Righteousness by Faith

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

After accepting this message of total righteousness here and now, a young worker "confessed" he no longer had to pray the Lord's Prayer because he had stopped sinning. Had he reached to goal?

LOL. Why not try a serious post? If you have something to discuss, why not try that rather than putting up a straw man argument.

Joeb,

Why do you accuse me of making up a straw man? This is a real and a serious case. I was present myself at this workers meeting where the young worker asked himself if he could give a personal testimony where he stated that now it was so long since he had committed a sin that he could not remember when it happened.

Then one of the pastors asked him if he no longer said the Lord's Prayer. He replied that he did not need it any more since he was not sinning.

His testimony was an appeal to the pastors to follow his example and to read the "sound" SDA literature which had taught him how to live without sin.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

The Law requires a perfect righteousness - it makes no differentiation between fractions of sin. That is why perfect imputed righteousness must indeed be ours in Christ, while imparted righteousness demonstrates Christ is indeed making the imputed a reality in our lives.

Let me put the question another way which I can't seem to get across.

On day one at the moment a sinner believes, he receives the righteousness of Christ 100%, although he has not done one righteous act. At that same moment he is also sanctified, but that is just the beginning of a lifetime journey. He takes his first spiritual baby steps. Do his first baby steps match the perfect steps of Jesus?

[Johann]

Just recently I heard a peacher say that why not make a list of all the wonderful things we can do on Sabbath, rather than having the list before us of all the things we are not allowed to do? Doesn't the commandment state what we are to do on Sabbath?

Isn't that what you are also saying, Ted?

[Ted Oplinger]

Just recently I heard a peacher say that why not make a list of all the wonderful things we can do on Sabbath, rather than having the list before us of all the things we are not allowed to do? Doesn't the commandment state what we are to do on Sabbath?

Isn't that what you are also saying, Ted?

Well, yes, and no.

Yes, it is a positive, encouraging thing to list out the many great things to do on Sabbath....

And No, as true righteousness is not a positive "to do list", nor a negative "don't do list".

In a nut shell - All of the clashes Jesus had with the scribes and Pharisees about Sabbath was indeed on what activities were included in proper Sabbath-keeping, but Jesus never kept or commanded a "to do" or "don't do" list.

Christ's directions as to what constituted a proper keeping holy the Sabbath, came from the Father, as He guided Christ into those activities He wanted Jesus to do.

Christ gave us an example to follow - both in what He did do on Sabbath, and in how those activities were chosen.

Blessings,

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

Just recently I heard a peacher say that why not make a list of all the wonderful things we can do on Sabbath, rather than having the list before us of all the things we are not allowed to do? Doesn't the commandment state what we are to do on Sabbath?

Isn't that what you are also saying, Ted?

Well, yes, and no.

Yes, it is a positive, encouraging thing to list out the many great things to do on Sabbath....

And No, as true righteousness is not a positive "to do list", nor a negative "don't do list".

In a nut shell - All of the clashes Jesus had with the scribes and Pharisees about Sabbath was indeed on what activities were included in proper Sabbath-keeping, but Jesus never kept or commanded a "to do" or "don't do" list.

Christ's directions as to what constituted a proper keeping holy the Sabbath, came from the Father, as He guided Christ into those activities He wanted Jesus to do.

Christ gave us an example to follow - both in what He did do on Sabbath, and in how those activities were chosen.

Blessings,

That sounds quite close

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: joeb

LOL. Why not try a serious post? If you have something to discuss, why not try that rather than putting up a straw man argument. [/quote']

Joeb,

Why do you accuse me of making up a straw man? This is a real and a serious case. I was present myself at this workers meeting where the young worker asked himself if he could give a personal testimony where he stated that now it was so long since he had committed a sin that he could not remember when it happened.

Then one of the pastors asked him if he no longer said the Lord's Prayer. He replied that he did not need it any more since he was not sinning.

His testimony was an appeal to the pastors to follow his example and to read the "sound" SDA literature which had taught him how to live without sin.

__________________________________

In the eighties, I met with a group who called themselves CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. They were based in California. Someone I knew in those days invited me to attend their camp meeting. When I got there with my wife and children, my friend wasted no time to introduce me to the leader who invited me to sit down with him. He was surrounded by what seemed to be the most influential in the group. So as we were chatting one after another began to tell me how they had not sinned in weeks or in months or even in years.

