Lets Talk About Meat

August 7, 2005

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Gerry I would be interested to see the results of the Loma Linda study

http://www.adventistreview.org/2004-1506/story2.html

http://www.llu.edu/llu/sph/sphere/sphereadvent.htm

August 7, 2005

I suspect Jesus ate lamb, beef, chicken, etc. more often than just at passover. As He was poor and often the Guest of others, I suspect He ate whatever was served. Since He lived and ministered among the Jews, unclean meats, meats with blood or excessive fat wouldn't have been an issue.

Norm brought up the idea of the prodical son eating the fattened calf. So let's do a little Bible study on fat.

Lev. 7:23 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat."

The Hebrew word here is cheleb and can mean "the best part" or "grease" or "marrow". Since God has said, "they that seek the Lord shall not [lack] any good thing" (Ps. 34:10) and "For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly." (Ps. 84:11). It seems the word cheleb in context here means "grease" or animal fat. This same word is used in Lev. 3:17 in prohibitting the consumption of fat and in many other verses regarding fat offered in sacrifices.

In 1 Kings 1:9 we find, "And Adonijah slew sheep and oxen and fat cattle... " Here the Hebrew word is mriy and means "stall-fed" This translates as fat but has a different meaning entirely.

Isaiah 34:7 says, "the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."

Here the Hebrew word translated to fat is dashen and means "rich" or "fertile".

Jer. 5:28 says, "They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked..." This is the Hebrew word shamam and means "to shine" "be oily" "be fat".

Ezek. 34:34 says, "there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel."

Here the Hebrew word translated fat is shamen and means "rich", "lusty" or "plenteous". In this use it seems to mean plenteous.

Zec 11:16 says, "I will raise up a shepherd in the land... he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

The Hebrew word used here is bariy and means "fed", "firm, "plenteous" or "rank".

Now let's look at the story of the prodical son.

Luke 15: 22, 23, "the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry"

The Greek word here is siteutos and means "grain-fed". So there ends to mistery. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 7, 2005

Am curious. I know many of you are vegetarians, but how easy is it to get grain fed, blood drained meats in American towns and cities. If I went by the research in Fast Food nation it would appear it is very limited?

Amelia thanks for the links!

August 7, 2005

I don't see a command to only eat grain-fed animals. If that was the case all wild game would be forbidden and we know there were hunters in Biblical times. A lot of US cattle is grain-fed in the Mid-West. In Texas most of our cattle are raised in grazing pastors.

Kosher meat has had the blood removed from it. Here are some Kosher standards.

Most Jews believe the restriction of fat includes only a few types of fat like that found around some organs and in the stomach of some animals (these fats commonly go into hot dogs in the US). Others believe the restriction of fat is more inclusive and is removed by the one cooking the food and not by the butcher (thus kosher meat still has fat).

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It is forbidden to eat fat. Some consider this to mean that all fatty parts, such as kidneys, and the skin of chicken, should be thrown away. However, there is some fat present even in lean meat. All clean meat containing fat needs to be roasted until the fat in the meat melts and drains away. If the fat thus melted away happens to give the meat a nice flavor in the process, that is not a problem; the meat is still lawful. Once the fat is melted and drained out of the animal, you can use it for anything except cooking and eating.

Food that is roasted together with meat, so that the fat of the meat comes in contact with it, is unlawful to eat. Gravy, which is made primarily from animal fat, is unlawful.

The Bible doesn't go into such detail. Fat is forbidden in two places and from there different sects of Jews have formed their customs. For those of us that follow the Bible alone, the Jewish customs offer little more than commentary on interprtation of such passages. If we do try to cook the fat out of our meat, that would mean more barbacues and no frying.

August 7, 2005

Quote:

I know many of you are vegetarians, but how easy is it to get grain fed, blood drained meats in American towns and cities.

In St. Louis, MO, it is not difficult.

August 7, 2005

I can easily find kosher meats and other foods here in my part of Oregon. But plan on paying top dollar. Kosher foods are spendy.

August 7, 2005

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In Texas most of our cattle are raised in grazing pastors

August 7, 2005

Interestingly enough, the American Dietetic Association says,<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

On average, the greatest amounts of fat in the American diet come directly from fats and oils, as well as salad dressings, candies, gravies, sauces, and other foods from the tip of the Food Guide Pyramid ...

