Grounds for Divorce

[debbym]

i would say porm or sex addiction, or other perversion could also be a form of adultry/fornication that would also lawfully release the partner from the relationship.

not to suggest that in cases of sexual sin, the problems cannotrbe healed and the relationship be redeemed.

[BobRyan]

in the Gospels Christ noted that for either partner to even look at a person of the opposite sex with lust - was considered to be the sin of adultery in heaven.

Was Christ approving of divorce in all such cases of a spouse caught looking at someone else in that manner?

Probably not - but in 2Cor 10:4-5 we are called upon to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ". And in 1John 2 to "sin not".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

BTW - the divorce rate among husbands and wives that pray together is less than 1 in 1000.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Ellen White was very clear on the issue of divorce:

Quote:

"Nothing but the violation of the marriage bed can either break or annul the marriage vow" Ellen White Adventist Home p.341

That is true. But there appear to be a number of things being brought up here - other than "annulling the marriage vow".

In some cases Ellen White spoke of a wife returning to her mother and a husband having to continue his ministry alone because the wife was too spoiled and unfit to help him in his ministry and would only drag him down.

In that case she was not claiming that he had the right to get a divorce and re-marry - just that they would need to be separated if he was to continue his ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Quote:

the divorce rate among husbands and wives that pray together is less than 1 in 1000.

What is the source of this statistic?

It is said that 84.65% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Divorce is a matter of choice regardless of the circumstances. Violation of the marriage bed (or other sexual "infidelities" like getting off on porn) may be grounds for divorce; but divorce is not required. If "true love" as God would define it were involved, reconciliation is always an option.

If marriage is a model for our relationship with God, how many people should he have divorced over the millenia for being unfaithful to Him?

The church at one time published a book (I think it was a compilation) about things sexual - I can't remember the name. In it, somebody wrote to her complaining about a man who had left his wife, married another woman, and had children with her. The writer demanded that EGW "order" the accused leave the "other woman" and reconcile with his first wife or be disfellowshiped. EGW responded that the accuser basically mind his own business; that neither he nor she knew the circumstances of the accused's life, or the ramifications of leaving the "other woman" on the children of the second family. That is just my memory of the story; many years have passed since I read it; so I may have the details wrong.

I am in my second marriage - been married to my second wife for 30 years. This is also her second marriage. About 25 years ago, we almost broke up over the angst we were having about "living in adultery", since neither of our divorces was based on infidelity. We sought conselling from several pastors. None of them recommended that we end our marriage because because of previous "unbiblical" divorce.

[olger]

BTW - the divorce rate among husbands and wives that pray together is less than 1 in 1000.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gail]

The church at one time published a book (I think it was a compilation) about things sexual - I can't remember the name. In it, somebody wrote to her complaining about a man who had left his wife, married another woman, and had children with her. The writer demanded that EGW "order" the accused leave the "other woman" and reconcile with his first wife or be disfellowshiped. EGW responded that the accuser basically mind his own business; that neither he nor she knew the circumstances of the accused's life, or the ramifications of leaving the "other woman" on the children of the second family. That is just my memory of the story; many years have passed since I read it; so I may have the details wrong.

No, I remember such a story, but in the one I was thinking of I thought it was a family member whose wife had died and he had taken on a "caretaker" to help him with the children. I'd have to try and find that again. But IMO EGW was more merciful in cases like that than people give her credit for.

[ClubV12]

I keep waiting for some comments on Waggoners violation of the seventh commandment and how Ellen White handled that...

[Gail]

I keep waiting for some comments on Waggoners violation of the seventh commandment and how Ellen White handled that...

One place to go might be to the biography of him, E.G. Waggoner, by Woodrow W. Whidden.

I have seen many cases where an honest follower of God has turned to sex (or general intimacy?) despite what he believes.

Why is that? Maybe that is a matter for another thread.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

IMO EGW was more merciful in cases like that than people give her credit for.