They asked me if I could give a like testimony. My reply to them was that even if that was the case I would be the last one to make such a claim and that instead I would always confess myself as the chief of sinners! They looked at me in disbelief. They told me I was a lost man and that I needed to be anointed so that I could experience victory like they were. They asked me to kneel down and the leader would lay his hand on me but I refused because I knew they had been mislead.

I told them about the apostle Paul who even after he had walked with God for more than 30 years confessed at the end of his life that he was the chief of sinners. Paul was actuated by the spirit of the Gospel. His only boast was in the Lord. He knew that without Christ he was capable of the worse sins he saw his fellowmen committing.

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Tim.1:15.

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourself erring, helpless, condemned sinners." E.G. White.

To those who continually acknowledge this there is no condemnation for they are in Christ. Rom.8:1.

It was not the Pharisee who went down to his house justified that day after worshipping at the temple, but the Publican who dared not even lift up his eyes toward heaven but kept accusing himself a sinner in need of God's remedy.

sky

[Johann]

I met with that group already about 1956. Could be very sincere and nice people.

[skyblue888]

There are a lot of sincere people in the world and in the churches and yet they may be deceived.

sky

[joeb]

It is one thing to claim that I have the ability to choose to drive the speed limit -- it is another to claim that I always choose to do it.

And should I get a ticket - I cannot plead the case that I was forced to speed by my sinful nature and could not help myself.

in Christ,

Bob

Agreed.

The reason we do not always make the right choice is always a failure in our relationship with Christ. The devil persuades us to take our eyes of Christ through one or the other of devices he uses to distract us from keeping our eyes focused on Christ. When that happens our faith fails us and we fail to walk in Christ's footsteps. It doesn't matter what the device is, the end result is the same.

This is exactly what happened with Peter when he walked on water. He took his eyes off Christ, lost his faith, became a afraid as he started to trust to self, and started to sink beneath the waves. This is a great allegory of our walk with Christ and sanctification. As long as we are focused on Christ and claim His promises we can, so to speak, walk on water as far as sanctification is concerned. For sanctification is totally God's work within is. It is by faith that we walk by the Spirit.

[joeb]

Joeb,

Why do you accuse me of making up a straw man? This is a real and a serious case. I was present myself at this workers meeting where the young worker asked himself if he could give a personal testimony where he stated that now it was so long since he had committed a sin that he could not remember when it happened.

Then one of the pastors asked him if he no longer said the Lord's Prayer. He replied that he did not need it any more since he was not sinning.

His testimony was an appeal to the pastors to follow his example and to read the "sound" SDA literature which had taught him how to live without sin.

__________________________________

In the eighties, I met with a group who called themselves CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. They were based in California. Someone I knew in those days invited me to attend their camp meeting. When I got there with my wife and children, my friend wasted no time to introduce me to the leader who invited me to sit down with him. He was surrounded by what seemed to be the most influential in the group. So as we were chatting one after another began to tell me how they had not sinned in weeks or in months or even in years.

They asked me if I could give a like testimony. My reply to them was that even if that was the case I would be the last one to make such a claim and that instead I would always confess myself as the chief of sinners! They looked at me in disbelief. They told me I was a lost man and that I needed to be anointed so that I could experience victory like they were. They asked me to kneel down and the leader would lay his hand on me but I refused because I knew they had been mislead.

I told them about the apostle Paul who even after he had walked with God for more than 30 years confessed at the end of his life that he was the chief of sinners. Paul was actuated by the spirit of the Gospel. His only boast was in the Lord. He knew that without Christ he was capable of the worse sins he saw his fellowmen committing.

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Tim.1:15.

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourself erring, helpless, condemned sinners." E.G. White.

To those who continually acknowledge this there is no condemnation for they are in Christ. Rom.8:1.

It was not the Pharisee who went down to his house justified that day after worshipping at the temple, but the Publican who dared not even lift up his eyes toward heaven but kept accusing himself a sinner in need of God's remedy.

sky

Unless you also post under the name of Johann, the post was not directed at you. I can't quote 2 levels deep in a reply so you'll have to go back and look for yourself.

