7 Kings/Popes theory - does it hold water, or is it washed up?

[Ted Oplinger]

In the World Affairs forum, I posted this in the thread speculating about the current Pope's replacement:

About the Pope counting thing...it would hold water, but Benedict XVI skips XV, and is called an "antipope" place-holder between John Paul II and the "AntiChrist Pope".

Isn't that about like saying Daniel's 70th week was "put on hold" for the Age of the Gentiles?

Well, Henry (and others) - here's your opportunity. Does the 7 Popes theory hold water? Does the placement of "antipope" placeholders mean it's a washout?

To others - are there other cracks in the eschatology?

Since speculation abounds and people are pointing to this as to how close we are...let's discuss.

Blessings,

[joeb]

Well, I have only one comment. I've always found this subject so speculative I've never bothered with it. That wasn't why I posted though.

The reason I posted was that when I first read your "quoted" word I read it as "antipipe", and wondered what that was all about, and what it had to do with a pope. LOL. I think my reading may be going the way of my hearing....

[Ted Oplinger]

Well, I have only one comment. I've always found this subject so speculative I've never bothered with it. That wasn't why I posted though.

The reason I posted was that when I first read your "quoted" word I read it as "antipipe", and wondered what that was all about, and what it had to do with a pope. LOL. I think my reading may be going the way of my hearing....

A Pope with an "antipipe"...that would explain a few things about Vatican policy-making...

[skyblue888]

We know that "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition" (Rev.17:11) is the papacy. The papacy is the eighth head. Before 1798 the papal power ruled supreme. She was then the fifth head. In 1798 the papal power received a deadly wound having lost her temporal supremacy at the hand of Napoleon (sixth head otherwise called Atheistic France). Therefore after 1798 the papal power is not (no longer ruling) but the time is coming when the deadly wound will be healed with the help of Apostate Protestantism (the seventh head which is to come when it shall receive power from the State to enforce the child of the papacy). Then the papal power will regain her supremacy and will rule the world again.

So it is easy to see that these 7 heads have nothing to do with a succession of popes in these last days.

It is an undeniable fact that since 1798 Atheism has been taking the ascendancy in the world. It has been pushing at the established religions (Christendom; beast and his image) to the point that today Atheism is more popular than these established religions. The only way for the king of the north (beast and his image) to regain his supremacy (healing of the wound) is by uniting church and state and wield the power of the State to bring the king of the south (Atheism) into subjection by forcing him (atheists) to be religious and it will be through the enactment of Sunday as the day of worship for all.

This is how the king of the north will come back at the king of the south like a whirlwind.

sky

[hch]

We know that "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition" (Rev.17:11) is the papacy. The papacy is the eighth head. Before 1798 the papal power ruled supreme. She was then the fifth head. In 1798 the papal power received a deadly wound having lost her temporal supremacy at the hand of Napoleon (sixth head otherwise called Atheistic France). Therefore after 1798 the papal power is not (no longer ruling) but the time is coming when the deadly wound will be healed with the help of Apostate Protestantism (the seventh head which is to come when it shall receive power from the State to enforce the child of the papacy). Then the papal power will regain her supremacy and will rule the world again.

So it is easy to see that these 7 heads have nothing to do with a succession of popes in these last days.

It is an undeniable fact that since 1798 Atheism has been taking the ascendancy in the world. It has been pushing at the established religions (Christendom; beast and his image) to the point that today Atheism is more popular than these established religions. The only way for the king of the north (beast and his image) to regain his supremacy (healing of the wound) is by uniting church and state and wield the power of the State to bring the king of the south (Atheism) into subjection by forcing him (atheists) to be religious and it will be through the enactment of Sunday as the day of worship for all.

This is how the king of the north will come back at the king of the south like a whirlwind.

sky

We are discussing this on another thread come join us.

