Raising a boy to manhood

[M. T. Cross]

Since this subject has totally derailed another thread I thought it could have its own thread.

It was mentioned that a boy needs at least 5 older men to guide him the manhood and that a mother can not raise a boy to be a man. (by this I am assuming the meaning being a "real" man )

In an ideal world I believe a child should have two parents. I have no respect for men (or women) that cop out on their parental responsibilities.

I am going to go on record here though and say that I believe a woman can do a fine job of raising a boy to be a man.

I was pretty much raised by my mom. My dad was around, he lived in the same house as us, but if he was not working he was buried in his bible or EGW book and never had much to say. I am not saying this as a put down to my dad, when I was in my 30's I finally got to know him as a person and began to understand why he was the father he was (or was not). Sadly he died a couple years ago when I was 40 and I feel a little robbed of only having a few years of a real relationship with him.

But my mother, for all her faults, took on the responsibility or raising me pretty much by herself. She taught me about respect, dignity, self - honesty and yes she taught me to embrace my emotions. I think I turned out quite well. I have had some issues along the way but in the last 31 years I have only been out of work for 15 months total, I have never been to jail, I have way more friends than enemies (actually can't think of any enemies), I try to treat everyone I meet with respect and try to see the best in them until they prove otherwise.

Am I macho? No I am not.

Am I masculine? for the most part yes. My mom encouraged my love of sports as much as she encouraged me to play music and to spend time enjoying beauty. She raised me to be strong in tough situations and to care about my family.

Sadly my mom ended up severely mentally ill in the later part of her life and became a person I did not know and at one point a person I could no longer be around. But while she had her wits about her she was gave me everything I needed to be a man. A real man.

[olger]

Without discussing your personal situation (be glad to do so in private) I offer this contribution to the thread title.

Fathers are different from mothers. They look different, they sound different, they play in a different way, and they usually have a different approach to raising children than a mother does. And that's a good thing. A boy learns from his father, without even realizing he's doing it, what a man is and does. He learns about masculinity, about what men like and don't like.

According to Ross Park, Ph.D., University of California

"Research shows that without a doubt, fathers are an integral part of their sons' healthy emotional, physical, and cognitive growth from their first moments of life. Boys whose fathers love them and can demonstrate that love in consistent, caring ways have fewer problems later in life with peers, academics, and delinquent behavior. One study tracked a group of boys and girls for twenty-six years, exploring the roles of both mothers and fathers in nurturing emotional health and empathy. While the mother's role was important, by far the most influential factor in a child's emotional health was how involved the father was in a child's care. In fact, the benefits of having an active, involved father during infancy and early childhood appear to last well into adolescence."

Some statistics may help guide our discussion, EC. Many boys today do not know what it means to be a man because they don’t have a man in their lives. Many children will go to bed tonight without saying goodnight to their father because he just isn’t there. My wife and I have counseled many such situations.

Nearly one-fourth of America’s children live in mother-only families. Out of the families living in Tennessee, for example, 39 percent of them are headed by a single mother.

Of the children living with their mothers, 35 percent never see their father and 24 percent see their fathers less than once a month.

93% of men in prison have either a bad relationship, or no relationship with their father. That's huge.

These children live with a woman and more than likely, they are taught by a woman at school. Where do they see and interact with positive male role models? Or, if they are a boy how do they learn what it means to be a man? Television? Movies? On the street?

Even in homes where the father is present research shows that the average father spends less than 10 minutes a day one-on-one with his child. We are living in a society where emotional and spiritual fatherlessness is becoming the norm. Many of today’s fathers did not have positive role models to show them what it means to be a father to a child, so they are not there to show their children what it means to be a father.

No matter how great a mother is, she cannot replace what a father provides to a child. Irrefutable research shows that mothers typically are nurturing, soft, gentle, comforting, protective and emotional. Fathers tend to be challenging, prodding, loud, playful, encourage risk taking, and physical. Children need a balance of protection and reasonable risk taking. If a positive male role model is not present in the life of a child there is a void in this area. Children who live in this environment are more likely to be involved in criminal activity, premarital sexual activity, do poorer in school and participate in unhealthy activities.

