Babylon is EAST!

[Windsor]

The book of Jeremiah is filled with references to Babylon coming from the North.

"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,” declares the Lord; “and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah." Jeremiah 1:15

“Lift up a standard toward Zion! Seek refuge, do not stand still, For I am bringing evil from the north, And great destruction. Jeremiah 4:6

The sound of a report! Behold, it comes— A great commotion out of the land of the north— To make the cities of Judah A desolation, a haunt of jackals. Jeremiah 10:22

behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Jeremiah 25:9

“Egypt is a pretty heifer, But a horsefly is coming from the north—it is coming! Jeremiah 46:20

“The daughter of Egypt has been put to shame, Given over to the power of the people of the north.” Jeremiah 46:24

(Egypt was also destroyed by Babylon)

[Kevin H]

ClubV, it's as I said about the two levels of Bible Study. First in it's immediate context, then the applications. Sadly we are weak in the firsst level which as we improve there will bring more success with the second.

Daniel itself gives the principle. In Daniel 2 there are four KINGS, the book of Daniel mentions four kings then a period of toes. Had God's people been faithful in spreding the gospel the king after those four kings and durring the toes would have been the Messiah.

In Daniel 7 and 8 it becomes expanded from the kings to kingdoms.

Daniel 9-12 tells us what would have happened had Jesus been accepted. Jesus would have been crudified in the middle of the week. This evil person a direct servant of Satan would come claiming to be the messiah, be worshiped as the Messiah, but then those who were wise would realize that he was the anti-messiah and reject him. This anti-messiah would have gone out conquering nations, avoiding the nations that had once known the truth and rejected the truth since he already had them on his side. He would have conqured Israel and moved on then hear a roumor that would terrify him and make him rush back to Jerusalem. That roumor was that Michael stood up. the prince that was cut off in the mist of the week was to be resurected towards the end of the week, and the 2300 days would have been the time of the final victory over evil and recreation of the world of the last 2300 literal days of the 70 weeks of years.

By studying what COULD have happened back then, we will have a clearer generaliized picture as to what WILL happen.

Yes, Daniel 11 was fully litteral to what COULD have happened. It gives us a generalized picture of what is going to litterally happen to us, but it is an analogy, not an exactness, that we are going to expirence. But we also look in these litteral events sympolic images that explain what is going on in a wider scale, such as the conflect between the Religious Right and secularists and are aware not to fully side with either side.

[ClubV12]

Kevin says,

"...litteral to what COULD have happened." You bring an interesting twist to the subject Kevin. I am a BIG fan and do some serious study myself on "what might have been". Gods original plan vs how He waits for man to make a decision then is "forced" to act accordingly. "Plan B".

Obviously God knows the future, but the ANGELIC host and the other worlds don't! THEY are watching the great controversy unfold, with baited breath, what WILL "man" do next? Obviously God has it all under control and the angelic host is watching to see how that will unfold as well!

Moses didn't have to kill the Egyptian and on and on. However, I have not applied this principle to Daniel 11, very interesting... All though, I'm not sure I buy the idea that it was literal in the sense of what "could have been, but..." I'll give that some thought.

But in keeping with your concept of, I will call it, "could have been" THIS is ONE HUGE reason I also believe Daniel 11 is literal, and something I was not going to bring up. But you've twisted my arm.

I believe it was Gods plan to return sometime between 1856 and the late 1880's, early 1890's. Just a ball park. The evidence that it was His plan to return "shortly after" 1844 is profound from the many quotes and writings of Ellen White. The pioneers accepted this concept as well. NOT as "He's returning soon" but as "He's returning in OUR lifetime". This is unprecedented in the bible. Even Paul recognized the Lord could not return in HIS lifetime, he KNEW certain signs were to be fulfilled before then. His counsel to the people was to "occupy", wait.

Not so with Ellen White. She identified people living in her life that would see Jesus return, they died. This was something the ANGEL told her directly (in vision). She was quoting the angel, not her words or opinion. Late 1800's she recognized that due to the insubordination of the Church we "would have to remain here" for awhile. It was then the Church entered the wilderness, we've been wandering ever since. Looking for signs, studying the prophecy, missing the boat. During the 40 years of wandering what record do we have of the people? NOTHING! Nothing happened, no signs, no just around the corner talk, they were to wander until most had died, period. THATS where WE have been! Looking for, preaching "signs", the only sign left HAS BEEN verse 45 for a hundred years!

