7 Kings/Popes theory - does it hold water, or is it washed up?

[Ted Oplinger]

Well does Pope Francis meet the expectations of those holding the 7 pope theory?

Jury's out, as far as I am concerned.

According to what I know, the new name - "Francis I" - fits like a glove for that interpretation's calculation of the number of a man - 666.

It is an eighth different name since 1798 - so that fits...but I leave it to the main proponents of this theory to fill in the rest.

Blessings,

[Kevin H]

I don't believe the 7 Pope's theory. I hold to Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman Empire (which included Papal superiority) the deadly wound (this is the head with all 10 horns and the crowns are on the horns not a head, a period of independent nations some holding Jefferson/Madison views of freedom, others holding the French Revolution's views of freedom) and finally #7 the deadly wound being healed, with Revelation 18 telling us that the first to mourn at the fall of Babylon are the merchants of the earth or the corporations.

In our traditions we have made the whole beast the papacy. This is wrong. The Papacy was a major part of the 5th head, and the Papacy is the moral voice for the growing economic world state that we are seeing in the multinational cartells, council on foreign relations, Federal Reserve and the banking systems etc.

But even though I don't believe the 7 Pope's theory, and I have to admit there is much about this new Pope that I do not know, so far he seems a bit scary. He is from central/south America where the church is very powerful and very superstitious. The Jesuits were at the forefront of fighting the Reformation, althought a large number of Jesuits became so liberal and near athiestist that they came not to take faith too seriously and had become as big a pain in the neck to the Catholic Church as Fordites have been to the Seventh-day Adventists (and thus I'm not big on Jesuits hiding under every leaf, while the Catholics may have their spys and plants, I tend to see them as more faithful Catholics than what the Jesuits had grown into) However I just read in an article about the new Pope that despite being Jesuit that he is a traditionalist.

The little bit I've seen here about him has given me room for pause, including him living in this time in history where the US Presidents, whether Republican or Democrat, have come out quite united with the factors leading to the healing of the 7th head, the attacks on Jefferson/Madison freedoms. Conservatives wanting to return us pre-Americal Revolution Europe and liberals wanting to bring us to French Revolution Europe. I think I am seeing Prophecy being fulfilled.

[Johann]

Kevin, I appreciate your general view where insignificant details do not obliterate the focus.

I even agree with you that we no longer live in the era where evangelists gain a political advantage by throwing all of their accusations of evil on the papacy because there are satanic issues working elsewhere as well. The gospel message has, at times, been presented as if Commandment-keeping Christians were safely outside the realms of evil.

We still do not know the new pope. He is being presented by some of the media as more socialist than most of the previous popes. We are also told that he was close to getting elected when the last pope was elected. Does that mean that his time was not ripe then? How does that influence our way of interpreting prophecy?

[skyblue888]

The Pope is not the king of the North.

Stan, Adventists should know that first of all Jesus Christ is the true king of the north and that Lucifer through his representative here on earth is the false spiritual king of the north planting the tabernacles of his palaces between God and the human worshiper. This false king of the north received a deadly wound at the hand of Atheism in 1798 and ever since Atheism (spiritual king of the south) has been taking the ascendancy over religion in the world.

In these last days all can see that the false king of the north is taking blow after blow on account of many scandals within and for that reason alone religion is at a low ebb and atheism is florishing and slowly but surely taking the upper hand. On every side we hear that religion is less and less popular and secularism is becoming the order of the day.

But this will change. Religion will make a come back and will come against atheism with a vengeance. This will be done through the union of church and state. Religion will be enforced and those who refuse to join this so-called God movement will be labeled among the atheists and thus the true people of God will be brought into great peril. But God will intervene as He intervened in the past whenever individuality in religion was outlawed.

sky

[skyblue888]

To me this premature papal election is a political maneuver, a decoy, if you will, in an attempt to remind the whole world that the papacy, in spite of deep troubles brewing within her ranks, is not going away, that it is here to stay and to eventually rule the whole world again, as predicted in Holy Writ. Look at the way the media are covering the event. For a moment it seems like the eyes of the whole world are fastened upon this one man who claims to be the successor of Peter whom they have made the head of Christ's church on earth. But in order to do this they had to put God aside and accept the devisings of men just as the Israelites did when they put God aside in order to have a man rule over them.