[Ted Oplinger]

We know that "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition" (Rev.17:11) is the papacy. The papacy is the eighth head. Before 1798 the papal power ruled supreme. She was then the fifth head. In 1798 the papal power received a deadly wound having lost her temporal supremacy at the hand of Napoleon (sixth head otherwise called Atheistic France). Therefore after 1798 the papal power is not (no longer ruling) but the time is coming when the deadly wound will be healed with the help of Apostate Protestantism (the seventh head which is to come when it shall receive power from the State to enforce the child of the papacy). Then the papal power will regain her supremacy and will rule the world again.

So it is easy to see that these 7 heads have nothing to do with a succession of popes in these last days.

It is an undeniable fact that since 1798 Atheism has been taking the ascendancy in the world. It has been pushing at the established religions (Christendom; beast and his image) to the point that today Atheism is more popular than these established religions. The only way for the king of the north (beast and his image) to regain his supremacy (healing of the wound) is by uniting church and state and wield the power of the State to bring the king of the south (Atheism) into subjection by forcing him (atheists) to be religious and it will be through the enactment of Sunday as the day of worship for all.

This is how the king of the north will come back at the king of the south like a whirlwind.

sky

That is how SDA's typical view the symbols there, Sky - have belonged to that school of thought every since I was baptized.

That said, I am acutely aware some of Revelation's texts have dual, even triple application meanings (Revelation 2,3 is an excellent example of this, where the same letter/church symbolism has 3 different applications, all equally valid). I try to keep an open mind when studying (and re-studying) prophecy, as something may well pop up that one never considered before.

The heart of my opening post is the consideration of whether that beast has a two-fold application - and whether this 7 Kings/Popes interpretation is a valid second application (one which hasn't been given much attention).

Looking back at the Daily thread, this particular perspective got wrapped into the discussion on Daniel 8:11's supplied word "sacrifice". Quite a bit of conflation occurred, but I distinctly remembered the mention of a dual application with respect to the Beast of Revelation 13/17...and that piqued my curiosity. Hence, I am opening this up to discuss this.

Blessings,

[skyblue888]

Ted, what I have posted here about the seven heads is far from being the traditional interpretation. The key to understanding who these seven heads are is to find the point of reference for the five that have fallen. Then we may know who the one is and the one that is yet to come and the eighth which was, is not, and is again.

The point of reference is clearly given in Rev.17:3. John is taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he sees the papal power wounded to death in 1798. Only then was the papacy in the "wilderness" which means to be persecuted. Before 1798 the papacy reigned as a queen. But after the deadly wound she is no longer in the sense that she has lost her temporal power. Only when she regains her temporal power will her wound be healed. And it is with the help of Apostate Protestantism, the one that is yet to come, that the papacy will regain her supremacy.

Apostate Protestantism is the seventh head. It does not have a kingdom yet but it will receive a kingdom when church and state shall unite and it will wield the power of the State to enforce Sunday and thus it will make an image to the papal power.

Then and only then will the papal power regain her temporal and spiritual supremacy and persecution will raise its ugly head again.

So the papacy is of the seven and she will be the eighth.

1798 being the point of reference:

We have five that have fallen:

1. Papal Rome in 1798

2. Pagan Rome in A.D.476

3. Greece

2. Medo-Persia

1. Babylon

One is, Atheism (spiritual Egypt in 1798) until now.

One is yet to come: Apostate Protestantism

The eighth: the papacy which was before 1798, is not after 1798 and is again when her wound shall be healed.

[Ted Oplinger]

Daniel 7 is the appropriate place to start this little quest, for it is here we are first introduced to the Beast.

Daniel's vision here sees 4 beasts, each different form the others, and is given the interpretation of what these beasts are later:

First beast - verses 4 - A lion with eagle's wings, which then plucked off. This lion was made to stand up on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given it.

Second beast - verse 5 - A bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs in its mouth, told to arise and go devour much flesh.

Third beast - verse 6 - A leopard, with four wings of a bird, with 4 heads, and dominion (rulership) "given to it".

These 3 beasts are fairly self-explanatory...

First beast is Babylon. The symbols here match the symbol of the gold head in Daniel 2 - lion is the king of the jungle; the eagle is the king of the birds. Symbols depicting lions with eagles' wings are found in the ruins of Babylon. Eagles are also historic symbols of deity in several cultures.

