Why?

[Igakusei]

Igakusei, I'm sorry to hear that you had an intellectual prison enforced around you. I've always been one to encourage my children to think for themselves and to learn of other religions and analyze the religion they've been brought up in. Not many of my church friends did the same, however--so it's not surprising that you grew up in that vein.

Thanks. That's something that really gets me, now. If Adventism really was the remnant church it claims to be and if Matthew 7:7-8 was as true as many posters here claim it to be, then people like me simply wouldn't exist and Christian children would never need to be sheltered as I was and taught never to doubt. H.P. Lovecraft says it more eloquently than I can:

So an unbending quest for truth is exactly what I strive for now, and that's what I plan on teaching my own children:

[M. T. Cross]

Ig, I am religious and that Lovecraft quote is exactly what I insist that my children do. If they ask me what I think about something I tell them my thoughts. Their mother does the same (and we do not share a whole lot of thoughts on spirituality). We explain to them that these are simply our views and encourage them to seek their own answers. I have never once told any of my kids that what I believe is the absolute truth and have never insisted that they believe the same as me.-

[M. T. Cross]

Cricket I would like to point something out about my reasons for being here.

A poster recently posted asking me how many people I had converted to paganism or have convinced to leave Christianity in my time here.

I responded that I would like to see one single post where I have ever attempted to do either.

One response I received was to say "That's rarely done straightforwardly."

So let me be clear.

I have zero desire to take anyone from their chosen path. Ya'll want to be Adventists, thats fine with me. I really truly don't care. I don't get or understand how you find truth in it, but thats not for me to decide for you. I don't care to convince Ig, Card or fcool that it is possible that their may be deities. That is up to them to decide for themselves. They seem to be fairly fine upstanding people without it so again its not for me to decide that they should think differently.

As for converting anyone to paganism. Well that would be impossible. Its not a religion. Its an umbrella term that covers a huge variety of belief systems and practices. If someone is interested in my experiences in my religion, I am happy to talk about it. If they are interested in learning more I will direct them to where they can. One thing that is pretty across the board in the pagan community (with the exception of some really fluffy Wiccans) is that the idea of preaching a set belief system as "the truth" or trying to covert someone to your way of thinking is hugely bad etiquette.

I am here because I want to understand some things, I stay here because I enjoy the conversations. I also think that the majority of Christians could use a little education about the facts of other belief systems. Not to convert anyone or take them away from where they have found their peace.

[phkrause]

Cricket I would like to point something out about my reasons for being here.

A poster recently posted asking me how many people I had converted to paganism or have convinced to leave Christianity in my time here.

I responded that I would like to see one single post where I have ever attempted to do either.

One response I received was to say "That's rarely done straightforwardly."

So let me be clear.

I have zero desire to take anyone from their chosen path. Ya'll want to be Adventists, thats fine with me. I really truly don't care. I don't get or understand how you find truth in it, but thats not for me to decide for you. I don't care to convince Ig, Card or fcool that it is possible that their may be deities. That is up to them to decide for themselves. They seem to be fairly fine upstanding people without it so again its not for me to decide that they should think differently.

As for converting anyone to paganism. Well that would be impossible. Its not a religion. Its an umbrella term that covers a huge variety of belief systems and practices. If someone is interested in my experiences in my religion, I am happy to talk about it. If they are interested in learning more I will direct them to where they can. One thing that is pretty across the board in the pagan community (with the exception of some really fluffy Wiccans) is that the idea of preaching a set belief system as "the truth" or trying to covert someone to your way of thinking is hugely bad etiquette.

I am here because I want to understand some things, I stay here because I enjoy the conversations. I also think that the majority of Christians could use a little education about the facts of other belief systems. Not to convert anyone or take them away from where they have found their peace.

I for one am glad that your here. I have to say that in all my years on C/A, that I don't or can't think of one person that has changed there mind, opinion, etc., on any issue. I also don't believe that that is something anyone can do anyway. Its, if you are an Adventist, the HS job. Not sure what other religions have to say about that. I know many that have converted to Judaism, even though they don't go out and try to get anyone to join.

[cricket]

Many here in this thread seem to be of one accord! I think that's wonderful. Searching for truth, sharing with others, and encouraging others to THINK! We may even reason together! Fabulous.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I have zero desire to take anyone from their chosen path. Ya'll want to be Adventists, thats fine with me. I really truly don't care. I don't get or understand how you find truth in it, but thats not for me to decide for you. I don't care to convince Ig, Card or fcool that it is possible that their may be deities. That is up to them to decide for themselves. They seem to be fairly fine upstanding people without it so again its not for me to decide that they should think differently.

