Why symptoms over root cause?

[Gail]

Quote:

In the chapter Let Not Your Heart be Troubled in the DofA Ellen White says that before Christ's death and resurrection, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the disciples really didn't have any idea of just how powerful Jesus really is. They had no idea of the unlimited resources that were at His beck and call so He could give them to His church. Now, if after 3 1/2 years of watching Christ perform miracles, and even His giving them the power to perform miracles, the disciples still didin't understand what Christ had to give them just how ignorant are we of His power that He longs to use within us? I mean just how common is it for us to see miracles performed? How satisfied are we with insignificant results in our lives?

We have all the resources of the entire Godhead at our disposal, and we're more interested in a whole lot of nothing, spiritually speaking, than we are in having our lives radically changed and being like Christ.

Thank you for this!

[ClubV12]

I think your right Joeb, I missed the point of your original question. Which, I think is, what is the root cause of our spiritual malady.

As as been mentioned there is only way to overcome spiritual malady, from the heart a true longing and desire to be like Him. To be like Him has different meanings to different people, uh oh, back to the unity problem! We still struggle to come up with a good definition of righteousness by faith. We've been struggling with that since the time of Paul, but more specifically in the modern sense it can be traced to 1888.

A.T. Jones was one man God used to give this message, interesting to note that not everything came from the prophet! All though Ellen White correctly mentions righteousness by faith is what she had been preaching for fifty years! As you study A.T. Jones and his message over a period of years it becomes apparent he himself had lost the balance on the message. At some point he began to stress the faith part while ignoring the works part.

This is heart work, finding the balance in all things comes from the Holy Spirit.

[joeb]

I think your right Joeb, I missed the point of your original question. Which, I think is, what is the root cause of our spiritual malady.

As as been mentioned there is only way to overcome spiritual malady, from the heart a true longing and desire to be like Him. To be like Him has different meanings to different people, uh oh, back to the unity problem! We still struggle to come up with a good definition of righteousness by faith. We've been struggling with that since the time of Paul, but more specifically in the modern sense it can be traced to 1888.

A.T. Jones was one man God used to give this message, interesting to note that not everything came from the prophet! All though Ellen White correctly mentions righteousness by faith is what she had been preaching for fifty years! As you study A.T. Jones and his message over a period of years it becomes apparent he himself had lost the balance on the message. At some point he began to stress the faith part while ignoring the works part.

This is heart work, finding the balance in all things comes from the Holy Spirit.

You're looking at this, what I bolded, from a purely human perspective. If our hearts were surrendered to Christ He would be the one doing the changing, and bringing us into fellowship. Our definitions wouldn't matter for Christ would be in charge of all changes. Thus, the closer we would all come to Christ the closer we would be coming to each other. That's why differences among us would melt.

Ellen White teaches RbyF all through her writings. She just doesn't use the term (RbyF) all the time. In fact she rarely uses it, just like the Bible rarely uses it and yet it is found throughout both the Old and New Testaments. The Desire of Ages, and, in fact, the entire Conflict of the Ages series is chock full of righteousness by faith. So are Steps to Christ, Thoughts From the Mount of Blessings, The Ministry of Healing, etc....

Ellen White just teaches RbyF in practical terms of how to build our relationship with God. She doesn't use all kinds of confusing terminology, and I think that's why so many people miss it in her writings. I find her views on RbyF to be extremely powerful. The ideas she expresses will radically change our hearts if we will just put them into practice.

Please read the thread titled "the faith of Jesus" and comment on it. There's a lot there on RbyF too. The threads on The Desire of Ages and Thoughts From the Mount of Blessings are both full of Ellen White's writings on RbyF.

[ClubV12]

Joeb says,

"If our hearts were surrendered to Christ He would be the one doing the changing,..."

Lets consider that statement (at risk of majoring in minors). Perhaps you are making the same mistake A.T. Jones made in time? Some, on this forum, would have us believe righteouness by faith requires no effort on our part, our "works" mean nothing.

When I first heard the RbyF theology that was new light to me and it was wonderful. Mostly because I saw the standards and realized I was a man undone, no hope of climbing the mountain of of all those laws and works. My ONLY hope was His righteousness! Later when I read Ellen White said she had been preaching RbyF for fifty years, I thought, HOW is that possible? Her blue print of the recommended lifestyle for the Seventh-day Adventist people is very detailed, theres a "law" for everything! Not unlike Moses' direction to the people of his time, very detailed. HOW is that compatible with righteousness by faith?

In time I began to understand it, but it remains a bit illusive. It's something each one of us need to "find" everyday. You don't "learn it" and now and then your done with that.