.

Depending on food choices, meat, poultry, fish, and eggs may account for the next largest amount of fat in an average diet, followed by milk, cheese, yogurt, and frozen desserts.

<hr /></blockquote>Complete Food and Nutrition Guide, p. 60

So eliminating only meat to solve the problem of eating excess fat is unlikely to succeed for most people, regardless of whether one does so for religious or secular reasons.

Because of the growing recognition during the past 50 to 100 years that the average diet is too high in fat and that meat consumption does contribute to that though, the USDA has changed its meat grading standards more than once to give preference to leaner and more closely trimmed cuts of meat. The meat purchased in an American supermarket today, has considerably less fat in it that it did 50 or even 25 years ago.

In fact, breeding has developed beef animals that are actually highly different from those of the past. Beef breeds then were shortlegged with heavy carcasses. Marbling of fat in the meat was a positive goal. It was achieved largely by feeding grain and limiting pasturing to such breeds. Today, to supply a lean carcass closer to the standards presently set by the USDA, long leggy animals are favored, animals almost twice the height of early beef breeds that yield good weight gains on pasture and hay feeding, and feeds based on that, with less emphasis on grain.

In fact, some of the most desireable meats in this new market are from nearly fat-free animals, at least in terms of marbling and accumulated fat, such as buffalo. Buffalo are virtually exclusively pasture fed. Given their natural inclination, they won't touch grain unless they're starving, likewise alfalfa hay. They prefer what amounts to weeds in previous thinking - good old prairie hay. The same is true of game and wild meat - venison, elk, antelope, moose and caribou (to the north of us), etc. - equally as lean because they eat pasture, not grain. Until recently, butchers actually added suet or lard to such lean cuts to meet the tastes of the time. This is becoming increasingly rare.

In light of this, many cattle feeders are moving toward pasture feeding instead of grain to achieve leaner carcasses. This is especially true of organic beef producers. Top prices here go to the combination of pasture fed with organic practices, driven by the public's desire for lean beef.

If as a consumer you're not used to evaluating meat at the production level, the key to remember is that grain is fed to fatten the animal. Pasture-fed animals are leaner and have a lower feed cost, but take longer to reach market weights. That does make it a bit of a balancing act for the grower trying to hold costs down. But the demand today is for leaner, less fat marbled cuts of meat; and pasture feeding is how to get there.

By the way, although fat content is not specified in Kosher produced and butchered animals, most Kosher meat is not as pricey as some think once it reaches the table. This is due to the fact that Kosher is seen as a high value product, and therefore better carcasses and leaner cuts are favored. At home in the kitchen, there is less weight loss due to fat being melted out in cooking with this leaner Kosher product than with ordinary cuts of meat.

As for availability, Kosher beef hot dogs are widely available in Wal-Mart stores nationwide. And take note, they are not made with any by-products, but better cuts of meat instead. Also, most communities that have a body of Jewish believers in them, often have Kosher delicatessen and market establishments. Such things as Kosher steaks and roasts, and lamb, as well as processed meats, can be found there. Kosher markets prefer to distance themselves from ordinary (gentile) supermarkets. So other than the hot dog exception noted, it's a bit of waste of time looking in the average supermarket for Kosher meat.

And as for fast food emporiums (Fast Food Nation?), David, heaven help you in a search for low fat burgers among them. They are megafat, megacalorie specialists, first, foremost and throughout. Not to mention a scarcity of Kosher-ness. After all, ever hear of a Kosher cheeseburger? ... an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Regards,

Norm

August 7, 2005

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So other than the hot dog exception noted, it's a bit of waste of time looking in the average supermarket for Kosher meat.

In Oregon visit [:"blue"] Trader Joes and Wild Oats [/] for meat. Most [:"blue"] Albertsons [/]and [:"blue"]Fred Meyers [/] have good sized kosher sections. And thats not just passover foods. A local bakery used to handle kosher challah but stopped and I havent found a replacement. You can get challah most anywhere now, just not kosher.

August 7, 2005

Thanks, Amelia. Behold, the un-average supermarkets. Are there more?