One of Babylon's kings - Nebuchadnezzar - repented and converted to worship the Living God (Daniel 4); humbled, he rejected the thought of the king being a god, and reigned from then on a changed man...his wings were plucked off, and a man's heart given him.

Second beast is Medo-Persia. A forged alliance between two peoples, the Persians were the dominant power. It would walk lop-sided - one side always raised higher/greater than the other. The ribs were indicative of 3 empires it would conquer (Lydia, Babylon, and Egypt), and this empire waged many other wars of expansion against many other nations, with varying degrees of success, until it reached a wall in Greece. There, the Persian armies were routed for the first time.

Third beast is Greece. Alexander "the Great" withstood the initial Persian invasions of Greece, then took the fight back to the Persians - and fought them all the way to India. He created the Greek Empire with lightening speed and stealth - the very character of the leopard. Alexander, though, never lived to enjoy his empire - neither did his descendants, for when Alexander died, he told his generals the kingdom would go to the strongest. Dominion was given to the 4 heads - the four generals who carved up the Greek Empire to themselves.

The Fourth beast - the Beast - in verses 7-11 and 19-27, gets Daniels attention. Not only is it unlike the other beasts physically (it is not a recognizable animal normally found in the wild), its activity is not confined to the mere conquest of nations. This foreign power dares to wage war against the YHWH Elohim of Israel...something no other earthly power to this point has done.

- Exceedingly strong. Daniel sees here a kingdom whose military strength far exceeds any of that shown him to this point.

- Huge iron teeth. This immediately sets it apart from natural animals. The usage of iron here ties this beast to the iron legs found in Daniel 2; it is the Roman Empire.

- It has one head, and ten horns on that single head. The Roman empire is governed by a single Caesar. From verse 20, these 10 horns on the beast's head are ten nations springing out from this beast.

Those ten horns are the ten nations the Western Roman Empire divided into during its last 2 centuries All ten adopted some form of Christian faith as it spread through the empire. Those nations are:

The Visigoths (Spain)

The Franks (France)

The Allemani (Germany)

The Anglo-Saxons (England)

The Lombards (Northern Italy)

The Suevi (Portugal)

The Burgundians (Switzerland)

The Heruli

The Vandals (Denmark/North Africa)

The Ostrogoths (Central/Southern Itlay)

- A "Little Horn" grows out from the head, rips out 3 horns, and quickly becomes the dominant horn. These three horns were the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths - all three Arian nations were routed and destroyed in the wars within Christianity waged between the forces loyal to the Roman Catholic authority and those loyal to Arian theology. A fourth - the Visigoths of Spain - were also routed in battle. but managed to remain as a people and forsook their Arian beliefs - bowing to the authority of this Little Horn.

- this "Little Horn" grows out from among the others: it appears after the other horns are well established. It cannot be any one of the provinces where Christianity had already settled. It springs up as its own horn from within, supplanting the leaderships over these Christians, dominating them, then deciding for them what "faith" is. Disagreement with its authority invites the following action...

- this "Little Horn" takes control, and wages war against the people who worship the very same Living God - YHWH Elohim - Daniel does. It systematically persecutes the faith which Daniel is so very familiar with, and dares to exalt itself to be worship in the place of YHWH Elohim. It lasts until the very end of the age. The activity Daniel witnessed this power do to God's faithful (wage war against and prevailing over them) troubles him to the core.

But it will not be the last time Daniel sees this power in vision.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, what I have posted here about the seven heads is far from being the traditional interpretation. The key to understanding who these seven heads are is to find the point of reference for the five that have fallen. Then we may know who the one is and the one that is yet to come and the eighth which was, is not, and is again.

Really? This is very similar to those interpretations I studied when I first came into the church, and have seen portrayed in a couple of evangelists' presentations on this through the years.

From my standpoint...this is quite familar to me; I recognize it as similar to the "old school" stuff I cut my teeth on in the SDA church.

Keep posting, though - for this discussion to work, this thread needs to have every angle fully fleshed out.

