Why symptoms over root cause?

[joeb]

I went to the doctor for a pain in my leg and was prescribed a pain killer. In doing so the doctor treated the symptom of my medical isssue, and not the cause.

As I look around these forums I see a lot of symptoms of our main spiritual malady being discussed instead of the root cause of those symptoms, and I wonder why. Can anyone enlighten me as to why?

[Gail]

Can you be specific?

[Gibs]

That happens to be the big cause with the so called medical profession of today, the big Pharma System.

Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

The meaning of "sorceries", below,

pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah

from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

See Greek 5332

Big Pharma is sure at it playing it's part, believe or not!

Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah

from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

See Greek 5332

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I'm thinking he's referring to spirituality, not literal drugs. But who knows?

[Gail]

Literal drugs are abounding these days, too!

[joeb]

I'm thinking he's referring to spirituality, not literal drugs. But who knows?

You're right. I am. I see all kinds of things being discussed as if they are very serious issues, and maybe they are or at least seem to be to us, but, they all boil down to one root cause. That root cause is twofold:

1. The lack of Christ in our lives.

2. The lack of belief in His power to radically change our lives.

It seems to me that #2 is at least partially responsible for #1, for why would we be serious about our relationship with Christ if we don't really believe in His power to change us. Or, maybe we don't really want to change? Seems to me it must be one or the other of those two reasons.

Since I started prayerfully studying The Desire of Ages a few weeks ago, and this is the deepest study I've ever made of it,(it took me 3 weeks of 3-4 hrs a day to work my way through it) I've become more and more convinced that all the spiritual problems in my life stem from a lack of Christ, and not only mine, but all of the church's problems too. Each and every issue I've seen discussed here has at its root cause what Christ said all the law and the prophets hang on. If that came first these other issues would all, and I mean all, disappear into thin air. They would be lost in love for Christ and love for our fellow man. We would all prefer our fellow man over ourselves.

So why do we focus our attention on minors and avoid the major issue?

[Gail]

[joeb]

So you like my last question?

[Gail]

Yep!

[joeb]

Yep!

Well, if you like the question so well, give me what you believe the answer to be....

Just as a reminder, my last question was, paraphrased: Why are we majoring in minors?

[ClubV12]

I've heard that saying, "Majoring in minors" and another one, "To heavenly minded...".

I like to seek, not always find, the balance. Someone said the other day, "All this talk about Daniel, majoring in minors." I think his point was we need to focus on Christ and I agree. But don't discount Daniel! The Church was FOUNDED on Daniel and the Revelation. It's been a HUGE part of my own spiritual growth. The "daily", OK, that is a minor point, but I love a good dialog and throw some ideas around.

To heavenly minded? NOT possible! Oh that I were more heavenly minded. I'm really getting serious about putting into practice the health message in my own life. Being cautious not to harp on it! But I've seen such wonderful benefits, I want more of what it has to offer. It really does take dedication and you really do have to make a determined effort. I'm not where I want to be, but I'm "working" on it. That too is focusing on Christ when you do it with the right spirit.

Symptoms: Not sleeping well as good as I'd like at night. Solution: Sleeping pill.

That aint gonna happen! I'm exercising more, eating right, TRYING not to eat anything after 4 pm (toast is OK?). It's working, I ask for Gods blessing for a good nights sleep and BAM, humanity working with divinity= good nights sleep.

[joeb]

I've heard that saying, "Majoring in minors" and another one, "To heavenly minded...".

I like to seek, not always find, the balance. Someone said the other day, "All this talk about Daniel, majoring in minors." I think his point was we need to focus on Christ and I agree. But don't discount Daniel! The Church was FOUNDED on Daniel and the Revelation. It's been a HUGE part of my own spiritual growth. The "daily", OK, that is a minor point, but I love a good dialog and throw some ideas around.

To heavenly minded? NOT possible! Oh that I were more heavenly minded. I'm really getting serious about putting into practice the health message in my own life. Being cautious not to harp on it! But I've seen such wonderful benefits, I want more of what it has to offer. It really does take dedication and you really do have to make a determined effort. I'm not where I want to be, but I'm "working" on it. That too is focusing on Christ when you do it with the right spirit.

Symptoms: Not sleeping well as good as I'd like at night. Solution: Sleeping pill.

That aint gonna happen! I'm exercising more, eating right, TRYING not to eat anything after 4 pm (toast is OK?). It's working, I ask for Gods blessing for a good nights sleep and BAM, humanity working with divinity= good nights sleep.

This is not what I'm talking about. Discussing prophecy is relevant to Christ for the entire Bible speaks of Him.

I'm talking about big disturbances in the church and on the site that stem from selfishness. For instance, all the "womens" issues would disappear if Christ was first in our lives, and His love ruled us. We would all prefer others over ourselves, so from where would the controversy arise? Does it not arise from bruised egos and hurt feelings? Does it not arise from men who love to "lord it over" women?

Women's issues is used only as an example, but other issues abound. Self jumps up and people's feelings get hurt. It's a fact of life, but if Christ really lived within us would not His peace be such a large part of us that we would not offense nearly so easily, or maybe not even at all? That's what both the Bible and the SOP tell me. That said, I'm not judging anyone else, for I'm just as guilty. I'm just interested in hearing why others think we are majoring in minors.

