Preventing rapists...

[M. T. Cross]

Jim Dobson has known this for decades,

You seem to hold James Dobson in high regard. That explains a lot, and it makes it clear that when it comes to matters of religion and sexuality, you and I will never ever agree on things. But at least now I understand where you come from.

[olger]

Try again. I simply cited Dobson along with several other individuals who work with people.

How do you feel about James Wilder?

rejoice always,

G

[debbym]

Quote:

"Appropriate penalty for rape is castration."

I like this ! Just make sure that they are guilty and ...boom.

unfortunately this has been proven to not work. They will just find another object to use for the similar purpose. And they have.

[debbym]

Quote:

Male domination. Male leadership is both Biblical and separate from what you are referring to as "male domination." It's hard to have a logical dialogue when these unwarranted assumptions keep getting in the way. The problem with feminism (and those who buy into feminist ideology) is they make no distinction between male domination and male headship. I agree that domination is not a good thing. Headship is an honorable thing.

men and women have been divvying up roles in society for eon's. their have been plenty of matriarchal societies, and no man lost his manhood in them, and boy's did not turn into girls in these systems.

Quote:

Matriarchal women are managers and administrators, who organise the economy not according to the profit principle, where an individual or a small group of people benefits; rather, the motivation behind their action is motherliness. The profit principle is an ego-centred principle, where individuals or a small minority take advantage of the majority of people. The principle of motherliness is the opposite, where altruism reigns and the well being of all is at the centre. It is at the same time a spiritual principle, which humans take from nature. Mother Nature cares for all beings, however different they may be. The same applies for the principle of motherliness: a good mother cares for all her children in spite of their diversity. For example with the Mosuo, the woman who is elected to be the clan mother from among her sisters, is the one who most clearly displays the attitude of care for the other clan members.

[M. T. Cross]

Try again. I simply cited Dobson along with several other individuals who work with people.

How do you feel about James Wilder?

rejoice always,

G

The way you cited him made me think you held him in a high regard. I have no idea who James Wilder is.

[olger]

men and women have been divvying up roles in society for eon's. their have been plenty of matriarchal societies, and no man lost his manhood in them, and boy's did not turn into girls in these systems.

Come work with people in Sweden like we have.

Blessings,

G

[OzarkWoman]

Quote:

If you're going to go around mutilating and cutting off people's body parts--you'd better be d@#%ed sure they are guilty.

You're right cricket - I took that last statement too far. I apologize.

I just think rape is about the mose heinous crime there is. I know several people who were in one way or another sexually abused. It changes them forever - and not very often for the better.

I was raped when I was 16 by my father and ended up having his child. It was not fun, nor did I ever forget it. I was kidnapped and raped and tortued when we lived in NM and I have gone on with my life, but I have to say that if it had not been for being brought into Jesus, it would not have happened.

[JoeMo]

Wow, OW, My heart goes out to you. What a nightmare! I remember reading several years ago about a kidnap/rape in TorC, NM. That wasn't you, was it?

Father God, Please look upon your daughter OW; and give her peace over her past. Thank you for revealing Yourself to her and bringing her into Your Kingdom. Also thank you for making her a "toughie" and bringng her insights and experiences to CA. Bless her real good, Father!

In Jesus name, Amen!

[OzarkWoman]

Wow, OW, My heart goes out to you. What a nightmare! I remember reading several years ago about a kidnap/rape in TorC, NM. That wasn't you, was it?

Father God, Please look upon your daughter OW; and give her peace over her past. Thank you for revealing Yourself to her and bringing her into Your Kingdom. Also thank you for making her a "toughie" and bringng her insights and experiences to CA. Bless her real good, Father!

In Jesus name, Amen!

Yes, it was me, and others also. The authorities suspected h=the guy of murdering over 30 women but hadn't found the bodies, just some. I, along with a couple of other women, went to court for the DA. The guy died of a heart attack before he was able to spend all of his time he got convicted of.

Thank you for the blessing Joe.

You can read more of my testimony here, if you want:

Testimony

[Tom Wetmore]

* * *

If a boy has no father in his life, then he must learn from other men how to be a man. Each of us guys need five older men we can learn positive things from. If our father is one of those - GREAT. If not, we must learn from other men.

* * *

I also will state again that a boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. He must learn from another man or men. Jim Dobson has known this for decades, along with Mark Gungor, James Wilder, Anne Moir, Bob Mueller, Laura Schlessinger, Elizabeth Elliott Nancy Lee DeMoss, and a thousand others.

There are many good things we can learn from our mothers, as Paul said to Timothy, and how to be a man isn't one of them. That may be why Paul took Timothy under his wing - I like to think so.

Ger, aside from being an over-simplistic POV on the matter at hand, this is simply adding further insult to women.