So,,, as the Lord was SUPPOSED to come in the 1800's then it follows that ALL prophecy could have, should have been fulfilled in the 1800's. Thats why Uriah had it right, he WAS right! The Church was rignt on the edge of the promised land in Uriahs time. Since EVERY prophecy COULD have been fulfilled THEN, no interpretation today can hold water that could not have been fulfilled in the 1800's of that time.

The blessing of those who waited, were alive when the 1335 terminated in 1843 (yes, 1843)? There were supposed to see Jesus coming! They were robbed of that by our insubordination and rebellion.

IF Turkey sets up the Caliphate, THAT is consistent with an 1800's fulfillment. And many other details of the prophecy also begin to fall into place when viewed from that angle. Crimean War of '56, and Russia in the 1870's, we were RIGHT ON the edge of the promised land! Everything was set, could have, SHOULD have happened!

I am convinced Daniel 11 is literal, but I really like your take on the other side of the coin. Certainly worthy of further consideration.

[Kevin H]

One note: The signs that Paul saw needing to first happen was pointed out because the Thessalonians had heard that the Lord had already come. Paul still saw it as possible as occurring in his life time. One possible understanding of the book of Hebrews is an explanation as to why Jerusalem fell and the Lord did not return. And everything in Revelation can be applied to events that were happening at their time. The members who first heard Revelation did not go home shaking their heads saying "That was odd, I didn't understand it" nor did they go home saying "The Pope is coming and after that the United States" But there were things in their day that was happening connected to the theme of the book to "Preach again."

Have you read the article in the SDABC titled "The Role of Israel in Old Testament History"?

[ClubV12]

I dunno exactly what Paul knew and when he knew it. I suspect that he knew Daniels prophecy well enough to deduce that the Lord could NOT return for many centuries. Simply because the 1335, 1290 and 1260 time periods had to expire. I don't think he introduced those concepts to the early Church. It wasn't their time and they weren't ready (didn't need) to hear that.

He recognized "that man of sin" was already at work, I think he knew far more than he revealed. He, like Jesus, revealed that which was proper on a "need to know" basis.

[Kevin H]

The time cycles in Daniel are based on the interchange we find in, well specifically Deuteronomy, but we find them in a nice package in Leviticus. The only difference is that Deuteronomy does not have the Jubilee. So we basically have 6 days and a Sabbath, 6 months and Passover/Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year. Or simply days, months, years. Except for the specific 70 weeks of years prophecy, the 2300 evenings-mornings (which really focuses on the cyclic aspect) and 1335, 1209, and 1260 are all very much cyclic meaning it can be fulfilled in those different possibilities.

The original setting of the 2300 evenings-mornings was the year that had 2300 literal days to the fall of Babylon, which was telling the Jews that they had only a short time to fulfill the conditions of Deuteronomy 4 so that the exile could end with the second great exodus lead by the messiah.

Daniel 9-12 and Ezekiel ties the 70 weeks of years to the time for the Messiah to set up the kingdom. In Matthew 24 and the similar chapters in Luke and Mark gives the possibility for the second coming tied to the fall of Jerusalem. And Revelation ties it to the Domitian persecution. The Lord could indeed have come err this.

[ClubV12]

You know,,, I had no intention of opening the current topic, "what might have been"! It is a very interesting discussion and potentially worthy of a thread of it's own.

I've been considering the very things you've brought up here Kevin, but they can be SO controversial and so easily misunderstood I'm extemely careful who I discuss them with. Fanatics and zealots could have a field day with this stuff.

Among such considerations, DID Jesus have to die on the cross? "What if"... Israel had never sinned? Would He have been sacraficed in the same way a lamb was sacraficed in the temple? "What if...", Adam had never sinned. Or Lucifer.

The first words I usually hear are: "But the Father knew that wouldn't happen so it's all irrelevant." But I don't buy that. Number 1, of course the Father knew, but the angelic host didn't, the unfallen worlds didn't, they are sitting on the edge of their chair wondering what decision YOU will make next! Will it be to glorify God with a victory over sin? And the angels strike a higher note and sing praises. Or will you fall, again? And a hush came over the crowd...

However, in all this I keep coming back to ONE unique thing about 1844 or shortly thereafter. When Ellen White had the vision and an angel told her, "Some (among those gathered with her at the time) would be alive when Jesus comes. Some would die (food for worms) before then." This was a direct communication from an angel, as directed by the Father, to her that Jesus WOULD come in her lifetime. I find that unprecedented in the biblical record.

