Spiritual Formation has too many definitions to condemn it...

[ClubV12]

I really like where Stan is going with this.

Who ARE these nebulous, even mysterious, people and Churches doing this?

Short, specific answers. What we have mostly are "rumor and gossip".

Not only Gibs, but the question could be put to several others as well, in various threads.

[Ted Oplinger]

GIBS, please tell me specifically, with names, on Adventist doing this.

I suspect, Stan, that the names list requested - if it surfaces at all - will be curiously short. Whatever name appears on that list will likely be long on rumor and innuendo, and short on the Biblical requirement for true evidence.

Blessings,

[Stan]

I REMEMBER when I joined the Church, the rumourmongers and discouragers (before the internet) stated that entire conferences were promoting speaking in tongues and that entire churches had fallen etc etc.

There are a few individuals who do that, but they are few and far between.

They need to STOP MISLEADING and discouraging people over a lie.

[Ted Oplinger]

I REMEMBER when I joined the Church, the rumourmongers and discouragers (before the internet) stated that entire conferences were promoting speaking in tongues and that entire churches had fallen etc etc.

There are a few individuals who do that, but they are few and far between.

They need to STOP MISLEADING and discouraging people over a lie.

I remember the "Celebration Church" hyperbole some 15-20 years ago - how it was taking over churches by storm.

The number of congregations with the issue was way overstated, when all things were considered.

It did not stop the rumor mills from churning non-stop, providing endless "entertainment" for those of us as elders having to deal with those rumors and innuendos propagating through.

Blessings,

[Stan]

There was one guy, some radio personality, filmed a pentacostal Church and treated it as an adventist Church.

Very discouraging for some many saints, some left..

What was his name Mark or John Osborn?

[Gail]

The thing that I despise about these kind of diversions that come up, is:

It wastes our time focusing on them (which I'm sure makes the evil one pleased because it takes our time from praising God for what He DOES do for us)

This spiritual formation is taking focus away from the spiritual disciplines as outlined in the Bible. If you read the Bible and try to see the big picture, you will know how to pray, how to study, how Biblical meditation goes, etc. We as Christians may be at fault here for not emphasizing the true enough.

These topics, if focused on and believed on the word of hearsay (I am one of those who does not actually KNOW anyone who does these practises), it causes us to mistrust our leadership and our brothers and sisters. Is that what God wants from us, to carry a spirit of mistrust and doubt?

That is why, I am aware, but not partaking, of the practise OR of the rumours, warnings, accusations, etc. How much of this do I really need? How much do we church members need? We need to move ahead, not go sideways.

[joeb]

The thing that I despise about these kind of diversions that come up, is:

It wastes our time focusing on them (which I'm sure makes the evil one pleased because it takes our time from praising God for what He DOES do for us)

This spiritual formation is taking focus away from the spiritual disciplines as outlined in the Bible. If you read the Bible and try to see the big picture, you will know how to pray, how to study, how Biblical meditation goes, etc. We as Christians may be at fault here for not emphasizing the true enough.

These topics, if focused on and believed on the word of hearsay (I am one of those who does not actually KNOW anyone who does these practises), it causes us to mistrust our leadership and our brothers and sisters. Is that what God wants from us, to carry a spirit of mistrust and doubt?

That is why, I am aware, but not partaking, of the practise OR of the rumours, warnings, accusations, etc. How much of this do I really need? How much do we church members need? We need to move ahead, not go sideways.

You're correct Gail. These issues come up all the time and they are distractions put up by the devil himself. He loves to see us argue over anything rather than see us pressing together to do what God has asked us to do.

This is one of his favorite ways of getting us to take our eyes off of Christ, because if we're looking at each other, distrusting one another, we certainly aren't looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, and we're not doing anything positive for Christ because of it.

[olger]

There was one guy, some radio personality, filmed a pentacostal Church and treated it as an adventist Church.

Very discouraging for some many saints, some left..

What was his name Mark or John Osborn?

John, maybe?

[Stan]

think that was him...