For my part - I will start back in the beginning of the Beast - Daniel 7, and work my way through to Revelation 13/17.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Henry - to discuss this on that thread in World Affairs, it means pulling that thread way off topic. I am hoping the course of this discussion brings that discussion here.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Daniel would remain troubled in heart about this for the next ~2 years. Then, God visited Daniel with another vision, again involving animals.

Daniel 8:3-7, we read of 2 animals - a ram with 2 horns, one curling up higher than the other (and coming up last in sequence), and a male goat with a single horn sprouting up between his eyes.

The ram and goat symbols necessarily tie this vision to the events of the sanctuary service, as both are animals of sacrifice. However, these particular animals could never be offered to the Lord, as they are blemished.

The ram has unbalanced horns; the goat has a singular horn.

The angelic messenger gives the definitive behind who the animals represent (Daniel 8:20-22):

The Ram represents Medo-Persia. The unbalanced horns are the same feature noted in the unbalanced Bear in Daniel 7 - the Persians are dominant over the Medes, even though they are allied as one kingdom. That this ram is observed pushing to the north, west, and south relates to the command toward the Bear to "devour much flesh", while the ribs in the Bear's mouth - Lydia, Babylon, and Egypt - are north, west, and south of Medo-Persia proper, respectively.

The Male Goat from the west is Greece. This goat is full of fury and rage - indicative of the wrath formed in the hearts of the Greeks when the Persian King Xerxes unsuccessfully invaded Greece. Greece had always been a collection of small kingdoms/city-states, but the invasion by Xerxes allowed for the opportunity for Greece to be "united" (by treaty and/or by conquering force) by Macedonia as one empire over the next few decades. Alexander took this army, filled with rage, and moved against the Medo-Persian armies with unprecedented speed. The standard cavalry/foot soldier formations of the Persian forces were no match for Alexander's phalanx formation. Alexander pursued these forces wherever they were, destroying them each time they met. Finally, there were no more Medo-Persian armies left to fight - and Greece had an empire stretching from Italy to India.

The vision, though, does not stop here. Of this goat, the single horn shatters, and four notable horns grow in its place, toward the four winds of heaven (Daniel 8:8). This would mean Greece would be ruled as collection of four sections, each ruled by a successor setting up their own kingdom within the empire - one section for each of the four directions of the winds (north, west, south, and east) (Daniel 8:21,22)

In history, Alexander - having no more Medo-Persian armies to fight - had nothing more to focus the wrath of Greece upon. The Greek fury was spent. Now, there was more infighting within the empire than there was conflict without. Alexander died shortly after a brief incursion into India, dying of a sudden fever after a fit of drunkeness. His last words, though, did not give the new empire to his son to be ruled as one people/one empire; Alexander's last command was for the new empire to be ruled by the strongest.

In the ensuing civil wars, Alexander's four greatest generals carved up the empire unto themselves. Rather than stay a united empire, Greece again separated into different sections. Each general ruled a different section of the empire.

Lysimachus - Thrace (north)

Cassander - Macedonia/Greece - including a number of small Greek colonies in Italy (west)

Ptolemy - Egypt (south)

Seleucus - Asia (east)

The Greek empire indeed went to to the four winds. Never again did the Greek Empire display the power seen under Alexander, for the four kingdoms within were constantly warring between each other...just like the Greece of antiquity.

Getting back to the vision...of interest the angel directs Daniel to know these animals' horns symbolize all of these: peoples, individual kings, AND kingdoms (Daniel 8:20-22). The ram's horns represent the kings (plural) of both the Medes and the Persians (one horn for each people group - verse 20). Of the male goat, the single horn is designated as Greece's first king (Alexander the Great - verse 21), but the subsequent four horns are designated kingdoms (the four sections of Greek empire).

Hence, when considering the interpreting the symbol of a horn in prophecy, we must exercise care as to whether the context is speaking of a series of kings within a nation (ram), a single king representing a nation (goat's single horn), or kingdoms (regardless of what the ruler is called - the four horns).