Studies have shown that involvement of a father or a positive male role model in the lives of children has profound effects on them. Father-child interaction promotes a child’s physical well being, perceptual ability and competency for relating with others. These children also demonstrate greater ability to take initiative and evidence self-control.

What can we do to help encourage these young people?

If you are a mother you can encourage the involvement of positive male role models in the life of your child.

If you are a positive male role model you can involve yourself in the lives of children in your community who can benefit from your influence.

rejoice always,

G

[Bravus]

Rhetorical positions tend to take us to extremes. It's possible to say 'fathers are important, and present fathers are better than absent fathers, good fathers are better than bad fathers (duh!)' without then saying 'it's impossible for a woman to raise a good man'. The latter proposition is refuted by many, many examples. But it doesn't even follow from the former.

[Bravus]

Quote:

Irrefutable research shows that mothers typically are nurturing, soft, gentle, comforting, protective and emotional. Fathers tend to be challenging, prodding, loud, playful, encourage risk taking, and physical.

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. Gender stereotypes in a particular culture, at a particular time, that were not even close to universal then and there. Taking all of humanity, it's simply nonsense. The range of constructions of masculinity and femininity in human cultures is immense, and the ways humans live within and across those constructions even more so.

(andplus, there's no such thing as 'irrefutable research')

[CoAspen]

Ya, tis really sad to see and hear the lengths that people have gone through to enforce the primary role of men and lessening the role of the women. It is not new but very ancient. We keep hearing that women can't make 'real' men but nothing about about men not being able to raise 'real' women. Seems a little one sided!!

[M. T. Cross]

Without discussing your personal situation (be glad to do so in private)

[M. T. Cross]

Ya, tis really sad to see and hear the lengths that people have gone through to enforce the primary role of men and lessening the role of the women. It is not new but very ancient. We keep hearing that women can't make 'real' men but nothing about about men not being able to raise 'real' women. Seems a little one sided!!

I was gonna start a thread for that too.......

[cricket]

What can we do to help encourage these young people?

If you are a mother you can encourage the involvement of positive male role models in the life of your child.

If you are a positive male role model you can involve yourself in the lives of children in your community who can benefit from your influence.

Would like to see this happen. There are too few men involved in the mentoring of children--of both sexes. Even in the church there are not enough men involved. They could be teaching in the lower division Sabbath schools, leading youth groups and directing Pathfinder organizations.

Women can do a good job of rearing boys to manhood, but it would sure be nice if more men would step in to help.

[bonnie]

Rhetorical positions tend to take us to extremes. It's possible to say 'fathers are important, and present fathers are better than absent fathers, good fathers are better than bad fathers (duh!)' without then saying 'it's impossible for a woman to raise a good man'. The latter proposition is refuted by many, many examples. But it doesn't even follow from the former.

I think it is unfair to present this as Olger or anyone else has said a "woman cannot raise a good man"

Olger and I have had some strong disagreements in the past but I don't believe this is what he is saying

Having four sons I can't fathom raising them by myself.But the same goes true of having four girls for different reasons.

I certainly would not have given mine away to a two parent family had something happened to my husband.

During the many years we cared for foster children,one came from an intact family and the children should never have been in the care of children

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/fatherhood/chaptertwo.cfm

The Importance of Fathers in the Healthy Development of Children

2. Fathers and Their Impact on Children's Well-Being

A noted sociologist, Dr. David Popenoe, is one of the pioneers of the relatively young field of research into fathers and fatherhood. "Fathers are far more than just 'second adults' in the home," he says. "Involved fathers bring positive benefits to their children that no other person is as likely to bring."6 Fathers have a direct impact on the well-being of their children. It is important for professionals working with fathers—especially in the difficult, emotionally charged arena in which child protective services (CPS) caseworkers operate—to have a working understanding of the literature that addresses this impact. Such knowledge will help make the case for why the most effective CPS case plans will involve fathers.