But we also know that the papacy will not rule the world again without the help of Apostate Protestantism, the seventh head of Revelation 17, the one that is yet to come. Soon Apostate Protestantism will receive a kingdom and through this union of church and state (image of the papacy) will enforce the decree of Rome (Sunday worship) and this is how her wound will begin to heal and after every country on the globe shall have followed the example of Apostate Protestantism in the US, they will all agree to give their power and authority to the papacy and then her wound will be completely healed. Then the false king of the north (the eighth head of Rev.17) will rule the world again and persecution will raise its ugly head one more time but the Lord will intervene on behalf of His people who will have been declared outlaws.

sky

[Kevin H]

Although too much mixed with the traditions and the final application will be a supprise for those who see the whole beast as the Papacy, instead of seeing it as focused on the 5th head and and will be the moral voice of the 7th head, I think that Sky is on the right track.

I guess one good thing I can say is that the name Francis comes from St. Francis of Assisi. It was the Franciscans that really latched on to the writings and teachings of Joachim of Fiore which lead to the Reformation and the Franciscan version, which became focused on eschatology and the second coming (as opposed to the Augustinian version) that gradually evolved into Seventh-day Adventism.

[hch]

Well does Pope Francis meet the expectations of those holding the 7 pope theory?

I had a real problem with the election of Pope Francis I until yesterday. As I was meditating and praying, the Holy Spirit gave me peace and understanding.

Remember how the Lord has led His people in the past (cf. LS 196.2).

In 1843 and 1844, Adventists got prophecy almost right when Jesus began His work in the Sanctuary in Heaven. But it was after they missed some of the details that they were blessed with understanding.

Remember by their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves (cf. 7BC 949.6).

Understanding the beast with the 7 heads (Revelation 17)

1) Wounded-(Pope Pius VI)- Healed - (Pius XI)= 1 head

2) Pope Pius XII

3) Pope John XXIII

4) Pope Paul VI

5) Pope John-Paul I (5 are fallen)

6) Pope John-Paul II (1 IS)

7) Pope Benedict XVI (comes for short space)

The 8th looks like Francis I, but he is not of the 7 so he does not fit the prophecy as I think the prophecy is supposed to come to pass.

Prophecy was not wrong in 1843-44 and it is not wrong now (cf. 2 SM 102.2).

The students of Bible prophecy were wrong back then and now (SpTEd 236.2; DA 459.1).

Thus to correct our understanding to align with the prophecy as they did then, we must do now (2SP 371.1).

I studied the entire book of Revelation every day and sometimes several times a day, but could not put it together.

Then yesterday morning (3/15/13) while meditating on Pope Francis I, I asked the Lord, "If I am to study to show my self approved that I need not to be ashamed, I have studied Revelation and don't understand Pope Francis, so what else am I to study?"

The Holy Spirit answered: "Daniel."

I thought a moment. "I don't understand."

Remember Revelation is an explanation of Daniel. (The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. {7BC 949.6} )

Hmmm Revelation 17 is explaining something in Daniel and it flows into " Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" (18:2).

Daniel 5 talks about the fall of Babylon.

Cyrus (a type of Christ toppled it)

There were 2 kings ruling in Babylon when it fell

Three if you count Daniel who was made 3rd ruler moments before it fell.

Papacy is Spiritual Babylon

Christ is coming to topple it

There are now 2 popes in Babylon (Benedict XVI Emeritus & Francis I) as it is ready to fall

There will be 3 when Satan appears as John-Paul II (one of the 7 is the 8th) moments before Christ Returns

Revelation 17-18 are explaining what led up to Revelation 16.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon [sATAN PERSONATING JOHN-PAUL II], and out of the mouth of the beast [POPE FRANCIS I], and out of the mouth of the false prophet [bENEDICT XVI]. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth [AMERICAN PRESIDENT] and of the whole world [REMAINING HEADS OF STATE], to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty" (16:13-14)

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (I Corinthians 13:9-10)

Consider Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

What is continue?

Strong lists several meanings.

Note:

"1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different"

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must remain as one, not to become another or different FOR a short space."

