Lets Talk About Meat

July 30, 2005

OK most periods of my life I have been vegetarian for a mixture of religious and health reasons. Recently I even spent time reading Counsels on Diet and Food, Back to Eden, The Maker's Diet and You are what you eat.

Now whilst I admit that a reduced flesh diet is healthy to the body I am not in any way convinced of the superiority of a vegetarian diet to that of a meat one, especially where the food is organic or treated as biblically mandated. Something which has kept members of the Jewish diaspora healthy through many plagues and outbreaks over the last few millenia.

In my limited research over the years I believe that a non synthetic (supplemented) diet can be maintained with the inclusion of flesh. For a healthy balance of proteins, vitamins (A and B12) and minerals, this in no way contradicts the provision God has made for man in the fallen world.

So is there anyone out there who could convince me otherwise?

July 30, 2005

If you have read, "Counsels on Diet and Food, Back to Eden, The Maker's Diet and You are what you eat" and are still not convinced, is it safe to say you don't want to be convinced?

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I am not in any way convinced of the superiority of a vegetarian diet to that of a meat one, especially where the food is organic or treated as biblically mandated.

That is a mouth-full. About the only meat that meets the Biblically mandate not to eat blood or fat is kosher meat. I believe fish is the exception to that. So that would mean no meat out of the supermarket, no meat in restrauants, not hotdogs at the ballgame no KFC.

July 31, 2005

Thankyou for taking the bait.

Two of those books do advocate meat in the diet while two exclude it.

So let's talk about kosher meat. How is it that Jews have managed to, and many Mediterranans countries, maintain a healthy lifestyle where the fish and meat have been prepared as according to the Levitical mandate, without the need for any supplement to their diets.

(For the record I dont need any convincing, it's just my style of dialogue on the forum, for those who dont know )

July 31, 2005

From what I have read, which is subject to error, the most unhealthy parts of meat are the blood and fat. I believe the best way to drain blood from an animal is to cut its throut and hang it upside down. If it can be done when the animal is still alive (like a chicken), a lot of blood will be pumped out of it quickly and it can than be hung upside down to drain even more. The animal can then be butchered and the meat soaked in a salt water solution which will draw out even more blood. Obviously the fat between the tissue itself cannot be removed. The excessive fat can be cut away and disgarded. The skin of the chicken is an example of such fatty tissue that can be disgarded.

I do not know what Jews do to fish to make it kosher other than religious rituals such as blessings. Biblically I do not see any command other than no fat and no blood. The restriction against blood is repeated in the New Testement for those Christians that do not believe the Old Testement is still binding.

July 31, 2005

dgrimm60

Does that apply to the processed foods as well,i.e. mock duck, sausages,etc and isnt goats milk better for you than soy?

July 31, 2005

Vitamins in most vege-meat foods are there by enrichment. So taking vitamin supplements would be simular.

I have not seen any studies on goat's milk. Soy is an excellent food in its many forms. It is rich in protien and antioxigens. Soy milk does have vitamins but most of them are enriched. When we switched over to soy milk my wife lost ten pounds and although I don't have high blood preasure, it did drop about 5 points.

August 1, 2005

Couple of points:

Soy does contain antioxygens and proteins and is best and most effective when fermented as is popular for those who have long lives in the far east. Tofu and soy milk therefore only have the added benefit if they come from fermented soy.

The assumption that there is animal disease in goat's milk is a bit spurious isn't it. It is actually the most popular form of milk in the Mediterranean and has sustained many cultures as part of a healthy diet. The process by which goat's milk is procured and delivered is also different to cow's and depending on the country, many food agencies have strict demands as to how it should be delivered. As a natural unsupplimented resource it provides selenium, capyrlic fatty acids and is recommended to people (apart from extreme cases) who are lactose intolerant as it is much easier to digest than cow's milk. The only suppliment that is ever added to goats milk is folic acid but any diet with leafy green vegetables and dried beans can provide the natural suppliment that is needed.

August 1, 2005

So coming back to meat and fish then. Apart from people's concerns with disease which can be dealt with by applying the Levitical/Noahide principles, what is the problem with consuming meat and fish as part of your diet.

If it was good enough for Israel, who didnt even have refrigeration and other sanitation methods we take for granted, why dont people appreciate the fact that an omnivourous diet can provide all the vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats and carbohyrdrates naturally without the need for fortifying and enriching processes and suppliments?

August 1, 2005

Part of the answer is that meat is not the best food. Vitamins obtained from meat eating are second-hand. Suplementing the diet with either cow/goat milk or vitamin enriched foods will provide those hard-to-get vitamins without any of the liabilities of meat. Another part of the answer is that few areas of the world have meat available that comply with Levitical/Noahide principles. Fish perhaps is the exception.

