, yet for 2 thousand years he has kept silent while our science progresses and comes up with so very many reasons to downright scoff his existence? ( I am not doing that, but I can see why people do.

I have wrestled with the same problem because my brother posed similar questions along those lines. Yes, we want concrete answers to silence the critics. Like the Jews, we want Jesus to come down from the cross, THEN we would believe. It would be convenient if He could come again in our day as He did 2k yrs ago. But then each generation & nation would want the same thing. But Scripture says, "He did it once for all." We also want to see miracles and the power of God demonstrated. Miracles may and can provide a spark for faith. But I am reminded of Pharaoh who saw all kinds of miracles, yet only moved him briefly. The adult Israelites that left Egypt saw all those miracles, ate bread that came from heaven, saw the awesome manifestions of God's glory on Mt Sinai with thunder, lightning, and earthquake. Yet they all perished in the desert through unbelief.

I frankly do not have a satisfactory answer as to why He leaves us only with the evidence of His word and His handprints in the natural world.

Quote:

For me Gerry, that reeks of an abusive and manipulative entity. But all the science in the world aside, it is my observation of the "learned" men and women that teach "his word" that put the most doubt in place for me. They are the living walking proof that convinces me that the Bible is totally unconvincing in its message and leads down a road to self loathing and bigotry. Two things that I think are more destructive than any supreme evil being that may or may not exist.

I cannot believe that God would give us free will and then manipulates it. This may in fact be the reason that He doesn't come down in glory, lightning, thunder, and earthquake again and again. Wouldn't that be coercive? But He IS coming again in power & great glory, but then it would be too late. So as the Scripture says, "Today, if you hear His voice..." listen.

BTW, I am curious as to how those who are teaching His word confusing the issue?

Quote:

I am all in favour of you finding your peace with it. But no, I can not believe and accept it, I do not see it as good news at all. I see it as that much more to cloud and confuse an existence that is already convoluted enough.

So what solution, what hope, do you offer in this convoluted world?

[Gerr]

I have no idea how you have gone about your quest. I remember very well in chem lab the experiments that I had to repeat because I had inadvertently omitted some steps. I posed the challenge not to insult your intelligence or deny your experience, but rather to raise the possibility that some step was inadvertently omitted in your quest.

[Igakusei]

I have no idea how you have gone about your quest. I remember very well in chem lab the experiments that I had to repeat because I had inadvertently omitted some steps. I posed the challenge not to insult your intelligence or deny your experience, but rather to raise the possibility that some step was inadvertently omitted in your quest.

Exactly, but that's just the problem: Christianity is a one-trick Pony. It offers one solution, and no matter how hard or how long or how many different ways I attempt to use that solution, if it doesn't work I must have "omitted a step." That's it, there's nothing else for you to offer because there is no Plan B. You, my parents, my teachers, my peers, and every single other source of guidance and wisdom in the life of a Christian youth simply repeats that mantra over and over again: "It worked for me, you just have to do what I did! Follow God!"

Did you see how Bob hopped into the thread out of nowhere and gave me a bible study on the verse that I had been paraphrasing for the last six pages, as if I wasn't familiar with it or something? It's ALWAYS the same: I must not understand, I must not have done things right, so we need to patiently explain the plan and hopefully I'll get it right next time.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Higher power can be reason. This is the accountability within Rational Recovery, which is a 12 step for atheists. Addiction is irrational.

That's what sin does. It makes perfectly rational people do irrational things.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

What have I said that attempts to explain away your experience? I haven't said anything along those lines. Nothing. I've said what my experience is. Period. I've also apologized when you said I misread your post. How is apologizing for a problem in communication anywhere close to an attempt at marginalizing you?

Do you still believe that everyone who earnestly seeks answers from God gets them? Because every time you say that, and you've asserted it repeatedly, you're blaming the victims of Christianity's failure to give them the answers they desperately need for Christianity's failure to provide those answers. Remember my friend who recalled tearing at her sheets while screaming for God to provide her with something, anything? Every time you assert that people who earnestly seek will find, and that if they simply ask God for help that he will provide what they need, you make us relive those countless days and nights of emotional torment, racking our hearts and minds for what we might possibly be doing wrong that prevents God from intervening as promised. So we leave, and you never hear from most of us again, because associating with people who believe as you do is simply too painful for many of us to tolerate.

Yes, I believe that all who earnestly seek God will find Him. That's not a put-down to you or anyone else. It's who I believe, know, God to be. A loving God, a God who is willing to sacrifice Himself for those who He knows will reject Him, will not ignore anyone who honestly and earnestly wants to get to know Him. It's simply not a part of His character.