This chapter lays out the connection between fathers and child outcomes, including cognitive ability, educational achievement, psychological well-being, and social behavior. The chapter also underscores the impact of the father and mother's relationship on the well-being of their children. While serving as an introduction to the issues, this chapter is not intended as an exhaustive review of the literature. For the reader wishing to learn more, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/index.shtml), the National Fatherhood Initiative (www.fatherhood.orgexternal link), and the National Center for Fathering (www.fathers.comexternal link) are valuable resources.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think it is unfair to present this as Olger or anyone else has said a "woman cannot raise a good man"

Olger and I have had some strong disagreements in the past but I don't believe this is what he is saying

But that is exactly what he has been saying, repeatedly. Here are two direct statements, that I have underlined, by Ger:

Originally Posted By: olger

I also will state again that a boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. He must learn from another man or men. Jim Dobson has known this for decades, along with Mark Gungor, James Wilder, Anne Moir, Bob Mueller, Laura Schlessinger, Elizabeth Elliott Nancy Lee DeMoss, and a thousand others.

There are many good things we can learn from our mothers, as Paul said to Timothy, and how to be a man isn't one of them. That may be why Paul took Timothy under his wing - I like to think so.

Originally Posted By: olger

Single-mother households are not helping the situation either! A man cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. He must learn from a man.

A man is called to live by principle, not emotion.

So we have young men who have been 'trained' by lack of a father to act on emotion, and we combine that with testosterone. That makes a deadly combination.

So I am in agreement that training is needed, and I am calling for traditional homes and marriages as the best proving ground for that training.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think the key phrase here is "what it means to be a man". What does it mean? I would bet if we lined up 100 people we would get 90 different answers to that.

I think it would be helpful to get some specific answers to this question. What does it mean to be a man?

I think if we can identify what it means we will have a better idea of why Ger thinks that a mother cannot teach her son to be a man.

[bonnie]

But that is exactly what he has been saying, repeatedly. Here are two direct statements, that I have underlined, by Ger:

I also will state again that a boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. He must learn from another man or men. Jim Dobson has known this for decades, along with Mark Gungor, James Wilder, Anne Moir, Bob Mueller, Laura Schlessinger, Elizabeth Elliott Nancy Lee DeMoss, and a thousand others.

There are many good things we can learn from our mothers, as Paul said to Timothy, and how to be a man isn't one of them. That may be why Paul took Timothy under his wing - I like to think so.

I guess I am taking those statements differently than you.

Not being a man I could not teach my sons from a man's perspective. Raising them with an abusive or domineering father isn't the ideal or the plan anymore than raising them without a father in the home.

Seems many think that those that believe a father in the home is best and offers something different than the mother is somehow denigrating women.

Both have equal roles of importance to children but so far the topic has centered on the non-existent father or the domineering father.

Statistically a single parent household has children at greater risk.

[phkrause]

GP, obviously Dr Ben Carsons Mom did a pretty good job with her two boys I'd say.

[bonnie]

GP, obviously Dr Ben Carsons Mom did a pretty good job with her two boys I'd say.

It really isn't a question of whether some women can do a better than excellent job.Or pointing to those that have done a great job to help make the point the father is not relevant as some think they were meant to be. For every Ben Carson,how many boys without the father in the home do not succeed and what was the intended ideal. I think we all probably know situations that have not turned out very well as well as those that have against all odds.

Still doesn't void the enormous example fathers can provide for their sons,daughters as well,but this thread is concerning boys.

[Tom Wetmore]

Seems many think that those that believe a father in the home is best and offers something different than the mother is somehow denigrating women.