Rumourmonger, and I met people that gave their retirement fund to him, so he could finish the work.

Victims.

Convincing to so many people.

[olger]

I'm not a fan of sensationalism whether it be Hal Lindsay or John Osborne.

[olger]

Many of the leading voices in the spiritual formation movement stress the need for more intuitive interpretations of spirituality. They encourage believers to incorporate a wide variety of extrabiblical spiritual practices, such as contemplative prayer, silence, meditation, creative expression, and yoga. In fact, some of the most popular methods of spiritual formation have been lifted from Catholicism, new age mysticism, or other religions and rebranded with biblical-sounding terminology.

But any kind of subjective spirituality that draws your focus away from the Lord and His truth can have disastrous results, derailing your spiritual growth and cutting you off from God’s plan for your sanctification.

[Stan]

>>>But any kind of subjective spirituality that draws your focus away from the Lord and His truth can have disastrous results, derailing your spiritual growth and cutting you off from God’s plan for your sanctification.

If you read the chapter in the Adventist Manual for Ministers, re Spiritual Formation, it is chapter 2, it is specifically opposite to that.

One person compared it do Methodism, they were outcast from the Anglicans in England because they had specific things they should do to increase their knowledge of the word, how much to read out of the bible, and other specific things for their own Spiritual growth. I really do not know all details on why they were formed, it seemed like their Methods to become Methodist was an early version of spiritual formation, generally things we agree with.

Would be interested in your valuation of the Manual for Ministers... wonder if it is available online? ANYONE know?

[Gibs]

Didn't J Osborn Capitulate and get back in the good graces of the denomination and is now a supporter.

As far as I can see he ended up doing more for the church than his friends whom he destroyed the purpose of which they started.

He was their Judas.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[debbym]

Quote:

One person compared it do Methodism, they were outcast from the Anglicans in England because they had specific things they should do to increase their knowledge of the word, how much to read out of the bible, and other specific things for their own Spiritual growth. I really do not know all details on why they were formed, it seemed like their Methods to become Methodist was an early version of spiritual formation, generally things we agree with.

religions of all kinds have within them spiritual experiences, altered states of consciousness, and various levels of hypnotic trance.

glossolalia is not confined the charismatic christians for example.

my son met a professor in college who traveled the world studying and researching subjective spiritual phenomena. The teachers conclusion was that Christianity is of the identical nature as every other religion of the world. The same spiritual energy was in them all.

This teacher did not research the experience of the Holy Spirit as described in the Steps to Christ because it was just not phenomenal.

The non Christian practice of Glossolalia for example. from wiki

"Other religious groups have been observed to practice some form of theopneustic glossolalia. It is perhaps most commonly in Paganism, Shamanism, and other mediumistic religious practices.[52] In Japan, the God Light Association used to practice glossolalia to cause adherents to recall past lives.[53]

Glossolalia has even been postulated as an explanation for the Voynich manuscript.[54]

Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as "t t t t n n n n d d d d d..." etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia. The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians also features a hymn of (mostly) unintelligible syllables which is thought to be an early example of Christian glossolalia.[citation needed]

In the 19th century, Spiritism was developed by the work of Allan Kardec, and the phenomenon was seen as one of the self-evident manifestations of spirits. Spiritists argued that some cases were actually cases of xenoglossia.

Glossolalia has also been observed in the Voodoo religion of Haiti,[55] as well as in the Hindu Gurus and Fakirs of India

Glossolalia has also been studied by Neuro scientist. from wiki

"Neuroscience

In 2006, the brains of a group of individuals were scanned while they were speaking in tongues. Activity in the language centers of the brain decreased, while activity in the emotional centers of the brain increased. Activity in the area of control decreased. There were no changes in any language areas, suggesting that glossolalia is not associated with usual language function.[58][59][60] One of the researchers, Andrew Newberg, said: "It's fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak." The data demonstrated that subject's usual language centres were not activated as they spoke in tongues, which suggests that a different region of the brain is responsible for this activity.[61][62][63] Other brain wave studies have also found that brain activity alters in glossolalia.[64]"

as for Christian Mysticism from wiki

The idea of mystical realities has been widely held in Christianity since the second century AD, referring not simply to spiritual practices, but also to the belief that their rituals and even their scriptures have hidden ("mystical") meanings.