Any dual application of a prophecy makes this necessarily more difficult, as the context of each application must be found within the context of the Scripture verses.

In verses 23-25, we see the Little Horn also referred to as a king...but this king is a symbol for the power arising in the future which wars against both God and His people, as no physical king can rise up to wage war against the Prince of princes - God Himself. If there must be an individual king assigned to the Little Horn - it is not a human king of any sovereign power here on earth, as the actions spoken of in the visions of Daniel 7 and 8 span millenia.

Discussing the Little Horn a bit more...

Daniel 8:9 gives us the return of the Little Horn. The phrase is "out of one of them grew a little horn". The meaning of "out of one of them" is debated as to whether "them" refers to one of the horns, or to one of the winds. Really, it makes no difference, as Cassander (the west horn) is both the direction and the lands from which this horn grows.

It is interesting that here, the vision lumps all of Rome into the Little Horn symbol. In this sweeping action, both phases of the Rome - pagan and Papal empires - are seen waging war against God's people. This vision, though, adds more.

Daniel recognizes this horn as the same one which troubled him so much before - how is it such a persecuting power arises to cause God's people so much pain? This vision, though, does nothing to dispel Daniel's inner troubling, for it shows this same Little Horn is not only waging war against God's people, it is also waging war against heaven's host, even against the Living God Himself. This is no ordinary physical kingdom, as no physical kingdom wages war against God and the heavenly host. This is a spiritual power.

Daniel is shown there is a greater controversy ongoing than the mere struggle of nations for power and glory. This controversy wars against the very idea of mankind being reconciled to God, atoned, with the life connection to the Creator restored. It wars against God, and the Hosts who worship Him.

The stars are symbols of the angels (Job 38:7), so this Horn has the backing of power which swept some of the stars from the skies, cast them to the ground, then trampled them under foot (ruled them with complete domination). Using the sanctuary symbol of the daily, this power tries to remove from the human race the very means of access God has set up for people to come to Him for atonement - therefore this power is jealous for worship, and considers people to be his own property, and desires none of the human race to either have allegiance to God, or participate in the Atonement.

This is a power that casts truth to the ground, and raises an army to oppose the daily - the true atonement of God. It prospers, prevailing against believer and unbeliever alike (verses 12; 24-25). The only thankful thing Daniel can see is that its time is temporary, and that it would end by and act of God (which corresponds to both the visions see earlier - Daniel 2 and Daniel 7). God eventually puts and end to this controversy in a manner which vindicates both God and His people - but Daniel will not be privy as to when God will do this.

This time, it makes Daniel sick. Daniel is shown God is opposed on earth by a power not only using nations to war against God's people, but also exalting itself to war against both God in heaven and the very means He has put in place for atoning the human race back to Himself...and Israel is in exile for rebelling against God - effectively joining this power behind the Little Horn!

This vision ties Daniel 8 to Revelation 12:1-12. Again, the backdrop of Revelation 12 is the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan. As Revelation 12 opens, John is shown a picture of a great Red Dragon, warring against a Woman and her seed - just as foretold in Genesis 3:15. This Dragon wars against the woman, because it warred against God in the beginning, sweeping a full 1/3 of the angelic host (stars) into his losing side of the battle. John is shown the Atonement is successful - the Dragon power cannot triumph against God. This Dragon power can only try to prevent people from realizing the Atonement was indeed successful, and no longer need live in obedience to the Dragon's tyranny.

From here, we must necessarily take hold of the 4th Beast of Daniel 7, and move to Revelation 13-18.

Blessings,

[hch]

We know that "the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth to perdition" (Rev.17:11) is the papacy. The papacy is the eighth head. ...

sky

Sky,

Are you mixing beasts with heads?

This is how I read it:

" And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns." (17:7)

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (7:8)

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth, and_are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." (17:9, 10)

The word there is added by the translators (and there are seven kings...).

The prophecy clearly states in context that the heads are KINGS. Traditionally they have been reinterpreted to be KINGDOMS, which fit the scenario of yesteryear but skews the endtime meaning.