No. That is not what some of us are saying. Nobody here is speaking against the ideal of a two parent home or even against men as parents or saying that a father's unique role in parenting is "denigrating women". I think we are all in agreement that having both parents involved in raising children is the ideal. But the reality is obviously nowhere near that ideal for many families through no choice of that one parent stuck raising children by themselves. In that case to suggest that a women cannot possibly be up to that task without male help is demeaning to women.

Speaking for myself at least, what I have been challenging is Ger's repeated assertion that a woman cannot teach a boy to be a man. That denigrates a woman as lacking the ability to do what many mothers actually do successfully accomplish.

We are also left to speculate what he means by "to be a man." He is saying that without a man's help (at one point even suggesting it takes 5 men) a woman is incapable of raising a son by herself to be a good man. In the context of the original topic on rape and here according to his cited statistics, it seems apparent that he is saying that it takes a man to teach a boy to grow up to be a law abiding adult generally, and especially one that won't rape women. From what he keeps telling us, apparently he thinks a women by herself cannot do that.

What is not accounted for in those statistics is the full range of negative influences on men that end up in prison that were raised in a single mother household. It is never as simple as having no father in their life.

[bonnie]

Boys without fathers in the home are acknowledged to be at greater risk,whether it is by a religious spokesman or secular media.Boys from intact families do of course become members of gangs but not at nearly the number of fatherless homes. This particualar article is dealing black gang members but it holds true across skin color/race lines.

Ben Carson's mother should be commended but how many of these great success stories can you find compared to the many tragic unsuccessful stories

Re: “Racial attacks part of trend,” Nov. 22 news story.

Denver Post.

The Rev. Leon Kelly makes a very revealing statement when he says, “Moms are grieving because they feel like they’ve lost their kids to this [gang] behavior.”

It was noteworthy that Rev. Kelly referred only to moms, not parents, nor mothers and fathers.

Study after study has shown that single-motherhood and the lack of a strong father figure in the home are at the root of gang recruitment, poor performance in school, and minority community poverty in general.

The Rev. Kelly’s selfless work in gang prevention is very admirable. Sadly, his efforts will have little lasting effect in most of the boys’ lives.

Rev. Kelly, and others like him, can try to fulfill the role of the missing fathers of these gang members until the proverbial cows come home.

Only the stark realization by the minority community as to the destructiveness of single motherhood, followed by a change in behavior that embraces two-parent households, will ultimately provide a solution to the gang problem in Denver.

Lee Fairman, Fort Collins

[bonnie]

But the reality is obviously nowhere near that ideal for many families through no choice of that one parent stuck raising children by themselves. In that case to suggest that a women cannot possibly be up to that task without male help is demeaning to women.

Speaking for myself at least, what I have been challenging is Ger's repeated assertion that a woman cannot teach a boy to be a man. That denigrates a woman as lacking the ability to do what many mothers actually do successfully accomplish.

[Bravus]

Correlation is not causation. Poverty is strongly correlated with both single-parent families and crime, and the directions of causation are complex. One-factor analyses are too simplistic to yield robust recommendations.

[olger]

Hi friends.

Some good conversation going on here.

Some have felt that I wasn't being fair or equitable in my statements regarding the importance of fathers in the raising young boys to be men. Further, they were almost offended by my statement(s) that a boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman. Two things.

1) I stand by this statement "A boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman."

2) It is also true that a girl cannot learn how to be a woman from a man. Both influences of Father and Mother are needed for a healthy life. I believe all of us on here agree on this point, cheerfully admitted by EC and others.

But we live in a world broken by sin, and the ideal seems to be ever fading into a Victorian daguerreotype as the world edges closer to the End (2 Timothy 3:1). What do we do when father or mother is missing from the home? There are two things that can help.

1) A connection with the Lord God of heaven can really help. On many many occasions I have shared Psalms 27:10 with a hurting individual, and had the privilege of seeing them connect their heart to God, and experience His wonderful healing. Jesus is the only friend that people will ever have (kind of sad).

