The Disciples' Message Forgotten

[joeb]

Ron,

You were asking for Biblical evidence that the Jewish economy had come to end at the death of Christ.

In the following texts what set of laws were being referred to? Acts 13:39, Acts 15:5, Acts 28:23, Joshua 1:7

[Ron Amnsn]

In the following texts what set of laws were being referred to? Acts 13:39, Acts 15:5, Acts 28:23, Joshua 1:7

Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses would refer to teachings of Moses contained in the first five books of Scripture, the Books of Moses.

In the Law of Moses there were sins that would cause a person (not the nation as a whole) to be cut off from the Covenant, thereby losing their inheritance and place in Israel. The Law of Moses tells of no remedy for that. Through Messiah a person who was cut off could be grafted in again, just as the Gentiles are grafted in to Israel through Messiah. (Romans 11:23)

The way I understand it, the terms are the similar to what they were for purchased slaves under the covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17). We have been purchased by Jesus, a descendant of Abraham.

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The context is a debate among Jews about how Gentile believers will be brought into the fellowship of Jewish believers. If the debate had occurred among Protestants, then the issue would definitely would have been whether to have Gentiles follow the Laws of Moses, or not. But this debate is not happening in a Protestant context.

The men speaking are identified as Pharisees, rather than as Jews, so apparently their position had to do with something that the Pharisees did differently than other Jewish sects. All the Jewish religious sects observed the written Law of Moses as interpreted by their sect.

The Pharisees had added their multitude of man-made "fence laws" to carefully guard the Law of Moses. Part of their process for supposedly turning a Gentile proselyte into a Jew (which was necessary to obtain salvation) was to teach them to follow all the man-made oral laws as well as the written Law of Moses. The process included a vow from the proselyte to keep the whole law (oral and written) and culminated with circumcision done according to their man-made traditions. If a Gentile had been previously circumcised for other reasons, his circumcision would not be considered valid and would have to be re-done. This proselyte program had been the status-quo among most of the Jews as far back as anyone could remember. These Pharisees were not asking for something new, they were defending the way things had always been done (for example, see Nicholas in Acts 6:5).

What these believing Pharisees were saying in the Jewish context could (and probably should) be translated as "It is necessary to circumcise them [as we always have, by putting them through the traditional proselyte process] and to teach them to carefully guard the Law of Moses [by following our oral traditions]."

It is apparent later in the debate that the issue was indeed the man-made traditional laws, not the written Law of Moses. Peter says, "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10) Of course, to a Protestant the written Law of Moses would probably seem like an unbearable yoke, but it wasn't considered that way to a Jew. Jesus lived by the Law of Moses and said, "My yoke is easy." Moses had specifically taught, "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Peter was talking in the same congregation that was later described as, "they are all zealous for the Law [of Moses]" (Acts 21:20) So it would have been totally untrue for Peter to say that they had been unable to bear something that they were actually zealous for. If Peter had actually been saying the Law of Moses being unbearable, he would have been saying that Moses and Jesus were both liars, which would have caused a ruckus in a meeting full of people who are all zealous for the Law.

There is other evidence in Acts 15 that the issue at the council was the man-made oral Laws, but I won't cover it all here.

Acts 28:23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

Among Jews the Old Testament is not called the "Old Testament". The Jewish scriptures are referred to collectively as "the Law, Prophets, and Writings" or in shorter form as "the Law and the Prophets". Today they use the acronym "Tanakh", which abbreviates the Hebrew words for "the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings".

When Paul used the Law of Moses in this verse, he would have been using the first five books of Scripture, the Books of Moses.

Joshua 1:7 "Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go.

The word "law" in this verse (and most places in the OT) is translated from "Torah", which means "Instructions". In this case it would be the written Law of God that was given through Moses and would probably include all the other verbal instructions that Moses gave to Joshua.

[joeb]

Ron,

OK. I can go along with all of that for the purposes for which I'm using these texts. Can we safely say we are agreed that Moses did indeed write a law which the COI and the Jews called the "law of Moses" that contained all the instructions for the Jewish economy? By that I mean their sacrificial system and the instructions for the feasts, etc....

[Guest]

Robert, you've been reading too much anti-Jewish propaganda and not enough Scripture.

My name isn't Robert.

[Ron Amnsn]

My name isn't Robert.

My apologies. I got you mixed up with someone else.

[Ron Amnsn]

Can we safely say we are agreed that Moses did indeed write a law which the COI and the Jews called the "law of Moses" that contained all the instructions for the Jewish economy? By that I mean their sacrificial system and the instructions for the feasts, etc....

Yes.

[joeb]

Yes.