We have a part to play in the sanctification process, while it is true Christ is doing the changing, He has given us a certain measure of faith, of determination, of "back bone" to enter into this work with Him. That is divinity combining with humanity. I see this same principle played out in the life of Jesus, who always had free will. He asked the Father "to let this cup pass", He did not have to drink it. He submitted His will to the Father and "determined" (set His heart) to follow through.

Ellen White at various times speaks of her "determination", her will, to apply some new light into her life. She wasn't always successful immediately, there were hard fought battles with self she had to overcome. We see the same principle with Joseph and Daniel. In each case they determined, they made a decision, they placed they're will with God, to follow Him. And in turn divinity granted them the power, AS it was needed, on a daily basis. Perhaps a minute by minute basis when Daniel was cast in the fire or the Lions den, or when Joseph was being hauled off to the dungeon.

I am right now, everyday, applying more and more principles of health reform into my life. I'm not looking for some "magic power" to start eating better or stop eating worser. I pray, I recognize there will be a battle and a march, I determine to do the best I can for that meal, or that day. Slowly I realize I have to plan ahead farther, when shopping, well before I actually eat to think about what I might have to prepare. I have never cooked, this is hard work for me!

Daniel wasn't always successful in following God, but what I like about him is that he WANTED to. It was his desire, he truly repented and accepted the Lords reproof as an excellent oil for his mistakes. He never gave up, he set his heart to follow the Lord.

I am indeed considering the "human perspective" in combination with the "divinity perspective", RbyF requires both.

[joeb]

Joeb says,

"If our hearts were surrendered to Christ He would be the one doing the changing,..."

Lets consider that statement (at risk of majoring in minors). Perhaps you are making the same mistake A.T. Jones made in time? Some, on this forum, would have us believe righteouness by faith requires no effort on our part, our "works" mean nothing.

When I first heard the RbyF theology that was new light to me and it was wonderful. Mostly because I saw the standards and realized I was a man undone, no hope of climbing the mountain of of all those laws and works. My ONLY hope was His righteousness! Later when I read Ellen White said she had been preaching RbyF for fifty years, I thought, HOW is that possible? Her blue print of the recommended lifestyle for the Seventh-day Adventist people is very detailed, theres a "law" for everything! Not unlike Moses' direction to the people of his time, very detailed. HOW is that compatible with righteousness by faith?

In time I began to understand it, but it remains a bit illusive. It's something each one of us need to "find" everyday. You don't "learn it" and now and then your done with that.

We have a part to play in the sanctification process, while it is true Christ is doing the changing, He has given us a certain measure of faith, of determination, of "back bone" to enter into this work with Him. That is divinity combining with humanity. I see this same principle played out in the life of Jesus, who always had free will. He asked the Father "to let this cup pass", He did not have to drink it. He submitted His will to the Father and "determined" (set His heart) to follow through.

Ellen White at various times speaks of her "determination", her will, to apply some new light into her life. She wasn't always successful immediately, there were hard fought battles with self she had to overcome. We see the same principle with Joseph and Daniel. In each case they determined, they made a decision, they placed they're will with God, to follow Him. And in turn divinity granted them the power, AS it was needed, on a daily basis. Perhaps a minute by minute basis when Daniel was cast in the fire or the Lions den, or when Joseph was being hauled off to the dungeon.

I am right now, everyday, applying more and more principles of health reform into my life. I'm not looking for some "magic power" to start eating better or stop eating worser. I pray, I recognize there will be a battle and a march, I determine to do the best I can for that meal, or that day. Slowly I realize I have to plan ahead farther, when shopping, well before I actually eat to think about what I might have to prepare. I have never cooked, this is hard work for me!

Daniel wasn't always successful in following God, but what I like about him is that he WANTED to. It was his desire, he truly repented and accepted the Lords reproof as an excellent oil for his mistakes. He never gave up, he set his heart to follow the Lord.

I am indeed considering the "human perspective" in combination with the "divinity perspective", RbyF requires both.

[ClubV12]

Alas, it seems we will find no unity of righteousness by faith and the roll of works. Then again, that debate has been raging within the Church for over a hundred years, so we are in good company. To "surrender" involves making a choice, a decision, free will.

"The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise."

Meat was a big problem for Ellen White. When she first saw the light on the subject her diet consisted almost entirely of meat. She made a few biscuits and thought when she got hungry enough, she would be willing to eat them. She had a "work" to do. Find the flour, prepare the cakes, determine to eat them even though they repulsed her. When she got hungry enough, she took a revolting bite.

Early on I followed that example. I "determined" to give this vegetarian lifestyle a shot. I bought a bunch of fruits and vegetables (not a clue how to prepare them), put them in my fridge and thought, "When I get hungry enough, I'll figure out how to eat some of that stuff." And I have been blessed, I keep making progress. I thank God for giving me the power to make those decisions and follow through. I have to make a choice everyday, still. It's getting easier, but it hasn't been overnight, it wasn't some miracle like a flash of lighting. I had to pray and then get up and go shopping.