Is a mother incapable of teaching her son to show respect for others, to be a gentlemen with women? Is a mother unable to train her son to show self-restraint and that force and aggression are not positive interpersonal skills? Is a mother unable to teach her son sexual virtues?

Are you also suggesting that a single father of girls cannot teach them to be ladies and what it means to be a virtuous woman?

[Tom Wetmore]

That may be true, Tom.

Single-mother households are not helping the situation either! A man cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. He must learn from a man.

A man is called to live by principle, not emotion.

So we have young men who have been 'trained' by lack of a father to act on emotion, and we combine that with testosterone. That makes a deadly combination.

So I am in agreement that training is needed, and I am calling for traditional homes and marriages as the best proving ground for that training.

Again an insult to women...

So what you are saying is that mothers cannot teach their sons ( or their daughters apparently) to "live by principle"?

As for men, it is not the lack of emotion that solves the problem. There is a more serious problem of men that have not been taught to properly deal with and express their emotions, particularly the ones fueled by testosterone.

Here is a key emotion that would go a very long way toward equipping men to show respect and self control around women - empathy. And women are much better at empathy than men. So it seems that a mother could do a far better job of instilling a sense of empathy in her sons than a father could.

[JoeMo]

As

Quote:

for men, it is not the lack of emotion that solves the problem. There is a more serious problem of men that have not been taught to properly deal with and express their emotions, particularly the ones fueled by testosterone.

You hit the nail on the head, Tom. My personal experience:

Sometimes my wife will ask me "what's wrong?" I'll tell her "Nothing " because I can't verbalize what I'm feeling at the moment. She knows better; and takes it as an affront that I'm not communicating. It's not that I'm not communicating; I just don't have the words to express what I want to communicate ... It's complicated.

[CoAspen]

Add another insult to women and men...emotions are inferred as a bad thing unless they are only mixed with progesterone!! Where is this trash taught and who buys into it? It certainly explains alot about some of the comments about anything to do with women on these forums. 5 men to make a man! Talk about arrogance and pride! Men must be rather weak, it takes a whole cast and crew to put them together!

By the way, I learned how to treat others from my mother and I'm proud of her!!!! Her example and treatment of those around her were the best observational lessons. She lived her beliefs!!!

[CoAspen]

Men have the same emotional feelings as women, they have just been taught by other men to suppress them. Maybe 1 or more of the 5!!!!!

[olger]

There are many good things we can learn from our mothers, as Paul said to Timothy, and how to be a man isn't one of them.

It's true !!

rejoice always,

G

[olger]

Add another insult to women and men...emotions are inferred as a bad thing unless they are only mixed with progesterone!! Where is this trash taught and who buys into it? It certainly explains alot about some of the comments about anything to do with women on these forums. 5 men to make a man! Talk about arrogance and pride! Men must be rather weak, it takes a whole cast and crew to put them together!

By the way, I learned how to treat others from my mother and I'm proud of her!!!! Her example and treatment of those around her were the best observational lessons. She lived her beliefs!!!

Coasp. Nothing wrong with emotions until we begin living an emotive life. We must as Christians live by principle. Love for instance, is a principle. Good one too!

It sounds like you had a good mom. Glad for that. What do you appreciate about your Dad?

Men are different from women in how they are wired - you probably know that. Not wrong, just different. If I'm not mistaken, you just said on another post that people need to listen to others to stretch their preconceptions. Is this your example of how that works? "Add another insult to women and men...emotions are inferred as a bad thing unless they are only mixed with progesterone!! Where is this trash taught and who buys into it? It certainly explains alot about some of the comments about anything to do with women on these forums. 5 men to make a man!"

I have a good mother too, and have learned good things from her - however she is utterly unable to teach or emulate manhood. That is a good thing, revealing the wisdom and purposes of the Creator. Being male comes automatically. Manhood doesn't. Each of us guys need older Godly men that we can learn from. That's a good thing. I have had several such male mentors in my life and am grateful for their example. My dad was one of them - a legend.

More than anything we need to be connected to our Heavenly Father.

Rejoice always,

G

(PS. Rape is still wrong) :^)

[olger]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Wow, OW, My heart goes out to you. What a nightmare! I remember reading several years ago about a kidnap/rape in TorC, NM. That wasn't you, was it?

Father God, Please look upon your daughter OW; and give her peace over her past. Thank you for revealing Yourself to her and bringing her into Your Kingdom. Also thank you for making her a "toughie" and bringng her insights and experiences to CA. Bless her real good, Father!

In Jesus name, Amen!

Yes, it was me, and others also. The authorities suspected h=the guy of murdering over 30 women but hadn't found the bodies, just some. I, along with a couple of other women, went to court for the DA. The guy died of a heart attack before he was able to spend all of his time he got convicted of.

Thank you for the blessing Joe.

You can read more of my testimony here, if you want:

Testimony

As a man, this story evokes wrath and a protective instinct in me. As a believer, I am thrilled to see how the Lord has brought beauty out of this trial. Thanks for sharing it!