Great. Can we safely agree that the 10 commandments were the only law placed under the mercy seat in the ark of the covenant?

[Ron Amnsn]

Can we safely agree that the 10 commandments were the only law placed under the mercy seat in the ark of the covenant?

If I was being precise I would call them the "ten words". The first one would start with Exodus 20:2, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Otherwise the contents are the same as what you call the "10 commandments". I agree that they were the only document placed inside the ark of the covenant.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

My name isn't Robert.

My apologies. I got you mixed up with someone else.

That's ok.

But I don't want to be confused with that guy. And, he's no longer allowed to post here. I think because of his combativeness.

You can call me Richard, if you like.

[Gail]

You can call me Richard, if you like.

Can I call you Richard, too? :)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

You can call me Richard, if you like.

Can I call you Richard, too?

Yes you certainly can. )

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

powerful words,

God is not mocked, whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap.

It is important to remember here, that the child of God (he who is born again) is saved conditionally based on the promises of Jesus and His shed blood, not conditional on his own successes or failures from his righteousnesses which are as filthy rages.

Thus as long as one trusts that God will keep all of the promises He has made, as Morris Venden wrote, "It is easier to be saved than it is to be lost.

"For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"Hebrews 13:5 NKJV

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."John 4:14 KJV

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"John 11:26 KJV

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Acts 2:21 KJV

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:17 KJV

"But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners and has been given the highest place of honor in heaven."Hebrews 7:24-26 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#634388 - 25/05/2013 00:35

As Olger would say, "Forsooth".

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Does God explain somewhere in the OT what the sacrifices 'foreshadow' or point to?

"“And after the sixty-two weeks

Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

And the people of the prince who is to come

Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end of it shall be with a flood,

And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

But in the middle of the week

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

Daniel 9:26-27 NKJV

"Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead."Matthew 27:50-52 NLT

God cares!

[Ron Amnsn]

Quote:

Does God explain somewhere in the OT what the sacrifices 'foreshadow' or point to?

"“And after the sixty-two weeks

Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

And the people of the prince who is to come

Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end of it shall be with a flood,

And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

But in the middle of the week

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

Daniel 9:26-27 NKJV

"Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead." Matthew 27:50-52 NLT

It looks like your answer to the question must be "No".

Daniel 9:26-27 tells about Messiah being cut off, but doesn't explain that the sacrifices foreshadow that event. Then it tells about a "prince who is to come" who will destroy the city and the sanctuary and stop the sacrifices and offerings. In 70 AD Titus and his armies destroyed the city and the temple and caused the sacrifices to cease. But the passage doesn't explain that the sacrifices foreshadow that event.

Matthew 27:50-52 is not in the Old Testament. However, if we put it together with Hebrews 10:20 it does explain what the veil in the Temple represented -- the flesh of Jesus, which was torn or broken at the same time as the veil was torn.

Maybe you're reading into these passages some man-made interpretations that aren't actually contained in the passages but are somehow connected to the passages in your mind.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Can we safely agree that the 10 commandments were the only law placed under the mercy seat in the ark of the covenant?

If I was being precise I would call them the "ten words". The first one would start with Exodus 20:2, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Otherwise the contents are the same as what you call the "10 commandments". I agree that they were the only document placed inside the ark of the covenant.

We're in agreement so far, and that's good.

Can we agree that that the sanctuary furniture and services, feasts, etc... were designed by God to reveal the plan of salvation?

[Ron Amnsn]

Can we agree that that the sanctuary furniture and services, feasts, etc... were designed by God to reveal the plan of salvation?

Yes

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

if we put it together with Hebrews 10:20 it does explain what the veil in the Temple represented -- the flesh of Jesus, which was torn or broken at the same time as the veil was torn.

I see the broken body of Jesus opening the way into the Holy of Holies, revealing the new way of entrance through Him, no longer hindered by a veil which was against us. See Colossians 2:12-16, which the tearing of the curtain (veil) from top to bottom, indicating it was a work of God and not of any man's doing, save the Man, Jesus Christ. As to the injunction, not to let any man judge others in their life of duty,

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."John 3:17 NKJV

God cares!

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Can we agree that that the sanctuary furniture and services, feasts, etc... were designed by God to reveal the plan of salvation?

Yes

Good. I'm glad we're agreed up to this point.

If we look at Deuteromony 31:24-26 we find Moses finishing writing the law that came became known as the law of Moses. He instructs the Levites to place it in a pocket in the side of the ark of the covenant so that it can be a witness against them when they cease to keep it.

Using the same symbolism we find in everything else related to the sanctuary and its services we see that this law is not covered by God's mercy. Why? It's stored outside the ark of the covenant and not beneath the mercy seat.