[joeb]

I met with that group already about 1956. Could be very sincere and nice people.

You're going to have to explain yourself. You lost me. I have no idea to what group of people you're referring to.

[joeb]

Gerry,

I have a quote for you that addresses your belief that God cannot overcome "sinful flesh" in His perfection of our characters. I am giving an extended quote so that the context can be clearly seen.

Quote:

Through Christ, God works to bring man back to his first relation to his

Creator and to correct the disorganizing influences brought in by Satan. Christ alone stood unpolluted in a world of selfishness, where men would destroy a friend or a brother in order to accomplish a scheme put into their hands by Satan. Christ came to our world, clothing His divinity with humanity, that humanity might touch humanity and divinity grasp divinity. Amid the din of selfishness He could say to men: Return to your center—God. He Himself made it possible for man to do this by carrying out in this world the principles of heaven. In humanity He lived the law of God. To men in every nation, every country, every clime, He will impart heaven’s choicest gifts if they will accept God as their Creator and Christ as their Redeemer.

Christ alone can do this. His gospel in the hearts and hands of His

followers is the power which is to accomplish this great work. “O the depth of

the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!” By Himself becoming

subject to Satan’s misrepresentations, Christ made it possible for the work of

redemption to be accomplished. Thus was Satan to show himself to be the

cause of disloyalty in God’s universe. Thus was to be forever settled the great

controversy between Christ and Satan.

Satan strengthens the destructive tendencies of man’s nature. He brings in

envy, jealousy, selfishness, covetousness, emulation, and strife for the highest

place. Evil agencies act their part through the devising of Satan. Thus the

enemy’s plans, with their destructive tendencies, have been brought into the

church. Christ comes with His own redeeming influence, proposing through

the agency of His Spirit to impart His efficiency to men, and to employ them

as His instrumentalities, laborers together with Him in seeking to draw the

world back to its loyalty.

Men are bound in fellowship, in dependence, to one another. By the golden

links of the chain of love they are to be bound fast to the throne of God. This

can be done only by Christ’s imparting to finite man the attributes which man

would ever have possessed had he remained loyal and true to God.

Those who, through an intelligent understanding of the Scriptures, view

the cross aright, those who truly believe in Jesus, have a sure foundation for

their faith. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul from

all its hereditary and cultivated imperfections. Testimonies vol 6 pp. 237,238

[joeb]

Ted,

I have to modify a position of mine that I expressed to you. I ran across a quote that I know I've read before, as I've read Christ's Object Lessons more than once but had either never grasped it's significance, or if I had I had forgotten it. What's odd is that I remembered the phrase "not one thread of human devising", but forgot all the rest of it. I found the quote by searching for the phrase I remembered.

This has to do with my position that Christ's robe of righteousness is justfication, not a combination of justification and sanctification. The idea expressed here is sublime in its beauty. Oh, what food for the soul.

Quote:

Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God’s presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. “I counsel thee,” He says, “to buy of Me ... white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear.” Revelation 3:18.

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. “All our righteousness are as filthy rags.” Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God “was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.” Sin is defined to be “the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, “I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart.” Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, “I have kept My Father’s commandments.” John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God’s commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. COL pp. 311,312

[joeb]

I have one more quote which I found this weekend on faith in Christ and eternal life. I don't know how you all will find this concept, but I found it amazing and eye-opening.

Quote:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life.” Through the beloved John, who listened to these words, the Holy Spirit declared to the churches, “This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life.” 1 John 5:11, 12. And Jesus said, “I will raise him up at the last day.” Christ became one flesh with us, in order that we might become one spirit with Him. It is by virtue of this union that we are to come forth from the grave,—not merely as a manifestation of the power of Christ, but because, through faith, His life has become ours. Those who see Christ in His true character, and receive Him into the heart, have everlasting life. It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the eginning of the life eternal. Desire of Ages p.

By exprapolation the following is true.

It is not until we allow Christ's life to become ours through complete surrender of self that we have eternal life. Why? Because through faith in Him His life has become ours, and that is not possible without an entire surrender of self on our part. Anything less on our part is presumption.