I agree, Gail. IMO, she sometimes wrote about how things should be in an ideal unfallen society; and at other times addressed the practical realities of how life was in real-life fallen society. Sometimes people don't see the distinction; and consider the discrepancies as proof of her NOT being a prophet.

[olger]

THIS IS REALLY SAD

"Divorced! - First "Same-person Marriage" Ends in Bitter Divorce

First "Same-person Marriage" Ends in Bitter Divorce

Allen Smith, Yahoo! Contributor Network

Oct 3, 2006

Boston, MA - In a sad epilogue to an earlier published story (For Better or For Worse...), Roland Nigland, 33, has filed for divorce from himself citing irreconcilable differences. Readers may recall that Nigland, of Boston, Massachusetts became the first person to publicly profess his love for himself in what was believed to be the first "same-person" marriage on record.

"I honestly don't know what happened," said Nigland. "I was so much in love with myself. After the wedding, I set up house in a renovated Beacon Hill apartment, found a new job and made plans to start a family. All the usual stuff. But then just as quickly, things began to fall apart."

After only 18 months of marriage, Nigland began noticing that he stopped communicating with himself. "I used to love to walk along the beach holding my hand in mine, reminiscing about all of the good times I had," said Nigland. "I'd stay up half the night caressing myself, laughing and giggling like a teenager. I even talked about raising a little Nigland or two. But suddenly, I stopped sharing intimate secrets with myself. Sex became more and more infrequent and there were the calls from a mysterious stranger who would hang up as soon as I answered the telephone. I began to suspect that I might be having an affair, so I hired a private investigator."

"He was pretty distraught when he first contacted me," said Elwood Leggette, Private Investigator with Kanari, Shefer and Mordechai Investigation Services. "Mr. Nigland told me that he suspected himself of having an affair. He complained of late nights at the office, Chapstick stains on his collar and a declining sex drive at home. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was onto something."

After three months of tailing Nigland, Leggette was unable to catch him in the throws of another lover. "I followed him to and from the office, out to dinner, to the movies. The only person I saw him with was himself. He didn't even have any friends. So, we decided to terminate the investigation."

As Nigland continued to struggle through his turbulent marriage, he contacted Father Erasmo Floore, his pastor at Saint Filberto Bakalars Parish. "Roland came to me seeking advice on how he could salvage his marriage," said Floore. "Roland knew that marrying himself wasn't going to be easy. After all, at the time there was quite a stigma to marrying oneself. It's not like it is today. But he seemed committed to making it work." Father Floore recommended that Nigland start weekly sessions with Sister Asuncion Fariello, the parish's marriage counselor. "Roland struggled with a number of issues," said Fariello. "In particular, there were problems with money." Apparently, Nigland argued with himself over expensive purchases, vacations at the trendy Paranur Gandhi Leprosy Colony and visits to Starbucks. It got so bad that he tried setting up separate checking accounts. But even that didn't work.

Several months later, Nigland began suspecting that he might be having problems with drugs and alcohol. "I was always making excuses to myself for having to run out to the Loaf and Jug in the middle of the night. And, something was draining large sums of money from my bank account." One evening, Nigland found a half-empty bottle of Manischewitz wine squirreled away in one of his ski boots in the garage. "I confronted myself about the drinking. At first, I denied having a problem, but finally conceded that things had gotten out of hand." Nigland thought he had finally made significant progress towards saving his marriage. That is, until the physical abuse began.

One evening during a particularly heated discussion over a duvet cover, Nigland slapped himself across the face. "I just lost it. I couldn't believe that I would do that to myself. I started crying and locked myself in the bathroom." The next day, Nigland filed a restraining order against himself. "That was a pretty tough order to fill," lamented Sergeant Rodney Bolinger of the Boston Police Department. "What the restraining order said was that Mr. Nigland was not supposed to come within 100 yards of himself. We couldn't figure out how to enforce it." Three weeks after the order was issued, Nigland called the police complaining that he was in the same house with himself. The police took him away in handcuffs.