The other part has to do with the sanctuary service and the period of time that we live in. We live in the typical Day of Atonement and vegetarianism is a type of fast. This gets into the spiritual reasons behind abstaining from meat. It is much like the Catholics not eating meat on Friday during lent. Many Adventists abstain from meat because we live during the typical Day of Atonement. The world is being judged and we are waiting for the soon return of our Lord.

August 1, 2005

Shane could you source for me the following

1) Why meat is not the "best food". Compared to what?

2) What specific liabilites of meat do supplements cater for?

3) What evidence do you have that few areas of the world comply with Levitical/Noahide preparation of meats?

4) On what biblical premise do you associate meat eating and the Day of Atonement? Wasnt the day of atonement one of actual fasting?

August 1, 2005

Dgrimm60,

the instances of avian influenza and bovine spongiform encephalopathy in chicken and cows refer mainly to the preparation and treatment of such animals. Any careful research into how the bird flu spread in Hong Kong etc determined that it was spread as a hygiene issue for those who rared poultry as well as those who consumed it, and mad cow disease came about because they were being fed animal feed instead of the herbivorous diet that they designed to have. Hence the careful selection of organic meats critical to an omnivorous diet, even if it does cost more.

Would we be as alarmist with genetically modified seedless grapes or with the poisoning of fruit and vegetables through herbicides, fungii and phytoplasms.

Our physiology has changed since the fall. In the original design it was not our remit to toil the land. And since the flood the divine remit was given to allow the entrance of animal protein into the diet to aid in the digestive process. So much so that meat consumption along with vegetables was muchh a part of the Hebrew cultural system, through ceremony and in general. It is also noted that herbivores in the animal kingdom have flat teeth and stomach designed to process only vegetation. Carnivores meanwhile have shorter digestive systems, sharper teeth and more hydrochloric acid to digest their meat dominant diets. Whilst omnivores have a combination of both so that the sufficient proteins, vitamins and minerals can be digested. So much so that certain proteins and vitamins are a substantial part of a well balanced diet. A simple look at the diets of mediterranean and primitive cultures such as the Kitavans in Papua New Guinea, Inuits in Canada and Alaska, Gaelic communities in the UK, native Americans in north Ameriaca, Aborigines, certain african tribes, melanesian and polynesian tribes and Japanese cultures show that the unsupplimented diets of foraged organic food and animal products prepared and treated as per the Levitical instructions sustained societies devoid of certain instances of cancer, diabetes, bone deformities, blood disorders and the like.

So by all means, whilst a new heaven and a new earth beckons for a new diet, it cannot go unnnoticed that many cultures still follow such guidelines and do not get caught up in the disease and dysfunctions caused by mass produced unorganic and over processed meats and agricultural produce. By following the remit that we have given, and I suppose the argument will rage on regardless, then as natural and unsynthetic a diet is supported both by biblical guidelines and in nature to be in favour of omnivores.

August 1, 2005

Dgrimm60, I do buy kosher meats but when I go out I tend to eat a vegetarian meal or preferably organic meats!! My wife and I have been buying a lot more organic as well. still learning.

Be careful with your soy intake as well, and make sure it is fermented soy products that you are consuming.

My health has improved a lot since I gave more attention to what I eat and how it is prepared (including many of our vegetarian supplements) and I will keep you posted on my health.

Not sure what you meant with your last point about salvation. I see my diet as part of my whole being so maybe you could clarify.

August 1, 2005

Brother McQueen, the material I have is published in Spanish. It is composed of three volumes written by Dr. Jorge D. Pamplona Roger of Spain. He is a general surgen and a specialist in the digestive system. It is published by Gráficas Mar-Car, S.A., Ulises 95, 28043 Madrid, Spain. I have the first edition dated April 1999. I purchased the set from an Adventist colpourter although I do not know if the publisher is Adventist or not.

Meat is known to be a common source of heart disease, cancer, high blood preasure and obessity. The lack of fiber in meat also is known to cause intestinal problems. All of this is common knowledge which I suspect you already know. So I don't want to spend much time discussing things we both know and most lurkers know as well.

Perhaps in a city like London or New York finding meat that complies with Levitical/Noahide standards is quite easy. Once you move away from areas with a heavy Jewish population such meat becomes increasingly difficult to find. I did a google search on kosher in Spanish and found that many Jews living in Latin American countries must live as either vegetarians or eat non-kosher meat.