Blessings

[hch]

Daniel would remain troubled in heart about this for the next ~2 years. Then, God visited Daniel with another vision, again involving animals.

Daniel 8:3-7, we read of 2 animals - a ram with 2 horns, one curling up higher than the other (and coming up last in sequence), and a male goat with a single horn sprouting up between his eyes.

As a secondary application that foreshadows the endtime application, this scenario is fine. But it won't work as the primary application.

1) Medo-Persia and Greece are symbolic of endtime powers

2) They are explained by a sheep (ram) and goat

3) At Christ's Advent he divides the sheep and goats

4) Gabriel is giving the interpretation that is applicable at the "last end" which is the end of the 2300-years when Medo-Persia and Greece are not in existence.

5) Medo-Persia was in power when the 2300-years commenced

6) The Spirit of Prophecy places the meaning of the visions of Daniel 8-12 in our day

7) And Daniel 8 clearly states that the 2 horns were trampled by the goat. When Medo-Persia fell to Alexander the Great, there was only one king that was trampled, not 2.

there is more but this is a starter.

Blessings

[12tribes]

In the World Affairs forum, I posted this in the thread speculating about the current Pope's replacement:

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

About the Pope counting thing...it would hold water, but Benedict XVI skips XV, and is called an "antipope" place-holder between John Paul II and the "AntiChrist Pope".

Isn't that about like saying Daniel's 70th week was "put on hold" for the Age of the Gentiles?

Well, Henry (and others) - here's your opportunity. Does the 7 Popes theory hold water? Does the placement of "antipope" placeholders mean it's a washout?

To others - are there other cracks in the eschatology?

Since speculation abounds and people are pointing to this as to how close we are...let's discuss.

Blessings,

Revelation 17 does not show 7 Popes. Revelation 17 is a union of church and state as is also mentioned in Daniel 2 with the iron and clay.

[hch]

Revelation 17 does not show 7 Popes. Revelation 17 is a union of church and state as is also mentioned in Daniel 2 with the iron and clay.

From the light given in 1844, that may have been the Present Truth of that day, but with the increase of knowledge that has followed,there is ample evidence to show that Revelation 17 does show 7 Popes. And Revelation 17 is much more than a union of church and state for it is the Apostate Protestant Church directing the papal beast that has bonded with the American Presidents from Truman to Clinton.

[Windsor]

Did it not bond with Bush or Obama? Why did it start with Truman?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Daniel would remain troubled in heart about this for the next ~2 years. Then, God visited Daniel with another vision, again involving animals.

Daniel 8:3-7, we read of 2 animals - a ram with 2 horns, one curling up higher than the other (and coming up last in sequence), and a male goat with a single horn sprouting up between his eyes.

As a secondary application that foreshadows the endtime application, this scenario is fine. But it won't work as the primary application.

1) Medo-Persia and Greece are symbolic of endtime powers

2) They are explained by a sheep (ram) and goat

3) At Christ's Advent he divides the sheep and goats

4) Gabriel is giving the interpretation that is applicable at the "last end" which is the end of the 2300-years when Medo-Persia and Greece are not in existence.

5) Medo-Persia was in power when the 2300-years commenced

6) The Spirit of Prophecy places the meaning of the visions of Daniel 8-12 in our day

7) And Daniel 8 clearly states that the 2 horns were trampled by the goat. When Medo-Persia fell to Alexander the Great, there was only one king that was trampled, not 2.

there is more but this is a starter.

Blessings

Henry, that was one of the prime reasons for my asking about the dual application point - by dual application, I mean the prophecy is as correct in application to the first as it is to the second. My point is not a "primary/secondary" thing, but that the application works 100% in each case it applies.

For decades, the historical perspective has put the interpretation of the ram and goat of Daniel 8 to be the literal empires of Medo-Persia and Greece, per the angel's exact words...quite correctly. The prophecy fits hand-in-glove...100% for the rise and fall of the ancient empires. With respect to #7 on your list, we will have to disagree to that point; Biblically, the horns are as equally applicable to the kingdoms the kings represent (Daniel 8:22) as they are to kings (verse 21) when I take those verses into the context of the whole.