As I study these issues I find, "Could have...", "wanted too...", "maybe..." but I don't find anything that alludes to "It WILL happen in YOUR lifetime", like we see in the 1844-45 vision. I don't know what to make of that...

I'm still not sure what to make of the impact that has on Daniel 11, but for now, I take the position that Uriah Smith had it right, right up to verse 44. The Crimean war, in particular, ending in 1856 is a significant "way mark" in Daniel 11. I know of no other instance (war or whatever) that we can apply to Daniel 11 since 1856 that meets the particulars of fufilling the prophecy. Hence, Uriah Smith "nailed it", right up to verse 45. Where we stalled out and went into the wilderness, been there ever since.

It is not lost on me that Uriah Smiths book has been under enormous attack ever since!

[Kevin H]

Keep studying. And as you study the prophets and piece it appears that Jesus would have been killed in battle, but by his friends who thought that this kind person would not be able to lead out in battle. Have you read the chapter in the SDABC on "The Role of Israel in Old Testament History"? That article will clear up a lot of things and give references. That article gives the major overview, but you can make minor adjustments to apply it to the specific points in Biblical history. And you will see how Mrs. White's experience is based on the same principles.

[BobRyan]

The original setting of the 2300 evenings-mornings was the year that had 2300 literal days to the fall of Babylon,

Not possible since the Daniel 8 text explicitly tells us that the 2300 years starts with the Persians and includes the Greek empire and so also the division of Greece into 4 kingdoms. No guessing - it is all there in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

And everything in Revelation can be applied to events that were happening at their time.

Not possible since they knew that they were not living in a lake of fire, and they new they had not lived the 1000 years of Rev 20 and they knew they had not all be raised in the first resurrection, nor had they seen the Rev 19 second coming, nor had they seen the 1260 years of Rev 12 nor the rise of the great world empire of Rev 13 that would follow the persecution nor the sun darkened and the moon turned to blood as stated in Rev 6 ... quite a few events were future to their day and the people of 2Thess2 did not already have the book of Revelation in their hands so they did not know of those future events.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I keep looking at the map and Babylon is due east of Israel. East is where the wise men came from as well.

I'm not sure I'm buying into this idea of Babylon being the King of the North at any point in history, as it concerns the book of Daniel.

The Babylonians could only approach Israel from the North since there was no direct route to Israel from the East.

[BobRyan]

Uriah not giving much credence to Litch's work reminds of A.G. Daniels comments about the large bible Ellen White held up. He said, he didn't see her do that. He had never talked to anybody that saw her do that.

[BobRyan]

The book of Jeremiah is filled with references to Babylon coming from the North.

"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,” declares the Lord; “and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah." Jeremiah 1:15

“Lift up a standard toward Zion! Seek refuge, do not stand still, For I am bringing evil from the north, And great destruction. Jeremiah 4:6

The sound of a report! Behold, it comes— A great commotion out of the land of the north— To make the cities of Judah A desolation, a haunt of jackals. Jeremiah 10:22

...

“The daughter of Egypt has been put to shame, Given over to the power of the people of the north.” Jeremiah 46:24

(Egypt was also destroyed by Babylon)

Great point!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

One note: The signs that Paul saw needing to first happen was pointed out because the Thessalonians had heard that the Lord had already come. Paul still saw it as possible as occurring in his life time.

Paul said in 2Thess 2 that the day would not come until a great apostasy occurred - "the falling away" and the man of sin was revealed and then the great signs and wonders according to the work and power of Satan would follow.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Bob, I SO much appreciate your weighing in on these complex issues. One quick note on A.G. Daniels and the big bible. I like where A.G. was coming from with this. His view point, he didn't doubt it happened, he correctly pointed out, he didn't see it himself.

I OFTEN hear or read "reports" from various pioneers in the golden years about what they heard, saw, remember. Personally I weigh evidence like that as if I was in a court of law. Is it hearsay? Is it reliable? Have memories faded over the years? Regardless of whether it sounds reasonable and is consistent with other reports, and the truth, still it has to pass the tests. I see A.G. Daniels employing a similiar strategy. Sometimes I offend people because I don't get as enthusiastic as they are over such reports.

On Jeremiah, I'm still looking at what APPEARS to be a reference to Babylon. I understand how we come to that, the route traveled. Never the less, Babylon is due east of Israel. The four winds could well be compass points as determined from Greece. This doesn't impact our theology, I'm just a stickler for correct details.