McGinn raises several points about his choice of words: He argues that "presence" is more accurate than "union", since not all mystics spoke of union with God, and since many visions, miracles, etc., were not necessarily related to union. He also argues that we should speak of "consciousness" of God's presence, rather than of "experience", since mystical activity is not simply about the sensation of God as an external object, but more broadly about "new ways of knowing and loving based on states of awareness in which God becomes present in our inner acts". Related to this idea is his emphasis on the transformation that occurs through mystical activity: "This is why the only test that Christianity has known for determining the authenticity of a mystic and her or his message has been that of personal transformation, both on the mystic's part and—especially—on the part of those whom the mystic has affected."

Another consideration to be made is that mystical experience is not simply a matter between the mystic and God, but is often shaped by cultural issues. For instance, Carolyn Walker Bynum has shown how, in the late Middle Ages, miracles attending the taking of the eucharist were not simply symbolic of the Passion story, but served as vindication of the mystics' theological orthodoxy by proving that the mystic had not fallen prey to heretical ideas, such as the Cathar rejection of the material world as evil, contrary to orthodox teaching that God took on human flesh and remained sinless.[2] Thus, the nature of mystical experience could be tailored to the particular cultural and theological issues of the time.

These mystical phenomena are tied to the emotions the ego, the subjective experience, not to the word of God. If a person was substantially transformed and then able to live higher in a transcendent state this was proof of their spiritual achievement. This is without regard to what teaching they believed. It is the accomplishment of living in this higher state, not living by the word of God.

This new light is coming to the adventist church as a marvelous experience and what we have been missing. It satisfies the longing for a closer walk with God. but sop and scripture says, draw near to God and he will draw nearer to you. How? By confession and repentance. It is sin that hinders our closeness to God, not a disciplined state of mind.

This ancient and contemporary mysticism has little to say about sin, and the character of God and the Sabbath. This comes from sources that are seeking and experiencing spirituality without obedience to the word of God. These are the churches that are described as fallen. Is this to be our source?

[Textus Receptus]

I have an opinion about speaking in tongues. Obviously, the practice is contra to scripture and as Deb noted, it is gainig acceptance within the SDA. Now, I speak from some authority since my wife was in a tongue speaking church who by the grace of God found truth in the SDA Church. She speaks of her experiences as being demonic. She can say this with confidence since tongue speaking did not lead her to Christ but only the false sense of self-fulfillment and personal gratification coupled by violent body reactions which mimic nothing less that of possession. Moreover, she noted that those who participated led them to harshely judge others who did not practice as false christians and labeled them as members of a 'dead' church.

Now, in understanding that speaking in tongues is not unique to 'Chrisianity' and is now not confined only to charismatic and pentecostal churches; catholics and even lutherans are begining to engage in this practice and are even encouraging it. I even have seen just recently a Lutheran service in my area where the pastor was recanting his speaking in tongues experience!

Recently, my great grandmother fell asleep (death), and while my mother (who's been a member of the SDA church since 1970), and a few members of her family that are cathoic, were at her beside waiting for her to give up her spirit, my great aunt who is uber Catholic began to speak in tongues. My mother understanding that this was a ploy by Lucifer, she began to pray silently for God to send His Holy spirit to rebuke this demonic occurance. At the moment my mother finished her prayer, the tongues stopped abruptly.

When my mother told me this story, I started to remember what my wife stated about sentiments of those who engage in this practice towards those who do not- that they belong to a 'dead church'. Speaking in tongues is becoming a common denominator for these groups. It is away to unifiy them and providing them all the impression that they all are in communion with little differences; its a powerful ecumenical force -- I mean, how can they all be wrong? right?