When Alexander conquered Medo-Persia, he took down 1 king, yes, but in conquering one empire, Alexander conquered two peoples represented by the kings of both the Median and Persian lines. While the Persian Artexerxes held the supreme title, the emperor still had rulers over each people group in the empire as well as over the various provinces of both peoples. Alexander trampled both the Medes and the Persians underfoot, so the prophetic application does fit there.

That would the historical first application. A dual application here will not negate this, but rather will place the same symbols within this prophecy into a second application which also fits hand-in-glove, 100%, while leaving the first application 100% intact.

The net effect is not "either/or", but "also/and". Set in this framework, it (hopefully) eliminates the point of argument against the second on the premise the second negates the first. It also eliminates (hopefully) the argument that the first is somehow "incorrect" as being the reason the second is necessary.

Hopefully, this sets the stage for discussing dual application on its own merits...aka, the fit of the symbols to what is proposed.

Henry, are you proposing the 2300 morning/evening prophecy sets up a second application to the end time, after 1844, with those qualities (as a start) you have listed here?

Blessings

[hch]

Did it not bond with Bush or Obama? Why did it start with Truman?

The Jesuits claim to have put Truman in office. Thus he was the first post 1929 US President to have had a bonding experience with the papacy as well as coming from the prophetic earth and calling fire down from Heaven in the sight of men (2x's Japan WWII).

Then he was the first of the 10 crowned horns on the papal beast in Rev 13. The beast only has 10. Clinton is the 10th.

Then comes the earth beast with 2 horns: Bush II and Obama.

[Ted Oplinger]

While the Daniel 8 scenario awaits more discussion, I move to link the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 with the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 and the Beast seen in Revelation 17.

Daniel 7:7; 19,20 says, "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had ten horns....Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke into pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet. And the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three horns fell, namely, the horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows."

This fourth beast is an amalgamation - the iron teeth are a link to Rome; the bronze nails are a link to Greece (both from the parallel prophecy of Daniel 2). The Roman empire proved to be just that in its beginning - the teeth of the empire (the laws of the realm) were the iron decrees of the Roman Caesar, while the working nails (the language and culture of the conquered lands to its east) were of Greece. Greek was the language spoken universally across most of the Roman empire; the conquering legions left the cultures more or less intact in subjugating the lands to Rome's law. This Greco-Roman legacy of cultural perspective continues to impact Christendom today (known in some circles as the Western culture, or Western thought perspective).

It has a singular head with ten horns upon it, with the Little Horn springing up later.

The Little Horn proved to be a different sovereign which sprang up from among the ten horns, uprooting 3 of them while dominating the rest.

Let's line this up with the beasts in Revelation.

Revelation 13:1-3 says, "And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like a bear, and his mouth like a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of its heads as if it was mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all of the world marveled and followed the beast."

This beast does clearly link to Daniel 7...but it does not do so beast-to-beast.

The Sea Beast has seven heads. The 4th Beast has only one.

The Sea Beast's ten horns are not explicitly declared to be on the 7 heads (though it is usually illustrated so), and each horn here wears a crown. The 4th Beast's horns are explicitly stated to be on the head, and none wears a crown.

The Sea Beast's seven heads each carry a name of blasphemy. It is the 4th Beast's Little Horn which spoke pompous/blasphemous words.

While the 4th Beast was an amalgamation of Rome and Greece, the Sea Beast is quite more:

It has the body of the leopard (Greece in Daniel 7)

It has the feet of the bear (Medo-Persia)

It has the mouth of a lion (Babylon)

So the Sea Beast carries with it traits of each of these 3 ancient empires, as it goes about working its evil.

The Sea Beast's actions ( Revelation 13:5-7) clearly match up to the Little Horn's actions (Daniel 7:20-25)

Revelation 17:3 "So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns"

This beast lines up with the Sea Beast. However, its description is limited.

This beast is described as scarlet. We are not given a color for the Sea Beast.

This beast is full of blasphemous names. The Sea Beast has only the heads bearing blasphemous names.