90% of Adventists, if asked, would say Babylon is North of Israel, but it's not. The immediate question then becomes, "What else have they got wrong?". The Babylonians CAME FROM the North, they didn't LIVE in the North. Subtle but important important difference if your cross examining ME in a trial!

Now to chew on some of this new information... Truth can withstand the most severe analysis, I am confident in the pillars of our faith and not one pillar shall be moved.

Kevin asks about,

"The Role of Israel in Old Testament History"? I haven't read that Kevin, thanks for the tip. It's on my "to do" list.

[ClubV12]

Bob, do you think Paul was familiar with the 2,300 year prophecy and thus KNEW for sure, Christ could not return in his day? I suspect he was and he knew...

NOTE:

"Loughborough who INTERVIEWED those who witnessed the vision,"

I have no doubt Loughborough is a worthy witness, but I move to strike based on double or even triple hearsay by the time we get to A.G. Daniels!

There is certainly other sufficient evidence to support the prophetic gift of Ellen White (as A.G. pointed out).

"bringing evil from the north..." is not saying Babylon is North of Israel or that is where the people live.

[Kevin H]

Bob, while what you pointed out is correct, had God's people been faithful in preaching the gospel into all the world the events could have happened in a very short time. The long drawing out is God carrying out the same principles but over a longer time due to our response. Greece could have been a world power long before Alexander. The conditions were right, but God was slowing it down due to our slowness. The original setting of Daniel 8:14 was the year that had 2300 literal days before the fall of Babylon. Daniel 9 reapplies them to the 70 weeks of years prophecy, and Ezekiel 38 and 39 tells what would have happened during the end of the 70 weeks of years had Jesus been accepted, and if you add up the time references in those chapters they come out to 2310 days and if you subtract the 10 days from the fall new year to Yom Kipper, you have a 2300 day prophecy.

However God was very adamant that he wanted us to know that he was working with cyclic thought, and that the 2300 evenings-mornings could be 2300 days, 2300 half years or 2300 full years. A oneness of his divine over all power, yet his working with our free will and choices.

[Gail]

The North in the Bible represents God or someone in the place of God (antichrist) coming from a more religious perspective. South is Egypt and represents secularism. East represents the Messiah, as was Cyrus coming from the east to deliver the Hebrews from Babylon.

Now there are two levels of Bible Study. First is the immediate context and how God could have fulfilled the prophecies and set up the kingdom back then. Daniel 1-8 tells how the Exile could have been the last days ending with the a second great exodus lead by the messiah. Daniel 9-12(and Ezekiel) tell the story of what could have happened had Jesus been accepted. The second level is how to apply it to us and the last days.

Sadly, we tend to only want to study the Bible on the second level. Many of our applications will be excellent, some pretty good but others pretty poor. We need to improve by taking time to study on the first level. then we will have a stronger foundation for the second.

Thanks for your wisdom on this, Kevin Like most everything I have studied from the Bible the topics surprise us by getting bigger and better the further along we go.

I especially have held to what you say in the first paragraph regarding eschatalogical sense of Daniel. The historical part (first level) I am not quite knowledgeable on, but whenever I go through an OT book I gain more.

I have a feeling that a study on Ezekiel, Isaiah or Jeremiah might be in order. But first I need to finish the book I'm reading on the seventh day, "The Lost Meaning of the Seventh Day." I am more than 1/2 way through that.

ClubV12, I am REALLY enjoying your sharing what you are finding! This is a really GREAT thread!

[joeb]

The book of Jeremiah is filled with references to Babylon coming from the North.

"For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,” declares the Lord; “and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah." Jeremiah 1:15

“Lift up a standard toward Zion! Seek refuge, do not stand still, For I am bringing evil from the north, And great destruction. Jeremiah 4:6

The sound of a report! Behold, it comes— A great commotion out of the land of the north— To make the cities of Judah A desolation, a haunt of jackals. Jeremiah 10:22

behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Jeremiah 25:9

“Egypt is a pretty heifer, But a horsefly is coming from the north—it is coming! Jeremiah 46:20

“The daughter of Egypt has been put to shame, Given over to the power of the people of the north.” Jeremiah 46:24

(Egypt was also destroyed by Babylon)

In response to this I'd first like to say something about ClubV12's point about Daniel being an unsealed book and that it can/could be understood by the average reader who dug into it. That means, to me, that something an average Hebrew reader of Daniel or Jeremiah might have easily picked up on that a reader of an English translation might very well miss.