[joeb]

Alas, it seems we will find no unity of righteousness by faith and the roll of works. Then again, that debate has been raging within the Church for over a hundred years, so we are in good company. To "surrender" involves making a choice, a decision, free will.

"The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise."

Meat was a big problem for Ellen White. When she first saw the light on the subject her diet consisted almost entirely of meat. She made a few biscuits and thought when she got hungry enough, she would be willing to eat them. She had a "work" to do. Find the flour, prepare the cakes, determine to eat them even though they repulsed her. When she got hungry enough, she took a revolting bite.

Early on I followed that example. I "determined" to give this vegetarian lifestyle a shot. I bought a bunch of fruits and vegetables (not a clue how to prepare them), put them in my fridge and thought, "When I get hungry enough, I'll figure out how to eat some of that stuff." And I have been blessed, I keep making progress. I thank God for giving me the power to make those decisions and follow through. I have to make a choice everyday, still. It's getting easier, but it hasn't been overnight, it wasn't some miracle like a flash of lighting. I had to pray and then get up and go shopping.

[joeb]

Some more for you from Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing.

Quote:

Righteousness is holiness, likeness to God, and “God is

love.” 1 John 4:16. It is conformity to the law of God, for

“all Thy commandments are righteousness” ( Psalm 119:172

), and “love is the fulfilling of the law” ( Romans 13:10 ).

Righteousness is love, and love is the light and the life of God.

The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ. We receive

righteousness by receiving Him.

Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or

sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is freely given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it. “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat, ... without money and without price.” “Their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord,” and, “This is His name whereby He shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.” Isaiah 55:1; 54:17; Jeremiah 23:6.TFMB p.18

[ClubV12]

There is no doubt that ALL good things flow from the Father. He has given each of us a measure of faith. That is the essence of righteousness by faith! Acknowledging that we have nothing to offer and can do nothing of ourselves.

Our response to this outpouring of love and recognition of His righteousness? We must accept it, make that choice, an active thing, a decision (for Christ), a step we must take.

Righteousness is "right doing". A faith that will result in changes in our life, sanctification, is the "work" of a lifetime. Justification, is the work of a moment, the very moment we choose to accept, believe, follow Christ in that very moment we covered by His righteousness. While we pursue sanctification we need justification all along the way, everyday, sometimes every moment. Because we will never achieve "enough sanctification" to equal being "holy enough" to warrant salvation. As we pursue sanctification we draw closer to Christ, in doing so, we understand more and more how high the calling is. We see more and more how short we fall of the goal.

Once again, I am brought to the place where I understand, "I am a man undone", without His covering grace I will never be "good enough". But I am WILLING Lord, like David, I WANT to follow Him. I don't always make that choice, I don't always choose to do what I know is the right thing, I ashamed to say it! I will not repeat it!!! I will speak as if my faith is invicible, unbreakable, my only hope, His righteousness allowing me to do so.

[ClubV12]

Justification, happens the very moment a repentant sinner confesses, seeks forgiveness and accepts by faith the he is accepted by the Father because he is covered with the robe of Christs righteousness. The Father see's only the righteousness of Jesus, not the sinner.

Sanctification, happens over the course of a lifetime. A work in progress, Christ ever leading us to higher ground. As we draw closer and understand the law we see how impossible it is for us to attain righteousness. Never the less, we continue to grow in Christ, all the while, accepting His righteousness as the robe that covers our short comings.

The Christian walk really is about meeting the Father, to whom we can only approach through the Son. The more I understand this, the more I have come to love the Father for giving us His Son to allow this to happen.

[Gail]

There might be more to it, too. I remember hearing a sermon that talked about there being more to justification than the momentary event that you describe. And, there is more to sanctification than the process you describe, too. There are places in the Bible that talk about us already being sanctified.

You gotta think BIG when thinking Biblical concepts. The more I dig into them the bigger they become, to my awe and wow-sense.

[ClubV12]

In the case of the thief on the cross, justification and sanctification would have occured pretty much at the same time. So it is with any given individual, only God knows.

Moses struck the rock twice, all things considered a very minor mistake. But a mistake he literally paid for with his life. His salvation (sanctification) was never in question, but he endured the punishment, the curse, of sin in this life never the less.

Each one is held to a different standard, as we progress in our walk, the standard is raised higher and higher.

NONE will reach a state of perfection, all though we seem to hear that a lot. As if it were literally possible. It is possible only in the sense that our total reliance is on Him.

When Ellen White inquired if she could eat of the tree of life the angel replied to the effect that if she REMAINED faithful to the end, she would. The work is never done, for anybody.

Sister White is the one who said sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As we learn, over time, to reduce our inherited and cultivated tendencies toward evil.