Both beasts carry the seven heads and ten horns in common.

It would be an easy mistake to say the 4th Beast and the Sea Beast are the exact same entities. The Sea Beast, though, appears to amalgamate all of the beasts of Daniel 7 and focuses them into a correlation to the Little Horn of Daniel 7. Therein lies the link between Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.

However, if we equate the Little Horn power to the Sea Beast/Beast of Revelation 17, and again to the Papacy...who then is the identity of the harlot riding this Beast? Church riding an church seems a bit illogical...the Papacy is a church, no?

We continue.....

Blessings,

[hch]

Henry, are you proposing the 2300 morning/evening prophecy sets up a second application to the end time, after 1844, with those qualities (as a start) you have listed here?

Blessings

I must complement you Ted on making your reply clear.

And I basically agree with most of what you said in that reply. (though some parts difficult for my simple brain). And though I do not see the dual applications as truly being dual, but secondary that foreshadow the primary endtime meaning. But that can be semantics. Either view can help us get a handle on the endtime events that we need to know so that we can warn the world that Jesus is truly coming, ready or not.

God's timeline

607 Nebuchadnezzar began the siege of Jerusalem

605 BC fall of Jerusalem

537 70-years of captivity ended with Cyrus decree

520? Darius decree to restore Jerusalem

465 Artaxerxes becomes king

Why did there have to be a 3rd decree to restore Jerusalem?

Note that Jerusalem fell three times and there were 3 decrees.

And Jeremiah prophesied “I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers … first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled My land, they have filled Mine inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable things” (16:15 & 18).

From 605 to 465 BC when Artaxerxes became king was 140-years.

the 70-years were doubled.

From 465 to 457 There were 2300-literal days

"And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king. For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him." Ezra 7:8-9

Note that Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in Artaxerxes' 7th year on the first day of the 5th month.

Based on a 360-day year 2300-days is 6-years, 4-months, and 20-days.

From the fall of Jerusalem in 605 BC to the beginning of Artaxerxes' reign there was 140-years.

From the end of the 70-years doubled (140-years) in 465 until Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in the 7th year first day of the 5th month 2300-days had been fulfilled from the end of the 140-years. The Day of atonement that year literally fulfilled the 2300-days of Daniel 8:14.

Le 23:27 "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD."

Ezra offered prayers for all of Israel in the New Temple shortly after he arrived in Jerusalem. The Day of Atonement would be the logical time for that event.

When Ezekiel foretold the fall of the first Temple, he linked its destruction to the day for a year prophecy.

Since its destruction was linked to the day for a year, the day for a year links to its cleansing at the completion of 2300-years.

457-2300=1843 2300-years end first time Jesus did not come

Tarrying time identified 1843-1844

457-2300=1844 2300-years end second time Jesus did not come

1844 is "last end of indignation"

Note for the 1844 Day of atonement to be the end date for the 2300-years it had to begin on the day of atonement 2300-years earlier or it could not be 2300-years. Every time we have a birthday we are a year older. If we start the count on January 1 and have our birthday on March 5, we cannot say a year has past in that short time.

When Jesus stands and says "It is done" let the righteous be righteous still and the filthy be filthy still, the Temple will be cleansed thus there is a literal 2300-days in the endtime that we do not know when it begins.

That's how I read it

Blessings

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Henry, are you proposing the 2300 morning/evening prophecy sets up a second application to the end time, after 1844, with those qualities (as a start) you have listed here?

Blessings

I must complement you Ted on making your reply clear.

[hch]

Henry, are you proposing the 2300 morning/evening prophecy sets up a second application to the end time, after 1844, with those qualities (as a start) you have listed here?

Blessings

[hch]

4) 2300 literal days that WILL end on the Day WHEN CHRIST STANDS AND SAYS (of the Atonement) "It is done! let the righteous be righteous still and the filthy be filthy still...THEN SHALL THE SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 8:14

"And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

[Stan]

The Pope is not the king of the North.

[Windsor]

Well does Pope Francis meet the expectations of those holding the 7 pope theory?