1) Wounded-(Pope Pius VI)- Healed - (Pius XI)= 1 head

2) Pope Pius XII

3) Pope John XXIII

4) Pope Paul VI

5) Pope John-Paul I (5 are fallen)

6) Pope John-Paul II (1 IS)

7) Pope Benedict XVI (is to remain as one, not to become another or different for short space)

8) Pope Francis I (Benedict XVI & Satan as John-Paul II)=8th

"And the beast that was [sATAN PERSONATING JOHN-PAUL II], and is not [bENEDICT XVI EMERITUS], AND he [FRANCIS I] ARE the eighth, and ARE of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Revelation 17:11).

It's a counterfeit (false) trinity.

I have changed my understanding now that Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves with the aide of the Holy Spirit. I continue to study and would appreciate your feedback. Truth withstands scrutiny. And there is safety in many godly counselors.

[Johann]

To me this premature papal election is a political maneuver, a decoy, if you will, in an attempt to remind the whole world that the papacy, in spite of deep troubles brewing within her ranks, is not going away, that it is here to stay and to eventually rule the whole world again, as predicted in Holy Writ. Look at the way the media are covering the event. For a moment it seems like the eyes of the whole world are fastened upon this one man who claims to be the successor of Peter whom they have made the head of Christ's church on earth. But in order to do this they had to put God aside and accept the devisings of men just as the Israelites did when they put God aside in order to have a man rule over them.

But we also know that the papacy will not rule the world again without the help of Apostate Protestantism, the seventh head of Revelation 17, the one that is yet to come. Soon Apostate Protestantism will receive a kingdom and through this union of church and state (image of the papacy) will enforce the decree of Rome (Sunday worship) and this is how her wound will begin to heal and after every country on the globe shall have followed the example of Apostate Protestantism in the US, they will all agree to give their power and authority to the papacy and then her wound will be completely healed. Then the false king of the north (the eighth head of Rev.17) will rule the world again and persecution will raise its ugly head one more time but the Lord will intervene on behalf of His people who will have been declared outlaws.

sky

Quite important. It so happens that the country where I now live (Iceland) is in the middle of a debate and discussions if we should join the European Union or not. Fortunately there is still a majority against it, but there are mighty powers attempting to propel us in that direction. We are clearly in a religious upheaval where things are shaping up for the final conflict. Some of the details are coming as a surprise.

It is time for prayer and submission - and study. I fear that some of the saintliest among us might lead us astray. We are immune to attacks by the enemy if he appears as he is.

[Ted Oplinger]

Bumping back to the top - to allow Henry to keep developing his interpretation.

Blessings,

[Paula]

HCH, that is an interesting theory. I think time will show if you are right. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have 2 popes right now. Also, did you see that Today, one of the leading Evangelical Pastors, Rob Bell, came out in support of Gay Marriage?? Talk about Apostate Protestantism!! We are living in amazing times!

[hch]

HCH, that is an interesting theory. I think time will show if you are right. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have 2 popes right now. Also, did you see that Today, one of the leading Evangelical Pastors, Rob Bell, came out in support of Gay Marriage?? Talk about Apostate Protestantism!! We are living in amazing times!

Paula,

Babylon is fallen, fallen - come out of her My people!

It has been alleged that before Benedict was pope, he was aware that priests were shuffled around while they preyed on boys. Then when he became pope, he refused to let priests marry and thus while he claimed to uphold marriage and the traditional family, he knew that many of his underlings were tearing traditional families apart.

[skyblue888]

That was the message of Revelation 14 in the spring of 1844 but the message of Rev.18:1-5 that Babylon the Great is fallen is not yet present truth and won't be until her sins have reached unto heaven. We have been clearly told when this will be.

sky

[hch]

That was the message of Revelation 14 in the spring of 1844 but the message of Rev.18:1-5 that Babylon the Great is fallen is not yet present truth and won't be until her sins have reached unto heaven. We have been clearly told when this will be.

sky

Sky,

The three Angel's Messages of Revelation 14 are repeated in Revelation 18. But it is not a rehashing of the 22 October 1844 judgment hour of the dead, or the fact that the papacy that fell in 1798 was still in a fallen condition 22 October 1844.