[Gail]

Quote:

Sister White is the one who said sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As we learn, over time, to reduce our inherited and cultivated tendencies toward evil.

Yep, that and more. It just gets better

I'm agreeing with you totally on the faithfulness. That is to be the buzzword, if you will, for the last days.

[ClubV12]

Indeed, the third angels message IS righteouness by faith! It's meaning and application is sufficiently complex (and yet so simple) that I have come to believe it can only be experienced in a persons life. I can't explain it, all though it IS a good idea to try to explain it, to study it, to read about it, contemplate it. All good ways the Holy Spirit use's to speak to our heart.

[joeb]

Justification, happens the very moment a repentant sinner confesses, seeks forgiveness and accepts by faith the he is accepted by the Father because he is covered with the robe of Christs righteousness. The Father see's only the righteousness of Jesus, not the sinner.

Sanctification, happens over the course of a lifetime. A work in progress, Christ ever leading us to higher ground. As we draw closer and understand the law we see how impossible it is for us to attain righteousness. Never the less, we continue to grow in Christ, all the while, accepting His righteousness as the robe that covers our short comings.

The Christian walk really is about meeting the Father, to whom we can only approach through the Son. The more I understand this, the more I have come to love the Father for giving us His Son to allow this to happen.

And yet when I post the quote about "when we know God as it is privilege to know Him our lives will be one of continual obedience" you object.

[joeb]

There might be more to it, too. I remember hearing a sermon that talked about there being more to justification than the momentary event that you describe. And, there is more to sanctification than the process you describe, too. There are places in the Bible that talk about us already being sanctified.

You gotta think BIG when thinking Biblical concepts. The more I dig into them the bigger they become, to my awe and wow-sense.

You need to show me what you're referring to. I've said a lot on this subject so a blind reference is pretty confusing to me.

[Gail]

Hahaha gotta go dig that particular one up from the reaches of my memory. It was a sermon I listened to one. It was intriguing, but giving reasons that justification carries on further than the legal standing/one time event.

I often claim here on the board that a subject is larger than the scope people are *discussing*, that how can someone argue, say, the nature of Christ or the concept of God? Like skyblue said once, the secret things belong to the Lord God but there are some things that He has revealed. Hence we can know what has been revealed.

I'm saying that even if we know what is revealed, there are themes that will STILL remain beyond our understanding. I believe that the understanding of salvation is one of those. How did I come to that conclusion? Just in my topical studies. It seems that the more I dig, the bigger and more wonderful a subject becomes and that there is way more to learn. I feel like a kid in a candy shop! The more we know about something that relates to God, the more there is to know.

[ClubV12]

Joeb, this is marvelous theme you have brought out in this thread, concepts and considerations of the plan of salvation. Beyond whatever differences may or may not be apparent THIS is the ONE theme above all others that we will study for eternity, (as per Sister White).

"We should devote ourselves to the study of the plan of salvation, that we may have an appreciation of how highly Jehovah has valued the salvation of man." RH, October 7, 1890 par. 1

This being a study worthy of infinite ages how dark is that glass we see through?

Like welding goggles, virtually blind without the brightest possible source of light. Wonderful considerations, precious gems of truth just waiting to be found.

[joeb]

Hahaha gotta go dig that particular one up from the reaches of my memory. It was a sermon I listened to one. It was intriguing, but giving reasons that justification carries on further than the legal standing/one time event.

I often claim here on the board that a subject is larger than the scope people are *discussing*, that how can someone argue, say, the nature of Christ or the concept of God? Like skyblue said once, the secret things belong to the Lord God but there are some things that He has revealed. Hence we can know what has been revealed.

I'm saying that even if we know what is revealed, there are themes that will STILL remain beyond our understanding. I believe that the understanding of salvation is one of those. How did I come to that conclusion? Just in my topical studies. It seems that the more I dig, the bigger and more wonderful a subject becomes and that there is way more to learn. I feel like a kid in a candy shop! The more we know about something that relates to God, the more there is to know.

[joeb]

Joeb, this is marvelous theme you have brought out in this thread, concepts and considerations of the plan of salvation. Beyond whatever differences may or may not be apparent THIS is the ONE theme above all others that we will study for eternity, (as per Sister White).

"We should devote ourselves to the study of the plan of salvation, that we may have an appreciation of how highly Jehovah has valued the salvation of man." RH, October 7, 1890 par. 1

This being a study worthy of infinite ages how dark is that glass we see through?

Like welding goggles, virtually blind without the brightest possible source of light. Wonderful considerations, precious gems of truth just waiting to be found.

Well, ever since I was introduced to Christ as someone who actually loved even me this has been about my only subject of study when studying spiritual things. It has fascinated me for decades, and I doubt that fascination will ever go away. The more I study it the more I'm drawn into it. As Ellen White says, we'll spend eternity studying the science of salvation.