I agree MT. You and I have had some fairly candid conversations; and never once have you "judged" my experience vs. yours. You are indeed one of the reasons I come back here so often. I LOVE the way you think about things!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I summed C/A up to my wife like this. Its like being in a beautiful meadow with some people enjoying the sun, watching other people chase butterflies thinking they are fairies, while running through the middle is a legion of Inquisition soldiers killing white bunnies.

I'm guessing you don't believe this.

" Love....is ever ready to believe the best of every person,...." 1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

I definitely find some of myself in that picture, too. I was taught to enclose myself in an intellectual prison and not "set foot on the Devil's ground," which IMO is a philosophically indefensible position to take, depending as it does on hope that you were lucky enough to be born to a family who knew all the answers. I now believe that knowledge should not be feared, and that a constant effort to objectively evaluate both sides of every controversy (i.e. letting both sides speak for themselves and making an effort to understand first before making a judgement) is a substantially more reliable way to acquire beliefs that accurately reflect reality.

Sheltered as I was from any ideas that hadn't first been filtered through the SDA bureaucracy, I wish that someone like the present-day me would have taken younger me under their wing.

Sounds like a story I've heard elsewhere.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."

Genesis 3:6 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So an unbending quest for truth is exactly what I strive for now, and that's what I plan on teaching my own children:

I'm glad to hear you believe there is something or Someone with a greater wisdom than ourselves. We've had enough time to prove how much damage we can do on our own.

"Jesus *said to him, “I am....the truth,"

John 14:7 NASB

God cares!

[debbym]

Quote:

I could be wrong, but I think most or all of the atheists who post here are ex-SDA. So I guess that's a bit different from just random atheists showing up.

i was washed out on the church for over a decade, now i am in a kind of alternative sda church. we have a core of wonderful families and kids, and we have a mission to the local community in need. we have no salaried minister, we are lay led, and each feels the responsibility to serve. we believe in the priesthood of all believers in a real way. we are SDA, and we are not an offshoot, we do not feed on the failures of anyone.

we are not existing to maintain the sda culture. which is very powerful.

there are so many ways people get distracted from experiencing Christ, and being born again every day to an exciting adventure in what God has planned each new day.

God loves everyone in this world the same, and he longs to bless and lift and encourage and renew every person with new life and joy, hope, wisdom and peace.

God can meet the toughest situation and change it, because he has all authority and power in heaven and earth.

after i saw and experienced the back side of the embroidery in this world, and in the Adventist church, and in myself i was one hurtin' pup. I found it was true, the enemy comes to kill steal and destroy, but Christ came that we might have life and have life more abundantly.

i can understand having faith ripped out of your grasp, and i can see becoming an atheist and former sda atheist in addition. my own faith is not enough to get me through, i need the transplant of the faith Of Christ.

I was sifted as wheat, but Christ prayed for me that my faith fail not. I failed completely but he will not fail anyone. He will come through for everyone, in surprising ways.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

I summed C/A up to my wife like this. Its like being in a beautiful meadow with some people enjoying the sun, watching other people chase butterflies thinking they are fairies, while running through the middle is a legion of Inquisition soldiers killing white bunnies.

I'm guessing you don't believe this.

" Love....is ever ready to believe the best of every person,...." 1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

God cares!

Not sure what the verse has to do with what you quoted, but as far as your guess....... you could not be more wrong.

I have long held the belief that every single person is essentially good. Doing things that are harmful and destructive is a learned behaviour.

[Igakusei]

Quote:

So an unbending quest for truth is exactly what I strive for now, and that's what I plan on teaching my own children:

I'm glad to hear you believe there is something or Someone with a greater wisdom than ourselves. We've had enough time to prove how much damage we can do on our own.

"Jesus *said to him, “I am....the truth,"

John 14:7 NASB

I'm not sure what the point in even replying to you is if all you're going to do is post sarcastic nonsense like this.

[Igakusei]

Sounds like a story I've heard elsewhere.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."

Genesis 3:6 NASB

Yes, a story.

And not a very good one, either. If Genesis 3 and the way you interpret it isn't evidence that your religion is based in ignorance, I don't know what is.

Dangit Eve, why did you have to be so… so… curious!. Why couldn't you just accept what you were told at face value without going off and thinking for yourself!