Why would the law concerning what is essentially the plan of salvation in symbols not be covered by God's mercy like the 10 commandments are? Because this law points directly to Jesus, the very expression of God's mercy and love. And if we reject Jesus God's mercy is not available to us. We will pay the price for out sins.

We see this truth taught in the experiences of the Isrealites/Jews. Every time they stopped following this law of Moses they began following other gods. And, every time they brought back the keeping of this law they abandoned all other gods.

There's another lesson to be found along these lines too. David and Isaiah, and others, brought this out in the OT. It's that this law could also be broken by missing the point of the law and in their minds making the ceremonies themselves have value. What was that that missing point? That a redeemer was coming to save them from sin and that God's real desire was for them to overcome sin. In this way they could miss out on God's mercy just as easily as they could by flagrantly worshipping idols.

Are we agreed to this point?

[Guest]

If we look at Deuteromony 31:24-26 we find Moses finishing writing the law that came became known as the law of Moses. He instructs the Levites to place it in a pocket in the side of the ark of the covenant so that it can be a witness against them when they cease to keep it.

Using the same symbolism we find in everything else related to the sanctuary and its services we see that this law is not covered by God's mercy. Why? It's stored outside the ark of the covenant and not beneath the mercy seat.

Why would the law concerning what is essentially the plan of salvation in symbols not be covered by God's mercy like the 10 commandments are? Because this law points directly to Jesus, the very expression of God's mercy and love. And if we reject Jesus God's mercy is not available to us. We will pay the price for out sins.

We see this truth taught in the experiences of the Isrealites/Jews. Every time they stopped following this law of Moses they began following other gods. And, every time they brought back the keeping of this law they abandoned all other gods.

There's another lesson to be found along these lines too. David and Isaiah, and others, brought this out in the OT. It's that this law could also be broken by missing the point of the law and in their minds making the ceremonies themselves have value. What was that that missing point? That a redeemer was coming to save them from sin and that God's real desire was for them to overcome sin. In this way they could miss out on God's mercy just as easily as they could by flagrantly worshipping idols.

Are we agreed to this point?

I know I am in agreement with it Joe, and I like the way you put it. I know you weren't talking to me, sorry to interrupt.

[joeb]

RLH,

No interruption, so no apology needed. I mean it's not like you were shouting over the top of me....

Glad to know you both agree and like how I expressed this. I'll be interested to see how Ron sees this.

[Ron Amnsn]

If we look at Deuteromony 31:24-26 we find Moses finishing writing the law that came became known as the law of Moses. He instructs the Levites to place it in a pocket in the side of the ark of the covenant so that it can be a witness against them when they cease to keep it.

[joeb]

Nobody in Scripture is rebuked for obedience to God's instructions, even if they are doing it for the wrong reason. Obedience is a good thing, and as people mature, they obey for better reasons. But God designed the law so that when people go through the motions for the wrong reasons, they are disregarding other parts of God's instructions, like loving God with all their heart or loving their neighbors. People were rebuked for disregarding the weightier matters of the law.

Let's deal with this first. OK?d I dislike getting into trying to answer multiple parts of a post because pretty soon we're getting into extremely long posts that nobody really wants to read.

Hmmmm.... Nobody was ever rebuked for legalistic obedience? How about Isaiah 58? The Jews were following the ceremonial laws and God rebuked them through Isaiah for their lack of understanding of His requirements.

How about the Pharisees of Christ's day. Christ said that if someone wanted to get to heaven their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, and the Pharisees prided themselves on their own obedience and their keeping of the law of Moses. That's a pointed rebuke if I've ever seen/heard one.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Let's deal with this first. OK?d I dislike getting into trying to answer multiple parts of a post because pretty soon we're getting into extremely long posts that nobody really wants to read.

Hmmmm.... Nobody was ever rebuked for legalistic obedience? How about Isaiah 58? The Jews were following the ceremonial laws and God rebuked them through Isaiah for their lack of understanding of His requirements.

How about the Pharisees of Christ's day. Christ said that if someone wanted to get to heaven their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, and the Pharisees prided themselves on their own obedience and their keeping of the law of Moses. That's a pointed rebuke if I've ever seen/heard

And for all that pointed rebuke, the way always lies open to receive the gift of repentance when our pride doesn't stifle the voice of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sitting here listening to the Hoppers sing "Yes I Am", something most would find great encouragement in, who look for the second coming of Christ with much anticipation.

http://aolradio.slacker.com/?aolid=911

The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.Ephesians 1:14 NLT

God cares!

[Ron Amnsn]

How about Isaiah 58? The Jews were following the ceremonial laws and God rebuked them through Isaiah for their lack of understanding of His requirements.