[Gerr]

That happens to be the big cause with the so called medical profession of today, the big Pharma System.

Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

The meaning of "sorceries", below,

pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah

from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

See Greek 5332

Big Pharma is sure at it playing it's part, believe or not!

Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah

from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

See Greek 5332

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I don't like the way the pharmaceutical industry has hijacked the medical profession, nor the way many doctors just treat symptoms, but a blanket condemnation of all drugs merely because of the origin of the word is totally unwarranted. Without insulin, antibiotics, and hormones, etc, which are all DRUGS, a lot of people would be dead, perhaps even you.

[ClubV12]

There were disputes among the apostles, the disciples and the early Church. Making all that go away because we have Christ in our life won't happen.

W.O. will not be resolved even if everyone sumbits there will to the other because the fundamental disagreements will still persist. Circumcision, meat offered to idols, these were serious issues that could have split the Church. Paul and Peter disagreeing, same thing. SO many examples of people, even WITH Christ strongly in their lives, prophets even, still disagreeing.

Daniel is exactly the same thing as W.O. Good people, sincere people, with different views. Sure most Adventists agree on the basics of Daniel. But hardly anyone agrees on Daniel 11 verse 45! And plenty of those disagreeing are deeply convicted men of God who really do love Jesus. Uriah Smith vs James White anyone? Our pioneers, like the early Church, DID experience during certain meetings or times of prayer while seeking light a very special "being of one accord". Those times are rare indeed during any time of Gods people.

At some point the remnant will become "perfectly united", like when that happened at Penticost, a rare day that was.

It's a worthy goal, to be perfectly united and having Christ soundly in our life is a prerequisite, but it will happen on Gods terms, not mans.

[Gibs]

No, Gerry, no drugs are needed, there is a better alternative of herbs and foods that are a far better approach.

EGW was even strong on this even in those early times.

All the natural healing clinics have been run out, also there is now plenty of cures for cancer but will they let them be used? No, too much big money made on the losing procedures they are using.

Getting down with something now and seeing the doctors of today and being hospitalized and going to nursing homes to recoup is highway robery of the people!

Milking all the cash cows they have makes them highly rich.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

There were disputes among the apostles, the disciples and the early Church. Making all that go away because we have Christ in our life won't happen.

W.O. will not be resolved even if everyone sumbits there will to the other because the fundamental disagreements will still persist. Circumcision, meat offered to idols, these were serious issues that could have split the Church. Paul and Peter disagreeing, same thing. SO many examples of people, even WITH Christ strongly in their lives, prophets even, still disagreeing.

Daniel is exactly the same thing as W.O. Good people, sincere people, with different views. Sure most Adventists agree on the basics of Daniel. But hardly anyone agrees on Daniel 11 verse 45! And plenty of those disagreeing are deeply convicted men of God who really do love Jesus. Uriah Smith vs James White anyone? Our pioneers, like the early Church, DID experience during certain meetings or times of prayer while seeking light a very special "being of one accord". Those times are rare indeed during any time of Gods people.

At some point the remnant will become "perfectly united", like when that happened at Penticost, a rare day that was.

It's a worthy goal, to be perfectly united and having Christ soundly in our life is a prerequisite, but it will happen on Gods terms, not mans.

Hmmm.... Are you telling me it is not God's will for His church to be like Christ at all times? You're going to have to point to chapter and verse....

[ClubV12]

Of course it is Gods will, but it aint gonna happen (sin)! What your asking is WHY can't it? Lets start with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, to be "perfectly united". Well WHY can't the Adventists be perfectly united with the Methodists? Would that suggest that Methodists don't have Christ in their heart? "Many sheep have I that are not of this fold." Obviously there are people in the Catholic, Methodist and many other Churches that are deeply connected to Christ. How come they are not Adventists? How come we aren't having Pentecost next week with the Holy Spirit being poured out? WHEN are we going to agree on so many different issues?

Aint gonna happen... UNTIL the shaking is completed. May be in our life time, maybe not, no mans knows the day or the hour.

NO WAY this Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be united BEFORE the shaking is completed. There WILL be a "false revival" before then, where it will appear everything is going along nicely. Gib's you touched on that the other day when you said some Adventists are seeing a "coming together" and things appear to be getting better. When the false revival comes, they won't know if it's real or not. Theres a good chance none of us will, at first, but it will become clear in time.

Following that will be the true revival (where one in twenty or so will partake).

"Perfectly united" will happen just before the seven last plagues are poured out and the final test comes to all mankind, the Sabbath issue.

Meanwhile it's OK to agree to disagree, how we do that, with Christ as our example is the goal for me. I'm not there yet...

[ClubV12]

I do believe there is a time and place for some drugs. I believe that has been true since about 1945 or so, when substantial advances in chemistry and medicine were made.

But Sister Whites counsel remains a pillar! FAR more harmful drugs exist now than in her time. Over use is off the chart.