That people have found the search for God to be painful is not something I enjoy hearing. I'm very sorry to hear about those experiences and I have nothing but empathy for anyone who has gone through such an experience, but it does not change how I see God. He's done too many things in my life for me to see Him any other way.

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

Two years after losing it I took a battery of aptitude tests at a college near where I lived and tested at the 95th percentile and above in all but one test. In that test I inadvertently skipped a question and didn't discover it until I was about 3/4 of the way through the test. I went back, found my mistake at almost the beginning of the test, fixed the problems, but then ran out of time so I didn't finish the test. I scored at the 75th percentile in that test.

I finally went back to school in 2000 and carried a 3.89 GPA. I was actually better in things like algebra and trig than I had ever been before. The only reason my GPA wasn't a 4.0 is because I was a political conservative in a class taught by a far-left marxist teaching a political science class. Needless to say, we really clashed.

I didn't relate this to brag on myself, but to show the remarkable power and love of God to regenerate us back into His image, no matter how far we have fallen into degredation.

Just as a result of your experiences where you cannot see any other possibility than what you see of God, I have a very difficult seeing a God who is any different than the One I have come to know. That doesn't mean I deny your experience or cannot empathize with your, and other's, pain. I don't try to rationalize it away either. It's simply something that doesn't fit with anything I know to be true.

I won't pretend my search for God was easy-peasy and without pain. It was painful, extremely painful, at times. It's like my marriage. It's been pretty painful at times, but the woman I know today is well worth the pain it cost in getting to know her as well as I do today. If I hadn't persevered through the pain I'd have never gotten to the point where I am now in my marriage. The same with my knowledge of God and my relationship with Him.

I see all the psychological abuse I suffered growing up in the same light as how I see my marraige now too. There are long periods of my life I consider to be nothing but long periods of pure h e l l that I would not, could not, wish on my worst enemy. The pain was unbelievable. However, because of it I have learned things I would have never known otherwise and have an empathy for the pain others have experienced that I would never been able to empathize with otherwise. I consider those years of pain, anguish, incredible loneliness, and major depression to be a blessing now. Those years of abuse, the recovery from losing it on acid, etc... are a part of my search for God. They were very painful, but the reward of knowing God is more than worth all the pain.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I'm coming from, and that I don't look down on you or think there's something wrong with you because you haven't yet found God. I know He's still there wanting to know you, even though you've given up on Him. And, I don't blame you for having come to the conclusions you have at this point in your life. There is, however, still further chapters of your life that remain to be written, and in one of those, if you still remain in an honest search to know God, you will find Him. You'll search until He finds you. (Ever read the story of the prodigal son? Think his search for his father wasn't painful?)

[cardw]

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

I guess you are special because god didn't care about those other people.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

I guess you are special because god didn't care about those other people.

You can read anything you want into what I said. I certainly can't stop you as it's your God-given right to perceive, or claim to perceive, anything you want. Have at it.

[cardw]

One of the things He's done in my life is to take me from someone who watched his mind fly out the window on a 4-way hit of windowpane back in the 70's and brought me back from those consequences. The other people I've known who had that kind of trip are still institutionalized.

Originally Posted By: cardw

I guess you are special because god didn't care about those other people.

You can read anything you want into what I said. I certainly can't stop you as it's your God-given right to perceive, or claim to perceive, anything you want. Have at it.

It's a point of reason, not perception.

[joeb]

It's a point of reason, not perception.

No, it's not reason. I addressed your issue in my post. Just because someone doesn't know God at any one point in their life doesn't mean they will not get to know Him later. My life is an illustration of just that point, as at one time I could have cared less about knowing Him. All I cared about was getting high to mask the pain my family inflicted on me. That doesn't make me special. It makes me a pretty common occurrence.

BTW, thanks for saving my life....

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It's a point of reason, not perception.

No, it's not reason. I addressed your issue in my post. Just because someone doesn't know God at any one point in their life doesn't mean they will not get to know Him later. My life is an illustration of just that point, as at one time I could have cared less about knowing Him. All I cared about was getting high to mask the pain my family inflicted on me. That doesn't make me special. It makes me a pretty common occurrence.

BTW, thanks for saving my life....

A lot of people recover from addiction without a belief in god. So your experience, as wonderful as it is, is not evidence of god.

The point of reason is why doesn't god help everyone out like he helped you?

My whole church inflicted pain on me and I recovered. I recovered because I stopped believing in god. I'm actually thankful that people did harmful things to me because I wouldn't have looked as carefully into the claims of Christianity.