The repeating of the messages is that the Judgment of the living has ended 14 February 2013. And Babylon is fallen is fallen: the papacy that is rocked by its sex scandals and that has had its pope resign. And the Apostate Protestant Churches are now in a FALLEN state as evidenced by their setting up the Abomination of Desolation on 20 September 2001 and the fact that though the fornication of the papacy is front page news, her daughters are NOT FLEEING HER, they are embracing her and her sins. Protestant America is legalizing same sex marriage in defiance of the word of God that states that in the beginning He made them male and female. GAY MARRIAGE is an exaltation of man's opinions over a thus saith the Lord.

Babylon is fallen (papacy), is fallen (Apostate Protestantism) COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE. The message is now to flee every church that is Babylon.

Babylon's sins have reached heaven, I don't know what you are waiting for. The first and second angel's messages are now repeating and the third is not far off.

Blessings

Henry

[skyblue888]

Have you never read in the Testimonies that the sins of Babylon will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void in the land, when Sunday worship shall be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. Only then will the message of Rev.18:1-5 be present truth. Then the loud cry to the world will begin to be proclaimed, not before.

I can give you the quotes if you want.

sky

[hch]

Have you never read in the Testimonies that the sins of Babylon will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void in the land, when Sunday worship shall be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. Only then will the message of Rev.18:1-5 be present truth. Then the loud cry to the world will begin to be proclaimed, not before.

I can give you the quotes if you want.

sky

Sky,

If it is not too much trouble, please do look up some of the particular quotes that you are thinking of.

The sins of Babylon's fornication have reached to Heaven. As James says, break one commandment and you are guilty of all.

So I would be interested to read that God is delaying Judgment for other sins to accumulate.

Blessings

[skyblue888]

Sky,

If it is not too much trouble, please do look up some of the particular quotes that you are thinking of.

The sins of Babylon's fornication have reached to Heaven. As James says, break one commandment and you are guilty of all.

So I would be interested to read that God is delaying Judgment for other sins to accumulate.

Blessings

hch

______________

"A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in the land." E.G.White, Review & Herald, Dec.18,1888.

"The sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void, when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land." E.G. White, Review & Herald, Nov.5,1899.

These two statements make it crystal clear as to when the sins of Babylon shall have reached unto heaven. It will be when the law of God is made void, when Sunday shall be enforced. Then and then only will the law of God, to all

intents and purposes, be made void in the land. And "this national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." Review & Herald, Dec.18,1888.

Then the message of Revelation 18:1-5 will be present truth, not before. Then the loud cry to the world will begin, not before.

This is just another way of saying that at that time this nation will have disconnected herself FULLY from righteousness:

"By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself FULLY from righteousness." Testimonies, Vol.5,451.

To disconnect one's self fully from righteousness is to have one's sins reached unto heaven.

This decree has not yet been passed. When the decree is passed then and then only will the loud cry be proclaimed by God's chosen vessels.

These statements above are very clear. They cannot be misconstrued or controverted.

No one needs be deceived.

The message of Revelation 18:1-5 is still future.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky, King of the North is Turkey, setting up the Caliphate in Israel, verse 45. Uriah had it right. It's a good idea to keep the sequence and timing of events in their proper place before jumping to the last chapter of a good book.

Obviously Sunday law, Romanish power and all that will come into play. As will Armegeddon, seven last plagues, etc.

Verse 45 is simply a "way mark", letting us know what is about to unfold. When Dan 11:45 is fulfilled, I will be selling my house and making serious last minute preparation for the rapidly approaching storm. It's the last verse of prophecy to be fulfilled, the last waymark. The storm, relentless in it's fury, will surely follow...

[hch]

That was the message of Revelation 14 in the spring of 1844 but the message of Rev.18:1-5 that Babylon the Great is fallen is not yet present truth and won't be until her sins have reached unto heaven. We have been clearly told when this will be.sky

[hch]

That was the message of Revelation 14 in the spring of 1844 but the message of Rev.18:1-5 that Babylon the Great is fallen is not yet present truth and won't be until her sins have reached unto heaven. We have been clearly told when this will be.

sky