G

[Tom Wetmore]

As a man, this story evokes wrath and a protective instinct in me. As a believer, I am thrilled to see how the Lord has brought beauty out of this trial. Thanks for sharing it!

G

How very emotional of you. No really. Every point you make is expressed with much emotiveness.

[olger]

Men protecting women is a Bible principle.

Thanks,

G

[Tom Wetmore]

I think you know that is not what I was referring to.

In your three short sentences I can easily identify 4 active expressions of emotion by you. What I am challenging is for you to consider that what you say and what you do seem to be different. You have been advocating that men live according to principle, not emotion, and that women do the opposite.

But here you have reacted to OzarkWoman's testimony acknowledging your personal response as "wrath" (anger for those of us in the 21st Century) - an emotional reaction. Then you stated that you were "thrilled" - also an emotional response. Then you expressed gratitude, which hopefully is beyond mere principled courtesy and is sincerely felt - emotion again. That last point is punctuated by an "exclamation" mark which denotes a degree of excitation, which also has an emotional connotation.

I am by no means saying anything is wrong with your reaction. It was an appropriate and fitting reaction. But it is undeniably laced with emotion.

If I am understanding what you have been obliquely suggesting as a key difference between men and women regarding emotions is that real men control their emotions and act in a controlled and principled way. This seems an appropriate suggestion in context of this topic. But where you go off the rails, IMHO, is emphatically saying that women cannot control their emotions and are incapable of acting in a controlled and principled way. Your repeated statements also seems to imply that men are more likely than not, if not universally, to act in a controlled manner out of principle and not emotion. Really!?!? On what planet would that be? Vulcan?

[Tom Wetmore]

Nothing wrong with emotions until we begin living an emotive life. We must as Christians live by principle. Love for instance, is a principle. Good one too!

That love is a principle is a thought terminating cliche. Nobody every seems to question it. The implication is that love (usually spun as love in a Christian context) is not an emotion, because emotions are not good. So in describing God as love, it seems a bit sacrilegious to suggest he would have emotions, unless you can redefine love as being something without emotion. Aha! Love is a principle. OK, let's move on now to something else to avoid this messy emotional stuff of love.

Let me tell you, true love is first and foremost an emotional feeling of strong affection and personal attachment. If it is not, it would seem rather strange to tell my wife that I love her, but feel nothing toward her. If love is just a principle, then as a matter of principle all I need to do is treat her kindly, help her as much as I can, respect her and admire her positive attributes. No need to feel anything.

Sure, there are valuable and virtuous principles that flow from a spirit (also an emotive attribute) of love. But love is at its pure essence a positive emotion. You cannot separate the emotion from love and still have love.

Originally Posted By: olger

I have a good mother too, and have learned good things from her - however she is utterly unable to teach or emulate manhood. That is a good thing, revealing the wisdom and purposes of the Creator. Being male comes automatically. Manhood doesn't...

You keep saying it. But what are you really talking about? What is manhood? What exactly is it that distinguishes merely being a human male and being a man?

And do explain exactly why a mother cannot teach her son what that means.

And also let us know if you think a father is unable to teach his daughter how and what it means to be a lady.

Taking your idea to its logical conclusion, are you suggestion that we should have only men teach our boys in school? And the girls only be taught by women?

[olger]

Tom, nice list of exaggerations and assumptions, with a few good points thrown in. Thanks. If you are serious about discussing the differences between a male and a man, feel free to shoot me an email at gcwagoner@earthlink.net

If you're uncomfortable with that, I'll understand.

Looking forward to a rich dialogue I remain

In Him,

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

No need to carry on this as a private discussion. If this is something of vital concern for Christian fathers to know, just post it all right here where you started it.

[cricket]

That love is a principle is a thought terminating cliche. Nobody every seems to question it. The implication is that love (usually spun as love in a Christian context) is not an emotion, because emotions are not good. So in describing God as love, it seems a bit sacrilegious to suggest he would have emotions, unless you can redefine love as being something without emotion. Aha! Love is a principle. OK, let's move on now to something else to avoid this messy emotional stuff of love.

Let me tell you, true love is first and foremost an emotional feeling of strong affection and personal attachment. If it is not, it would seem rather strange to tell my wife that I love her, but feel nothing toward her. If love is just a principle, then as a matter of principle all I need to do is treat her kindly, help her as much as I can, respect her and admire her positive attributes. No need to feel anything.

Sure, there are valuable and virtuous principles that flow from a spirit (also an emotive attribute) of love. But love is at its pure essence a positive emotion. You cannot separate the emotion from love and still have love.

Well said, Tom. I agree completely.

[CoAspen]

Thanks for your last two posts, I was thinking along the same lines for a response but figured it would just lead to repeating myself.

I forgot about the Vulcans!!!!!