Obviously we cannot literally fast until Jesus comes. We would all die. So many Adventists fast in the same way that many Catholics do on Friday during lent. Or as Daniel did, "I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth" For those of us that choose to do that, vegetarianism has a deeper spiritual meaning than just being a healthier lifestyle. There is no Biblical obligation to fast in this way. However the Bible gives us plenty of examples of fasting during times of consecration to the Lord. For many of us living in the final days of Earth's history, every day is lived in such consecration.

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And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. (Lev. 16:29-31)

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Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

(Lev. 23:27)

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And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein (Num. 29:7)

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Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? (Isaiah 58:5)

August 2, 2005

Curious as to how it was that the Jews felt that the height of righteous living was to dwell in a land flowing with milk and honey (one that God had given them no less)?

And why living well was called "living off the fat of the land?"

And how was it that the best way to celebrate the recovery of a lost son was to kill a fatted calf and throw a party? After all, why not a few fatfree carrots, or a bowl of pulse, or maybe some fiery Tex-Mex hot sauce? I'm told the latter cleans out the innards nicely.

Just wondering ...

Regards,

Norm

(the reprobate Philistine)

August 2, 2005

Quote:

David_McQueen said:

Shane could you source for me the following

1) Why meat is not the "best food". Compared to what?

2) What specific liabilites of meat do supplements cater for?

3) What evidence do you have that few areas of the world comply with Levitical/Noahide preparation of meats?

4) On what biblical premise do you associate meat eating and the Day of Atonement? Wasnt the day of atonement one of actual fasting?

[:"blue"]Let me tell you a couple of experiences.

One summer while in college, I was colporteuring [selling religious books] and I roomed with another student. He had previously worked in a chicken farm. He wouldn't eat chicken especially those served in roadside restaurants. He told me that chickens that walked kinda funny because of disease were killed and usually sold to roadside restaurants. I have never had a stomach for chicken since.

I first went into the practice of medicine in central California. Among the industries in town was an abattoir. I think most of our patients new that the SDA docs were essentially vegetarians. One day, one of our patients who worked at the abattoir came to me & asked me to teach him how to be a vegetarian. I was very surprised because people eating beef was his livelihood, so I asked him why. He told me that often times he would be called on weekends to go a slaughter a cow that was known not to make it through till Monday because of sickness.

I asked him, "Do you mean to say that diseased cattle are sold for consumption?" The answer was an unequivocal "Yes."

"But what about the USDA grading system?" I asked him.

"As long as the diseased portion of the meat is cut out, the rest can even be passed off as Grade A. Furthermore, there are not enough meat inspectors to inspect every slaughtered cow," was his reply.

I feel awful when I see a dog or cat that has been run over on the highways. I can't even stand to kill the rabbits that come & eat the grass seedlings I am trying to re-establish in my lawn, so I don't eat meat anymore. I may still occasionally eat fish, especially salmon. I rationalize it this way, Pacific salmon die shortly after spawning anyway. But even this I am trying to get away from because of the mercury level in fish. Besides, much salmon are raised in fish farms these days, and from what I have read, are not as healthy as the wild salmon.

As for concern about having adequate protein in a vegetarian diet, all legumes are high in protein. If you combine two different vegetarian sources of protein, you will have all your essential amino acids. The only thing vegans might fall short on would be B-12, but I understand brewer's yeast is very high in B-12, or just simply supplement the vegan diet with B-12 pills.

The results of the Loma Linda Health Study, to me, convincingly demonstrates the superiority of a vegetarian diet even among SDAs. [/]

Gerry

August 2, 2005

Until recently, most commercially prepared apple cider was made with windfall, when it was finally recognized by the USDA that many orchards have cattle grazing in them ... with accompanying "meadow muffins," of course. Lettuce and celery have been recent sources of illness for similar contamination reasons. Many other similar problems can be cited linking public health problems with vegetables, just like they can with meat. Things happen, either way. These are just a few samples from the other side. But I don't think this is a good reason to abstain from veges either, anymore than the anecdotal evidence cited above is for abstaining from eating meat. These are reasons to keep your eyes open and think sensibly instead -- wash your food, prepare it properly, choose items carefully and appropriately, think about what you are doing, and so on. Toddlers stick everything in their mouth; adults should know better ... and do better.

(The late?) Dr. William Jarvis, then of the Loma Linda University School of Public Health, when he published on this topic in 1997, put it this way: I am not a vegetarian, I'm a vegetable enthusiast -- Why I Am Not a Vegetarian. That balance seems much more sensible to me.

Regards,

Norm

August 2, 2005

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He told me that often times he would be called on weekends to go a slaughter a cow that was known not to make it through till Monday because of sickness.