2) A young person without a Godly role model can (hopefully) find good role models to learn from. Many do. When a young boy is connected to an older man who takes the time to mentor him, that can be a tremendous benefit to the young man and ultimately lead to gratitude. It is in that same spirit that Paul wrote in the Bible that older women should teach the younger how to be keepers at home, pure, kind, obedient to their husbands and loving to their husbands and children (Titus 2:4-6).

Each of us guys have holes in our character, whether they be generational sins, cultivated defects or other things. That is why when a young man has older (Godly) men-tors to learn from, his life is greatly blessed. Think of our lives as a swiss cheese. When you lay five slices on top of each other—it covers up the holes. The same is true of girls, by the way.

I mentioned that 93% of men in prison have a bad, or no relationship with their father. This is true, and though sad, we should learn from it in hope of someday turning it around. A prison chaplain verified this statistic for me recently. A friend who has gotten free from homosexual sin (Wayne Blakeley) informed me in December that many homosexual males have a poor relationship with their fathers. But I digress..

What is a real man? I shudder to try and answer this on my own, hopefully some of you will add your own Biblical virtues to my inadequate attempt. I offer this illustration to help answer this question.

Three or four years ago, I received a call from a young girl. She was crying. She said her boyfriend had broken up with her. “I thought he loved me” was all she could say at first. I asked “What made you think that he loved you?”

She replied “Because we were having sex.”

I waited until she calmed down a bit, and broke the tough news gently. “That isn’t love. He was using you for his own pleasure, and when he got bored he moved on to someone else. Having fornication with a boy isn’t love at all. It is merely two selfish people damaging each other’s heart” (1st Corinthians 6:18).

After a bit she asked “How do I know when someone genuinely loves me?” Great question. “WHEN HE WANTS PROTECT YOU.” Including morally.

A real man will protect a woman’s heart (Ephesians 5:25-29). The word “cherish” in v. 29 means to “caress.” To treat tenderly. In spite of temptation, he will not violate her purity while dating – he will protect her in this area. This will help her to feel valued, loved, and protected. That is one aspect of Biblical manhood.

I often tell young women in the youth seminars we put on, “Don’t ever date a boy.” After the stunned silence and smiles fades away, I add “Date a man.” Nancy speaks to them too, on the value of Biblical modesty.

Big difference between a male and a man (real man) (Psalm 105:17; Proverbs 1:5; 9:9; 14:16).

Gerry

[Gail]

Thanks for the clarification, Ger. It always is helpful to get more information.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger, I have no problem with what you just posted. Except for the same statement you continue to stand by - "A boy cannot learn how to be a man from a woman."

Taking the excellent point you make about a man protecting the virtue of a woman he is dating, is it impossible for a mother to instill that character value in her sons without the help of a man?

I understand very well the value of role modeling. (My degree in psychology was not a total waste!) But is that the only possible way that a boy learns to be a man that protects women's virtue?

Yes, I also understand very well that having both a father and mother to raise a child makes it easier and more likely to be successful. But again, what you seem to be saying is that all of the single mothers of boys are absolutely doomed to failure unless they get a man to help them raise their boys.

[LoneRanger]

I tried to stay out of this discussion, I really did, but I've got to say a few things

I have to agree with olger on this count. To me, it's like this: No one can perfectly understand two cultures/religions/whatever at the same time. In other words, one can not perfectly understand Christianity and at the same time perfectly understand Islam. There are too many cultural nuances, unspoken understandings and variations in world view to make this possible. You only understand your own position, and try to see things from another's point of view.

Men "teach" boys to be men by being men. Women "teach" girls to be women by being women. There is no other way.

Just because there is a male in the house does not mean there is a man. (And whatever I say about men applies equally to women)

This should NOT be interpreted to mean that Men cannot do a GOOD job of raising girls to womanhood, or that Women cannot do a GOOD job of raising boys to manhood. This does happen a lot. But there will always be a central component missing.