After months of failed attempts at reconciliation, Nigland finally filed for divorce. "I pleaded with myself. Let's try to make things work. Let's try a legal separation. At one point, I even suggested getting the marriage annulled, but I knew that the Catholic Church would never go for it. After all, I had already consummated the marriage."

With no prenuptial agreement in place, the divorce looked like it was going to be ugly. Nigland hired two attorneys; one for each side. Thankfully, there were no children from the marriage, so the battle that ensued dealt strictly with the distribution of property. After nearly six months of haggling back and forth, Nigland agreed to the conditions of Nigland. He was to get a generous monthly alimony payment if he agreed to give up his Beacon Hill apartment and the Audi.

"My life is shattered," confessed Nigland. "I really wanted the marriage to work. After all of those frustrating years of dating women, I thought I had finally found the man for me. It just goes to show how wrong you can be."

[ClubV12]

Thanks Gail, I am somewhat familiar with the case, enough so that I don't need to know more.

It's an extrordinary case because Waggoner, bless his heart, was an extraordinary man. No one is safe, no one! But his life is a good example of applying the many of the principles that Sister White has counseled us on to avoid these kinds of traps. It always start out with some small thing, a look, a comment, a false sympathizer to your problems. A problematic homelife that leads you to talk to someone about it. We must be on gaurd every minute and listen carefully, apply carefully, the counsel of the prophet, for our own protection. This "work" involves reading, studying, believing even though we don't understand (faith). Even when we think that "may be only her opinion". Or things were different back then. Applying those principles, the counsel, in our life can be a difficult thing, prayer and determination will be required.

For those that are not sure about what they think of the Lords messenger being inspired, good luck with charting your own course and trying it your way. The counsel is not for those who disbelieve, it's for those who do believe and follow.

[Gail]

Yes, the case I was thinking of wasn't Waggoner. So my comment was not concerning him. I don't know much about his life but I do know that he had an extra-marital "something" and I know he ended up outside the faith. I remember my boss, who did read his bio, telling me about it.

[ClubV12]

Gail says,

"extra-marital "something"

You bring up a good point there, these cases can be enormously complex and "extra-marital something" is as good a definition as I'll think we'll find. Obviously some cases are very clear cut. The public as well as the Church is aware and in a case like that the Church especially has a duty to uphold certain basic standards before the world.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

the divorce rate among husbands and wives that pray together is less than 1 in 1000.

What is the source of this statistic?

It is said that 84.65% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Divorce is a matter of choice regardless of the circumstances.

[Gregory Matthews]

A general statement directed at no one person:

Ellen White's writings can be divided into two specific types: There first were writings that were written to the church in general. The second were written to specific people.

To put it in another way, there are principles and there are judgments. A judgment is an application of a general principle. The principle should be applied forever and under all circumstances. The application of that principle may change due to circumstances and context.

Those written to specific people were always written in a specific context. When we read today advice that EGW gave to specific people, we will need to determine the time, circumstances and context.

To illustrate, I am reminded of an example given by A. L. White, the grandson of EGW: EGW once stated that the women living in Loma Linda should raise their skirts as they were to low. An examination of the length of the skirts that those women were wearing would give us some information as to context. Most would probably consider it to be wrong for someone to cite that advice of EGW today, ask that people comply with it today, and then do the same thing in 2014, 2015 and on and on forever. Such would result in the women of Loma Linda not wearing any skirts! Probably a miss-use of EGW advice.

There is another issue that should be surfaced: Language changes over time. Words that we use today do not always have exactly the same meaning that they had 100 years ago. To learn what they meant 100 or 200 or 400 years ago, is to use a historical dictionary. As an example, I once did a historical study of the English word "modest" as used in the United State in the time of EGW. I learned that it had undergone some changes in meaning. Some would probably say that those changes were modest and not major. O.K. The bottom line is that my study gave me additional insight as to what EGW probably meant when she used that word.

What does this all mean as applied to our discussion of divorce: 1) EGW gave much advice to specific people. We should seek to understand the circumstances and context. If she tells Brother X that he should never do Y, then that might be true for X but not a general application. We should look at the circumstances. 2) EGW was actually much less rigid in her application that she may be presented. 3) It is clear that EGW sometimes used words in a manner that differs somewhat from how those words are used today.