For instance, if they are all speaking in tongues, then, what they are suggesting is that they are all praying to the same god. All except one church, the lonesome, pitiful and dead SDA church. Boy, Lucifer is playing a number on folks. I am proud that my church is 'dead'.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as "t t t t n n n n d d d d d..." etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia.

Quote:

These mystical phenomena are tied to the emotions the ego, the subjective experience, not to the word of God. If a person was substantially transformed and then able to live higher in a transcendent state this was proof of their spiritual achievement. This is without regard to what teaching they believed. It is the accomplishment of living in this higher state, not living by the word of God.

I can tell you from personal experience that a prayer language is much more than random grunts and groans (at least mine and others in our church is). It is a very rich language - many words using a lot of vowels and soft consonants. For example (for lack of a better spelling), one phrase that comes up in my prayers of thanksgiving is "abakasa patae"; which I interpret to mean "Thank you, Father". Not that I am sure. Another word that comes up (it's not in my vovavulary is pronounced "show" or "shoe" (depending on the speaker). Another thing - most of the charismatic churches that I am familiar with strongly discourage or outright prohibit the use of prayer languages in public worship unless there is someone there who can interpret.

I find it sad that people with little or no experience with prayer language find it so easy to criticize. My personal testimony is that I find it very edifying (admittedly self-edifing - not necesarrily edifying for those who might be listening).

Speaking in tongues (or unknown languages as some translations call it)is a spiritual gift. By it's very definition, a "gift" is something that is undeserved, given at the whim of the giver (Giver in this case). It is not a reward, which is given as compensation for "works".

[ClubV12]

While I remain skeptical of this report and experience, I appreciate your insight JoeMo. I consider this an important topic because we have some evidence in the very early formation of the Seventh-day Adventist Church of three, possibly four, incidents of speaking in tongues in an unknown language. Where James and Ellen White were present, they witnessed it, they did not partake of it. Hiram Edson also saw this. The history is sketchy as to the details and what it all meant and Ellen White never spoke of it herself at that time or the rest of her life. But she did not outright reject it either!

Hiram Edson also witnessed at least two of these events. In some cases a brother spoke, another interpreted. In another case it is unclear if any interpretation was offered and if so, who offered it. One incident, perhaps the best known, involved the time to begin worship on the Sabbath. At sundown or by the clock, 6 am, 6 pm. When I offered my take on that incident I was met with much derision and even chastised for mentioning it!

I have considered these events carefully and have drawn some conclusions. But am hesitant to even mention or talk about them with fellow believers. I have seen it result in significant disruption and controversy. Yet, it remains, a part of our history. Like that weird Uncle in the family nobody likes to talk about, but he's always there at the family reunion.

[Gail]

I am wondering if these manifestations are relative to where the member formerly attended. For instance- those of Methodists, where EGW's family originated, could have been "slain in the spirit", that these experiences were somehow a carry-over.

Any thoughts on this?

[ClubV12]

I do see where your going with that Gail and there is some validity to it in some cases.

In these cases of tongues, I don't think it applies. In each incident there was a specific purpose and it brought about specific results. They had a purpose, it wasn't just worship or praise, there were issues that needed answers or resolution.

For instance, what time to begin the Sabbath, was the question being discussed. The answer SEEM to come via a display of tongues in an entirely unknown language. Here's the problem with that incident: The interpretation of the tongues indicated the time should be based on the clock, 6 am to 6 pm! It would some five years later before Ellen White had a vision correcting that. It is not lost on me that just PRIOR to that vision James White, who had always been troubled by the "clock" method, comissioned Brother Andrews (Andrews University) to do an exhaustive study and provide a report on the subject for the brethren to consider. Thus, no light, no confirming vision, UNTIL the pioneers got serious about going to the bible and figuring it out for themselves! Something they had never done before, they were looking for a quick, easy answer, maybe a vision or some divine "thing" RATHER THAN doing the hard work of digging into the word. And they were given just what they wanted... by whom? One may ask... I don't know!

But there is a lesson here either way.

[BobRyan]

GIBS, please tell me specifically, with names, on Adventist doing this.