Babylon is EAST!

[ClubV12]

Once Israel ceased to exist, we lost our compass bearing.

We changed North and South into symbols and applied various meanings to them. I don't see Daniel doing that, when he said North, that is exactly what he meant. Right down to the "toes", the ten toes. He was speaking, literally, on a world wide scale to the end of time.

[Windsor]

In this geographic scale Israel isn't even a blip on the radar!

Israel has always been nothing more than a blip on the radar, yet everything in the Bible relates to either literal Israel or spiritual Israel. Hence, the Bible does not mention China, despite being a major power in Bible times, because they had no contact with the Israelites. Neither do we hear about the Amerindians or the Aborigines though they may have dominated their respective continents.

[joeb]

Joeb, it looks to me like the most frequent translation is a direction, North, as a point on the compass.

Total KJV Occurrences: 153

north, 128

I'm still considering Daniel 11:4 and trying to fit Greece into this picture in some way. If it fits, it fits, if it doesn't, OK then!

Dan 11:5, the King of the South will become very strong. If the compass point is Greece, who is SOUTH of Greece (would be the question).

I know that is how tsaphown most often translated, but its literal meaning is different. The direction idea comes from the idea that the north is dark and gloomy. How that idea came into being from people who had never been anywhere near the artic circle is a cypher to me.

[ClubV12]

I think it is a fitting definition Joeb, I like it. The power that would eventually come from the North, the Papacy, fits that description well.

However, I find more and more and see in this particular study, that Daniel even when clearly using symbols is incredibly literal. His message is WAY bigger than Israel, it encompasses world history. It is in THIS respect that Israel isn't even a blip on the radar. Daniel is looking at a much bigger picture, all the way down to the end of time. Well after the Jewish Nation ceased to have any meaning in the spiritual realm.

Consider Daniels symbols, lions, bears, statues, etc. They represent LITERALLY, nations, peoples, kings. They are not mysterious, they are real. In Daniel 11 he puts the symbolism aside and gives up the straight talk. Once again, real nations, peoples and kings or king (singular). And one must be careful to note where Kings is plural and where it is singular. Why? Because Daniel is being very, very literal.

There is a place for symbolism, Revelation is a good example. Daniel, not so much, chapter 11, not at all.

What IF, north is really north and south is really south AFTER AD34, Stephens stoning. What changes as it concerns Adventist doctrine and theology? Nothing really, but heres the point, it reinforces the idea of a LITERAL reading of Daniel! It stops a lot of "conspiracy theory" about the Pope. It just makes a LOT of sense! Simpler, easier to understand, the mystery is removed.

We don't hear about Aboriginies, but we sure about GREECE in Daniel!

[joeb]

I think it is a fitting definition Joeb, I like it. The power that would eventually come from the North, the Papacy, fits that description well.

Well, that description also fits Babylon. Both the Papacy and Babylon are one, spiritually speaking.

[ClubV12]

"With intense interest he studied the books of Daniel and the Revelation, employing the same principles of interpretation as in the other scriptures, and found, to his great joy, that the prophetic symbols could be understood. He saw that the prophecies, so far as they had been fulfilled, had been fulfilled literally; that all the various figures, metaphors, parables, similitudes, etc., were either explained in their immediate connection, or the terms in which they were expressed were defined in other scriptures, and when thus explained, were to be literally understood." GC 320

Father Millers rule:

"Taking the manner in which the prophecies had been fulfilled in the past as a criterion by which to judge of the fulfillment of those which were still future..." GC 321

Literal Joeb, Daniel is absolutely literal.

In the opening verses of Daniel 11 we have Alexander, who basically ruled the world. Babylon would become HUGE, encompassing a vast area including Egypt to the South and as far North as Greece. Note that Israel is not referred to with a compass point, it's called the "pleasant land". In short, Israel cannot be the point of referrence for the compass. And that compass point remains fixed for the rest of the prophecy.

Both North and South today are controlled by Islamic nations. Turkey to the North, Egypt to the South. Whoever fits into Daniel 11:40-45 will be a literal Nation, a literal King, with a literal military force that comes in, takes command, is defeated and no one comes to his aid (verse 45). A real war, not some spiritual war. This one has guns, ships, bullets and bodies.