[Woody]

Praise God our life expectancy is increasing with all the good drugs out now.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

......also there is now plenty of cures for cancer but will they let them be used? No, too much big money made on the losing procedures they are using.

An opinion that is with out foundation and show a lack of knowledge or purposeful ignorance of the facts. We have been down that road before on EGW words against drugs...of her day! I find it appalling to here people use her words totally out of context.

[debbym]

Quote:

I've become more and more convinced that all the spiritual problems in my life stem from a lack of Christ, and not only mine, but all of the church's problems too. Each and every issue I've seen discussed here has at its root cause what Christ said all the law and the prophets hang on. If that came first these other issues would all, and I mean all, disappear into thin air. They would be lost in love for Christ and love for our fellow man. We would all prefer our fellow man over ourselves.

i am impressed, and i profoundly agree. The Cristian experience is progressive, an ever deeper conformity to the will of God so His ideals for us can be expressed and bring Glory to God.

in DA i foound this...

the three passions that governed every moment of Christ's life, and which will also goven our lives when His Life is lived in us richly through the effective working of the word of God.

1. Love for God

2. Love for fallen mankind

3. Longing for the glory of God.

[phkrause]

Quote:

I've become more and more convinced that all the spiritual problems in my life stem from a lack of Christ, and not only mine, but all of the church's problems too. Each and every issue I've seen discussed here has at its root cause what Christ said all the law and the prophets hang on. If that came first these other issues would all, and I mean all, disappear into thin air. They would be lost in love for Christ and love for our fellow man. We would all prefer our fellow man over ourselves.

i am impressed, and i profoundly agree. The Cristian experience is progressive, an ever deeper conformity to the will of God so His ideals for us can be expressed and bring Glory to God.

in DA i foound this...

the three passions that governed every moment of Christ's life, and which will also goven our lives when His Life is lived in us richly through the effective working of the word of God.

1. Love for God

2. Love for fallen mankind

3. Longing for the glory of God.

I very much your post. I found a very interesting word in your post, and I highlighted it. Its interesting in the fact that many seem to think, especially on this forum, that that word "progressive" is sunonemis(sp) with sin. I personally don't and have no problem with people being "progressive."

[Gail]

Not only a deeper conformity to the will of God, but a deeper sense of awe and wonder.

[joeb]

Of course it is Gods will, but it aint gonna happen (sin)! What your asking is WHY can't it? Lets start with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, to be "perfectly united". Well WHY can't the Adventists be perfectly united with the Methodists? Would that suggest that Methodists don't have Christ in their heart? "Many sheep have I that are not of this fold." Obviously there are people in the Catholic, Methodist and many other Churches that are deeply connected to Christ. How come they are not Adventists? How come we aren't having Pentecost next week with the Holy Spirit being poured out? WHEN are we going to agree on so many different issues?

Aint gonna happen... UNTIL the shaking is completed. May be in our life time, maybe not, no mans knows the day or the hour.

NO WAY this Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be united BEFORE the shaking is completed. There WILL be a "false revival" before then, where it will appear everything is going along nicely. Gib's you touched on that the other day when you said some Adventists are seeing a "coming together" and things appear to be getting better. When the false revival comes, they won't know if it's real or not. Theres a good chance none of us will, at first, but it will become clear in time.

Following that will be the true revival (where one in twenty or so will partake).

"Perfectly united" will happen just before the seven last plagues are poured out and the final test comes to all mankind, the Sabbath issue.

Meanwhile it's OK to agree to disagree, how we do that, with Christ as our example is the goal for me. I'm not there yet...

[joeb]

Quote:

I've become more and more convinced that all the spiritual problems in my life stem from a lack of Christ, and not only mine, but all of the church's problems too. Each and every issue I've seen discussed here has at its root cause what Christ said all the law and the prophets hang on. If that came first these other issues would all, and I mean all, disappear into thin air. They would be lost in love for Christ and love for our fellow man. We would all prefer our fellow man over ourselves.

i am impressed, and i profoundly agree. The Cristian experience is progressive, an ever deeper conformity to the will of God so His ideals for us can be expressed and bring Glory to God.

in DA i foound this...

the three passions that governed every moment of Christ's life, and which will also goven our lives when His Life is lived in us richly through the effective working of the word of God.

1. Love for God

2. Love for fallen mankind

3. Longing for the glory of God.

I've read the same thing.

In the chapter Let Not Your Heart be Troubled in the DofA Ellen White says that before Christ's death and resurrection, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the disciples really didn't have any idea of just how powerful Jesus really is. They had no idea of the unlimited resources that were at His beck and call so He could give them to His church. Now, if after 3 1/2 years of watching Christ perform miracles, and even His giving them the power to perform miracles, the disciples still didin't understand what Christ had to give them just how ignorant are we of His power that He longs to use within us? I mean just how common is it for us to see miracles performed? How satisfied are we with insignificant results in our lives?

We have all the resources of the entire Godhead at our disposal, and we're more interested in a whole lot of nothing, spiritually speaking, than we are in having our lives radically changed and being like Christ.

Why are we so interested in the dry theory of religion and spending our time majoring in minors when we can have the power of God displayed in our lives now?