Regards,

Norm

August 7, 2005

In St. Louis, there are kosher delis as well as Wild Oats and Trader Joes. There are also Whole Foods Markets and International Markets. The "average" supermarkets in St. Louis, Schnucks, Dierbergs, and Shop 'N' Save all have kosher meats available. Busch Stadium also sells Kosher's Best Hotdogs! Near Passover, one can easily find kosher marshmallows as well (that's when I stock up for Pathfinders!).

August 7, 2005

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On average, the greatest amounts of fat in the American diet come directly from fats and oils, as well as salad dressings, candies, gravies, sauces, and other foods from the tip of the Food Guide Pyramid ...

I suspect the American Dietetic Association here is talking about all types of fats, not just animal fat. Of course one of the biggest sources of fat is junk food. Potato chips, Cheetoes and many sweets are full of fat. However those of us trying to live a healthful lifestyle will only eat such things in moderation and not on a regular basis. So for us, the primary source of fat than becomes the food we eat in our regular meals.

Not to confuse the issue, the Bible in no place prohibits fats from the plant kingdom such as olive oil, corn oil, avocados, nuts, etc.

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ever hear of a Kosher cheeseburger?

Yep, I have to say I have.

August 7, 2005

Steak - grilled, medium, nice-n-thick, with a mushroom sauce

Lamb chops - grilled, with gravy or mint sauce

Beef - stir-fried with some ginger, garlic and vegetables

Sausages - beef of course, grilled on the barbeque, with some sauteed onions on a bun

Yummmm

We were talking about meat, right? <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

August 7, 2005

There are certain blessings attached to large metropolitan areas.

Any smaller burgs in other parts of the country with success in finding Kosher? The only food store in Hawarden does not, that I know; nor have I had much success with Sioux City, except for Wal-Mart. At one time, there were several Kosher delis, a bakery, and a food store/meat market in Sioux City. But demographics change, and the Jewish population is much reduced today.

How about places outside U.S. borders? After all, David began this from the United Kingdom.

Regards,

Norm

August 7, 2005

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Lamb chops - grilled, with gravy or mint sauce

The gravy would probbally not pass the Biblical test if it is made with the lamb's fat.

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Beef - stir-fried with some ginger, garlic and vegetables

If it is so lean that vegetable oil needs to be added to fry it, then it is Biblical (provided the blood has been drained). If it is being fried in its only fat, than it probbally doesn't meet the test.

My statements are conditional because if one believes like most Jews, only select fats are forbidden in Leveticus. However the Bible doesn't go into detail and others believe the prohibition on fat means the fat needs to be cooked out by broiling, baking, grilling or barbacuing.

The biggest problem with common meats is the blood content. They are not butchered correctly and by the time they are purchased at the market their age prevents the consumer from getting the blood out to any significant degree.

In many parts of the world it is just easier to be a vegetarian and if one must eat meat - just settle for fish. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

August 7, 2005

You are correct, Shane. The ADA was talking about all types of fat, with vegetable fat coming in a very distant third.

By the way, it's slightly off-topic, but newly released figures show that the bulk of calories (this is all calories mind you) in the American diet now come from sugars, mostly in soft drinks, plus juices and other liquid endeavors more distantly.

This "Kosher cheeseburger" you saw, surely the purveyor had his tongue thoroughly implanted in his cheek as he promoted his product didn't he? (Else there was more of snake than beef to his ware, cheese being a milk product and thus tripping the levitical invocation against boiling a kid in its mother's milk.)

Regards,

Norm

August 8, 2005

Indeed, there are certain blessings to living in a metropolitan area. Even so, there are a number of things people can do in less urban areas.

The average grocer in St. Louis did not start selling these kosher items until fairly recently (within the past 10 years). The average grocer in St. Louis dis not start selling vegetarian items until fairly recently either. It was by request that so many grocers now stock these items.

Over and over again, Adventists, vegetarians and Jewish people alike have had to ask for these and make their desires known. Once one started stocking the items, the rest followed suit.

An encouragement to those seeking a wider variety of foods at their local grocer: ask, ask, and ask again. Encourage friends and family to do so as well. Sooner or later the owners will get the hint.

In the meantime, there is always the Internet!

August 8, 2005

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This "Kosher cheeseburger" you saw, surely the purveyor had his tongue thoroughly implanted in his cheek

The burger wasn't beef. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

August 8, 2005

I sure like Burger Kings' veggie burgers! <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

November 18, 2005

Nice link

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/sights_n_sounds/index.html

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