I asked him, "Do you mean to say that diseased cattle are sold for consumption?" The answer was an unequivocal "Yes."

"But what about the USDA grading system?" I asked him.

"As long as the diseased portion of the meat is cut out, the rest can even be passed off as Grade A. Furthermore, there are not enough meat inspectors to inspect every slaughtered cow," was his reply.

It has only been recently that downer cattle have been banned from the food chain. And only due to the possiblity of mad cow disease. BUT Bush may ease that restriction soon. It is feared that the USDA may start banning downer pigs and lambs too. It maddens me when no one talks about the horse meat industry. I think there are at least 3 foreign owned equine abbatoirs in the US. And all processed meat is sent overseas. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/icon_smile_sick.gif" alt="" /> Sorry, I have a special love for horses and its not on anyones dinner plate.

"downer" : term used for cattle that are too ill or unjured to make it even to the truck let alone into the abbatoir.

Also there have been cases of cattle that have died in the trucks on route and still wind up in the food chain. I guess there were just a little bit dead. Not all the way dead. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/icon_smile_sick.gif" alt="" />

August 2, 2005

Sorry about being off topic... but... I have to ask...

Gerry Cabalo, since you started practice in Central California, you don't, erhm.. didn't happen to know Dr. C. Ernest Parrish did you??

Clio

August 2, 2005

Quote:

Clio said:

Sorry about being off topic... but... I have to ask...

Gerry Cabalo, since you started practice in Central California, you don't, erhm.. didn't happen to know Dr. C. Ernest Parrish did you??

Clio

Sorry, Clio. Never heard of him. I was in Madera.

Gerry

August 2, 2005

He was in Auburn... practiced medicine in the Central Cal. area for 65 years... just thought you might have run into one another. He was in his 90's when he finally retired.

Clio

August 3, 2005

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Many other similar problems can be cited linking public health problems with vegetables, just like they can with meat.

Contaminated water can kill us too. So should we all drink Coca-cola to be safe? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Afterall eating meat to avoid contaminated vegetables makes about as much sense.

The vegetarian diet has been proven the most healthy when propper care is taken to get all the nutrients needed. This has been done in not just one study but in various over the period of many years. When my wife worked in nursing we would get some nursing magazine in the mail that would often address the benefits of the vegetarian diet.

Now if one does not wish to be a vegetarian, that is their choice. The Bible does not require vegetarianism. However the Bible does place restrictions on meat and the vast majority of meat sold on the market does not meet those restrictions - fish being the possible exception.

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And they smote the Philistines that day from Michmash to Aijalon: and the people were very faint. And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew them on the ground: and the people did eat them with the blood. Then they told Saul, saying, Behold, the people sin against the Lord, in that they eat with the blood. And he said, Ye have transgressed: roll a great stone unto me this day. (1 Sam. 14:31-33)

Now while the apostles stated circumcision was an unnecesary burden, abstaining from blood (an obvious reference to the Old Testement prohibition) was not such a burden but was a command (Acts 15:20)

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For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 1528, 29)

August 7, 2005

Gerry I would be interested to see the results of the Loma Linda study. It would be interesting to see against what eating habits or research group that a vegetarian diet was considered superior to an omnivorous one, especially if a group of people followed the diet and treatment of animals as recommended by scripture.

I can't help to thinking that if Jesus was a fully fledged Jew then his diet would have definitely been omnivorous, with not just fish but the consumption of lamb at Passover as well.

This is not a contentious issue, just one with which I am seriously intrigued with!

August 7, 2005

How about this article that came out in the CBC news this week. It's not necessarily meat but it is an animal product. Could there be other causes for disease in meat eating?

"A new review supports a possible link between drinking milk in high doses and a higher risk of ovarian cancer.

Researchers in Sweden reviewed 21 previous international studies into a suspected link between the disease and dairy products.

"This gives some evidence that milk might be linked to increase risk of ovarian cancer, but that more research is needed," said study author Susanna Larsson of the National Institute of Environmental Medicine at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

Larsson concluded that prospective cohort studies, in which people are followed forward in time, support the hypothesis that high intakes of dairy foods and lactose may increase the risk of ovarian cancer."

August 7, 2005

Heard that report in the week. Correct me if I am wrong but was the focus not on cow's rather than goat's milk.

I will try and find the source for you but many cultures who have consumed goats milk and none of the processed cow's milk we have today have historically had any issues with cancer.

August 7, 2005

You're right, David, its focus was cows milk. I think since goats aren't as plentiful perhaps there is not as much disease in them? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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