[LifeHiscost]

Yes I guess when one thinks we have no greater Author to our beginnings, it would be more healthy to inquire of the primordial soup or the apes for our next step.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

we are not existing to maintain the sda culture. which is very powerful.

And a very powerful post, May I suggest that sola scriptura, when adhered to by the Adventist, is a genuine Christian platform that will weather the storms we will be facing, both now and increasing as the future unfolds before our very eyes.

Quote:

my own faith is not enough to get me through, i need the transplant of the faith Of Christ.

Truer words could never be spoken. I admire your calm tenacity for the sake of others and recognize it as a special gift of the Holy Spirit. Your equanimity is also a gift much to be desired.

"My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."Galatians 2:20 NLT

God cares!

[Igakusei]

Yes I guess when one thinks we have no greater Author to our beginnings, it would be more healthy to inquire of the primordial soup or the apes for our next step.

God cares!

You're going about this backwards. I don't think religious special creation stories are myths because I decided that I didn't like the idea of a greater author to our beginnings, I decided that we weren't specially created because the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

[M. T. Cross]

Yes I guess when one thinks we have no greater Author to our beginnings, it would be more healthy to inquire of the primordial soup or the apes for our next step.

God cares!

Ya know LHC.......... I would LOVE nothing more than to believe in a literal creation. Whether it be the Christian one, the Nordic one, or any number of others. It would be the most wonderful thing, full of magic and beauty. It appeals to me in an amazing way, because, well..... I love magic and beauty.

But the evidence against it is too overwhelming. There is just to much proof that we evolved.

Now I know that creationists always come back with the fact that science can not find the root cause of LIFE. What started it all, what started evolution, what made that big bang go BOOM. I agree, I think there is something behind it. I think it is a science that none of us can understand at this point. There is an energy to everything, a life force that we have not really put a finger on yet. For lack of better terms I call it the Divine, because it is something as yet unfathomable. But I can not see it as some great omnipotent being sitting on a throne in judgement of us all.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I think it is a science that none of us can understand at this point.

As a race (human that is) you are actually right. Even God (Jesus) admits it.

"“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord."Isaiah 55:8 NASB

That's why I've decided to quit figuring Him out and just let Him figure me out. It just seems to me omnipotence has a much wider variety of help and acknowledged power for benefit.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I can not see it as some great omnipotent being sitting on a throne in judgement of us all.

You might be surprised at the advantages. For one thing every one of us human beings are born with our names written in the Lambs book of life and the only one's that ever have them removed are those who determine by their continuing behavior, they have no desire to be with Him in the eternity He created.

In the Jewish economy, God's chosen people, the Sovereign God, Jehovah by name, was always for the person who was brought into judgment. Therefore if you did wrong, He advocated for the miscreant, and as long as they were willing to admit their wrong and depend on Him to solve their problems, it was you, our Father God, and our Advocate Jesus, against all the claims of the devil and whoever sided with him. Under such conditions the only reason for losing any case was if the accused refused to change sides to yoke him/herself again to the rightful sovereign Creator.

And that basically is why God is misrepresented, through the instigation of the prince of darkness. If he can get a person to believe that God is unfair, unworthy, or incapable enough for one to turn away from unanswered doubt about His character, the dragon has gained one of God's children, and in consequence pained beyond remedy the heart of God, unless a person reveals sorrow not to be repented.

"For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death."

2 Corinthians 7:10 NLT

God cares!

[Igakusei]

For some of us, the "advantages" of any particular belief matter less than the reasonable likelihood of it actually being true.

[LifeHiscost]

For some of us, the "advantages" of any particular belief matter less than the reasonable likelihood of it actually being true.

There were approximately (open to correction of the number) 600 forecasts about the life of Jesus before He ever came to this earth the first time, accurate down to the fine detail. If there were that many correct about His first coming, the odds of even 8 coming true being 10 to the 23rd power, I see no reason to doubt the ones forecasting His return.

God Cares!

[M. T. Cross]

How many of those were from non Jewish people?

[Igakusei]

...the odds of even 8 coming true being 10 to the 23rd power, I see no reason to doubt the ones forecasting His return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out

Also: http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/messianic.html

[whatisthis]

Ya know this is like the third of fourth time I have seen this brought up in the last month.

Maybe I should learn to take a hint.

NO! I say NOnonono! You are here because you care, that's why!

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Ya know this is like the third of fourth time I have seen this brought up in the last month.

Maybe I should learn to take a hint.

NO! I say NOnonono! You are here because you care, that's why!

Thanks, I was having a pretty bad day when I posted that. But I appreciate you wanting me to stay