Let me mirror back how you come across to us who have vivid experiences of decades of disappointment.

I have been set free. You know it can happen to you. Just because someone believes in god at one point in their life doesn't mean they won't get over it. My life is an illustration of just that point, as at one time I really dedicated my life to god. All I cared about was getting to heaven to mask the pain of knowing that I was a filthy sinner. That doesn't make me special. It makes me a pretty common experience.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I'm coming from, and that I don't look down on you or think there's something wrong with you because you believe in God. I know He's not there wanting to know you, even though you've given your trust to Him. And, I don't blame you for having come to the conclusions you have at this point in your life. There is, however, still further chapters of your life that remain to be written, and in one of those, if you still remain in an honest search to know God, you will find that it's a myth.

[skyblue888]

Why did the Israelites have to spend 400 years as slaves in Egypt? Are we to understand that it was God's plan that they should remain there for so long! Why did God send Moses to deliver His people when He did? Simply because it took all this time before they started to cry to God for deliverance.

"Call upon Me in the time of trouble and I will deliver you and you shall glorify Me." Psalm 50:15.

[joeb]

A lot of people recover from addiction without a belief in god. So your experience, as wonderful as it is, is not evidence of god.

The point of reason is why doesn't god help everyone out like he helped you?

My whole church inflicted pain on me and I recovered. I recovered because I stopped believing in god. I'm actually thankful that people did harmful things to me because I wouldn't have looked as carefully into the claims of Christianity.

Let me mirror back how you come across to us who have vivid experiences of decades of disappointment.

I have been set free. You know it can happen to you. Just because someone believes in god at one point in their life doesn't mean they won't get over it. My life is an illustration of just that point, as at one time I really dedicated my life to god. All I cared about was getting to heaven to mask the pain of knowing that I was a filthy sinner. That doesn't make me special. It makes me a pretty common experience.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I'm coming from, and that I don't look down on you or think there's something wrong with you because you believe in God. I know He's not there wanting to know you, even though you've given your trust to Him. And, I don't blame you for having come to the conclusions you have at this point in your life. There is, however, still further chapters of your life that remain to be written, and in one of those, if you still remain in an honest search to know God, you will find that it's a myth.

Like I said, thanks for saving my life....

You're welcome to disagree with me as much as you like. I see no point in arguing with you because we are coming from diametrically opposing paradigms. That leads to a "never the twain shall meet" situation so beating up on each other does no good.

You say you're happy? Good for you. I'm not going to tell you that you aren't. I'll tell you that there's a hole in your heart large enough that only God can fill though. You don't buy that? That's OK with me too as it's your choice, and your right, to disagree. I can't convice you of anything against your will, and I have no desire to try.

[M. T. Cross]

Why did the Israelites have to spend 400 years as slaves in Egypt? Are we to understand that it was God's plan that they should remain there for so long! Why did God send Moses to deliver His people when He did? Simply because it took all this time before they started to cry to God for deliverance.

"Call upon Me in the time of trouble and I will deliver you and you shall glorify Me." Psalm 50:15.

I am going to use this post as my example here. This theory has been repeated over and over in this thread.

But if those that keep throwing a version of this mentality out at Ig, Card and myself would actually take the time to really read what we are saying, as in not just looking at the words, but really read you will discover something.

In the years we were Christians, we all "called on him" in our times of trouble. Sometimes desperate pleading. We all believed deeply, we had that FAITH.

But in the end nothing. Not even a glimmer of light, a sliver of hope. I doubt any of us expected the Lord to sit down and have a tea with us, but there could have been at least a feeling ya know.

So for us........... I would say Psalm 50:15 is basically a lie. Or of course maybe we just did not believe hard enough - right?

[cardw]

Why did the Israelites have to spend 400 years as slaves in Egypt? Are we to understand that it was God's plan that they should remain there for so long! Why did God send Moses to deliver His people when He did? Simply because it took all this time before they started to cry to God for deliverance.

"Call upon Me in the time of trouble and I will deliver you and you shall glorify Me." Psalm 50:15.

That's my problem. I need to wait 400 years. It doesn't matter that I was crying for deliverance.

The fact is that it doesn't work because as Christians, the excuse is sin will always be with us and we won't be perfect on this side of heaven. How would you know it's working when you still continue to sin?

Answer: It doesn't work.

[Igakusei]

Yes, I believe that all who earnestly seek God will find Him. That's not a put-down to you or anyone else. It's who I believe, know, God to be. A loving God, a God who is willing to sacrifice Himself for those who He knows will reject Him, will not ignore anyone who honestly and earnestly wants to get to know Him. It's simply not a part of His character.