What is that "central component" For men, it's, well...BEING a man. For women, it's, well...I have no idea. I can't figure out women. That's what THEY do.

Just my own thoughts.

[olger]

"This should NOT be interpreted to mean that Men cannot do a GOOD job of raising girls to womanhood, or that Women cannot do a GOOD job of raising boys to manhood. This does happen a lot. But there will always be a central component missing."

I appreciate this statement of yours, LR.

Michael Phelps, as a high profile product of a single-mother home, recounted the tremendous impact that Bob Bowman had on his life - filling a void. Michael has also demonstrated his appreciation of Bob's influence, by recently becoming a mentor for younger men. This is the beauty of maturity.

[Barrington]

Yes, women can raise boy to be perfect men. That is, a single mother, living at home with male child(ren). I do believe also the both boys and girls must have health interaction with adults from both genders to be healthy, however, that does not mean that both male and female parents must be in the same home to guarantee the the boy will be a man. I know of far too many mother who have raise healthy boys without a husband or man in the home. That is mom alone was there in the morning, cooking the food (then teaching thing), at nights went they went to bed, at the PTA meetings, etc. Not dad. The male in their lives might come at church socials, camping, school.

This is not an ideal world. And Please, let us not define every family unit type as dysfunctional. A home without a dad is not dysfunctional. Other dynamics must be present for dysfunction. Usually it is an addiction to something--drugs, alcohol, love, sex, anger.

30 TYPES OF FAMILY UNITS IN YOUR CHURCH

Below is a list of 30 types of family units that might be in your church each weekend. Ask yourself if your church is truly meeting the needs of each of these units. I created this list several years ago to help us to think how effectively we are reaching everyone. Here is the list with brief explanations when necessary.

Nuclear families (married mom and dad with children)

One married parent with dependents while the other parent is in prison

Never-married single adult families (mom or dad alone with children)

Divorced with no children

Divorced with dependent children

Separated with dependent children

Separated with no dependent children

Widowed with dependent children

Widowed with no children

Step and blended families (One or both adults have children for previous marriage or relationship)

Extended families (Adult relatives (not parents) living together with children

Grandparent with dependent children.

Teenager with young siblings. This is surprisingly common in our country.

Common-law relationship (long-term adults living together with no commitment or plans to marry)

Seasonal (or nomadic) union. When on partner lives aboard for extremely long periods or permanent only seeing each other annually or very rare occasions.

Emotionally separated or divorced union. This is a husband and wife who are living together but are going through severe problems and refuses to improve or refuses to divorce.

Affair-compromised union. One partner is aware that the other partner is having an affair and either tolerate or accept it. Or the innocent partner finds it difficult to leave because of financial reasons.

Same-sex union/marriage. Yes, some of these couples are in your church.

Homosexual/lesbian adult living alone.

Transgender/transsexual individuals living alone or with other adults or family members

Racially or ethnically mixed couples/families. (race, language or nationality)

A single, heterosexual, emerging adult (age 18-25) living with other single emerging adults (all non married males and/or females) - Communal living.

Single adults (one man and one woman-heterosexuals) living together before marriage (shaking up)

Senior family member (very old) who has Alzheimer's, or Dementia, or other mental challenges living with other family members.

A family unit with a severely developmentally disabled child/adult (Autistic, Down Syndrome, etc)

A family unit with a wounded war veteran.

A family unit with a member who has a long-term physical illness (Crohn’s disease, cancer, kidney failure and on dialysis, AIDS, etc)

Aged retired couple living alone with severe limitations.

Spiritually single family unit. One spouse is a Christian or religious or both partners are of different faiths or religions.

High profile leaders’ family unit. (This can include government leaders, pastors, or any one in a high profile position). Too often children and spouses of high profile leaders are neglected.

[LoneRanger]

And Please, let us not define every family unit type as dysfunctional.

Every family IS dysfunctional. That's just life.