In addition, from the pastoral context, we have an obligation to treat people caught up in sin in a redemptive manner. This is not always cut and paste rigidity.

If you want to be challenged on # 3 above: EGW used the term "secret vice" multiple times. What do you think that she meant? Probably not what most people have been led to believe? But, I will leave that for you to figure out.

[Gerr]

[Kevin H]

Excellent post Greg

[Naomi]

[JoeMo]

I'll add my vote, Greg!

[ClubV12]

Gregory, it has been my experience that by far MOST Seventh-day Adventists indulge this issue of "context" and "history" to excuse themselves from following the counsel.

Anyone who is serious about secret vice or dress reform or modesty will have no problem understanding what Ellen White said. The problem is that someone quotes her work and very often it IS out of context. This is repeated so often it has benumbed our sense of the inspiration of Ellen White. It doesn't deny the gift of prophecy, it makes of no effect. Which is exactly what she said would happen concerning her counsel. Someone who denies the gift, flat out, is easy to deal with. Someone who minimizes the counsel, "spins it" with they're version of "context" is much more sinister in it's impact.

You mentioned women should raise they're dresses. This doesn't require any context for those who have actually read or studied the counsel for themselves. There is no problem understanding what she meant.

Secret vice is a similiar situation and in particular is widely met with scorn and unbelief. The counsel is typically not just dimissed, it's downright trashed for it's lack of scientific proof. The anti-deluvians were in a similiar position. Science declared what Noah was saying was impossible, and science WAS right! It was impossible based on all that the knew and there were very smart people, smarter than the scientists of today. Noah, put him in the "that was his opinion" box.

Modesty is not difficult to understand, while I agree the meaning has changed to some degree (not that much), it is still an easily understood and applied concept to anyone who takes the counsel seriously. It is easily misunderstood by those who rely only on a brief statement they hear from someone or see in some article.

Rely on other people for your theology and reap the whirlwind of confusion and "good excuses". Study to show YOURSELF approved.

[Gail]

Me, too! Well said!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Secret vice is a similiar situation and in particular is widely met with scorn and unbelief. The counsel is typically not just dimissed, it's downright trashed for it's lack of scientific proof.

Club V12: I find your resposne above to be interesting. It is clear that you beleive that you have the answer to what EGW meant by the term "secret vice." Have you ever considered that you may not understand what she meant?

There are people who take EGW seriously and want to apply her advice to their lives who would disagree with what you appear to believe to by her understanding of "secret vice." As they consider that to be her understanding of the term, they do not dismiss her comments.

If you do not even know and understand what these people beleve EGW referenced, how can you dismiss them as you do.

As I read your post, it looks to me like you are in the same situation. You appear to me be in a similar situation in regard to the word "modest." A historical dictionary of the English language will cleary show you that in the time of EGW the word "modest" had some common meanings that you seem to not recognize.

I will suggest that the same could be said for the term "secret vice." It is your choice as to whether or not you care to understand better what EGW actually said. But, I will suggest that by failing to fully understand her you have limited your understanding of one whom you claim to beleive and follows, but appear to me to come short in attempting to fully understand her.

I will suggest that this is a personal decision that each must make. For that reason, I am not going to be specific as to what these additional meanings are. Those who are really interested in knowing what EGW said and meant will want to study more on their own. Others will not.

[ClubV12]

"Those who are really interested in knowing what EGW said and meant will want to study more on their own. Others will not."

That was my point! I completely agree.

[Gail]

Is the secret vice the same today as it was then- porn + masturbation? The availability of porn on the Internet today far surpasses whatever they could have had in their day, but the idea would be the same, of images in the brain and the resulting action.

One devastating thing about this addiction is that you can't separate yourself from the parts of the body that are involved, as you can with drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.

I personally would term such as a sexual deviation and included in the term adultery. From what I've read the separation from the spouse is just as real.