This goes back to the Hebrew word translated as north in many instances. In every instance of the examples given from Jeremiah he used that word. Thus a native Hebrew reader might well have read every instance given of evil, commotion, and power as coming from the dark, i.e. the power of darkness rather than from the literal north. This very well might not naturally occur to an English translator.

[ClubV12]

A point for consideration Joeb, BECAUSE, something doesn't smell right about Babylon being reckoned as North from Israel. I don't necessarily buy into the "travel route" thinking on that.

“All assumptions and pre-conceived opinions are to be thoroughly tested by the standard of truth.” 1888 46.2

WHY do we have to take a compass bearing FROM Israel? WHERE we take the compass bearing is something we have always "assumed" as being from Israel. Why?

Daniel was IN Babylon when he had the vision(s). Another way to look at it is GREECE is a much more likely location to take a compass reading.

Something missing, something doesn't feel right with the way we've been reckoning this thing for a hundred years...

NOT trying to move any pillars, trying to understand them and let them harden like concrete. I need a reason for my faith.

[joeb]

A point for consideration Joeb, BECAUSE, something doesn't smell right about Babylon being reckoned as North from Israel. I don't necessarily buy into the "travel route" thinking on that.

“All assumptions and pre-conceived opinions are to be thoroughly tested by the standard of truth.” 1888 46.2

WHY do we have to take a compass bearing FROM Israel? WHERE we take the compass bearing is something we have always "assumed" as being from Israel. Why?

Daniel was IN Babylon when he had the vision(s). Another way to look at it is GREECE is a much more likely location to take a compass reading.

Something missing, something doesn't feel right with the way we've been reckoning this thing for a hundred years...

NOT trying to move any pillars, trying to understand them and let them harden like concrete. I need a reason for my faith.

To me the tsaphown line of thinking makes sense, more sense than the travel route theory, but who am I? I'm certainly no expert in Hebrew or Biblical prophecy. Bigger brains than mine have worked on this.

[ClubV12]

Well WHO am I, as well! You've probably been an Adventist longer than me. I got no formal training in theology (unless you count Sabbath School). IF Daniel IS an open book, then it follows it was written just for us, Joeb. You and me, just a couple of guys reading the book.

WHERE is the bible verse that sets Israel as the compass point? Where is the SOP quote that sets it? What did Ellen White have to say on it? It is not likely she would correct the pioneers in their ASSUMPTION it was Israel because she all about being in unity. AND she never introduced NEW theory, only confirmed or denied on going bible study. Back to the bible she said, figure it out, she said. Maybe, they never even looked for a reason, just moved on assumption?

Please, I am NOT trying to stir up trouble or be stubborn, seriously, I ask these things with a humble, teachable spirit and a longing to be in harmony with my brethren.

[BobRyan]

Bob, do you think Paul was familiar with the 2,300 year prophecy and thus KNEW for sure, Christ could not return in his day? I suspect he was and he knew...

Daniel was told to seal up the book and it does does not appear that the 2300 day prophecy was unsealed until the 19th century.

I think the NT saints were hoping for a 2nd coming event in their lifetime or withing a few short generations.

But personal expectations of the individual never mislead God into giving them a wrong message about the end of time.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Joeb, it looks to me like the most frequent translation is a direction, North, as a point on the compass.

Total KJV Occurrences: 153

north, 128

I'm still considering Daniel 11:4 and trying to fit Greece into this picture in some way. If it fits, it fits, if it doesn't, OK then!

Dan 11:5, the King of the South will become very strong. If the compass point is Greece, who is SOUTH of Greece (would be the question).

[ClubV12]

Alexander the Great, his kingdom then encompassed virtually the entire known world. His kingdom was scattered to the four winds. His "HQ", Greece. Logic says, the compass point would be from his HQ. In this geographic scale Israel isn't even a blip on the radar!

Now considering only North and South here, because east and west are ignored in the prophecy.

Israel lay in the middle of this vast kingdom divided North and South, the scale being the "whole world". IF the compass point is calculated from Alexanders HQ, at what point does it shift to Israel? Does it EVER shift to Israel at all? IF not, AD 34, stoning of Stephen, the North/South compass point would never shift then either. The compass point was was never about the Jews in the first place. It was always about Greece.

Daniel 8 speaks of the four winds, we see it again in Daniel 11. A compass point from Greece retains the pillars and fundamentals of our belief. In fact it clairifies some disconcerting issues and firms up the foundation.

Rome is North of Greece,,, just sayin'