The Disciples' Message Forgotten

[Ron Amnsn]

Moses differentiated between "his" law and God's eternal law when he instructed the Levites to store "his" law outside the ark, and God's eternal law was stored inside the ark.

One was a temporary law that dealt with the civil government of Isreal and the rites and ceremonies that pointed forward to Christ and His sacrifice. God's eternal law was just that, eternal. It had always been in force, and always will be in force.

Two different laws. Two different purposes.

Which verses in the Bible teach the distinction that you are trying to make here? What you have asserted is a commonly repeated man-made tradition among Christians, but like you, those who teach it do not support the teaching with Scripture, because the concept can't be found there. The only thing that can be found in Scripture is that the stone tablets were placed inside the Ark while the Scroll of the Law (which also contained the words that were written on the stone tablets) was placed beside the Ark. The Scriptures are silent about what was signified by the 9-inch difference in placement of the two items.

The law that was placed beside the Ark of the Covenant contained the same law that was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant. You can find it written in the scroll at Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5. If Moses was trying to make a distinction, as you claim, he did a very poor job of it, by placing the one within the other, instead of actually separating them and then telling us the significance of that separation.

As far as we can tell, the Israelites (and later the Jews) considered of all God's instructions recorded by Moses as a single body of Law, not as partly eternal and partly something else. The Jewish teaching that it is all a single body of Law is firmly based on what is written in the Scriptures. The scroll placed beside the Ark is referred to in Deut 31:26 as "the Book of the Law" (singular) rather than as "the Book of the Laws" (plural) even though it contains completely what you have tried to differentiate as "two different laws". Both what you call "God's eternal Law" as well as what you call "Moses' Law" are recorded within the single book (or scroll) designated in Scripture as "the Book of the Law".

Just the fact that you use so many terms not found in the Scripture ("moral law", "ceremonial law", "civil law", "eternal law") makes it appear that you are wanting to add to Scripture man-made distinctions and concepts that are not actually found in Scripture.

Besides the categories of law that you list, the Law of Moses also contains the law identified by Jesus as the "greatest commandment" as well as what Jesus identified as the second-greatest commandment. It is clear that Jesus did not view the commandments written on the scroll as separate and more temporary than the 10 Words that are written on the stone tablets.

God himself specified that the laws which you call "ceremonial law" were to be followed throughout the generations of the Israelites. (see Exodus 29:42, Exodus 30:10, and many more) The Israelites are still producing generations even to this day. It seems quite clear that you are directly contradicting God's Word.

[Ron Amnsn]

If anyone has time, looking over the remaining 603 commands is very interesting. A lot of them are followed by Christians and even non-Christians today.

Yes. Of the 613 commands identified by Jewish sages in the Law of Moses, Christians already observe 70% or more of the commands that apply to their individual situations. (Nobody keeps all 613 commands because some commands apply only to men, or only to women, or only to priests, or to kings, or to soldiers, or to farmers, etc.)

Many of the 613 commands have been incorporated into the laws of civilized nations. (ie. Don't move property boundaries. Don't punish with more than 40 lashes of the whip. Don't accept a bribe. Etc.)

[Gibs]

Richard was right with the original 1'st post of this thread, and the disciples message is really lost, forgotten today, one can see that by the posts commenting. There is so much to enlighten that I have not had the spirit to hunt it up and bring it here.

This did come to mind and will post the verses, make of it what you will.

Heb 9:23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Huh? Just how do you get around mandatory obedience when the 10 are written in your heart? That, to me, tells me obedience is a must as the conditions that create a heart dedicated to obedience are created inside us.

When we follow a "Law" that is written on the heart, are we keeping a law because it is "mandatory" (we must keep it or lose our Family membership) or because we love the law and the law Giver; and desire to keep it? We keep the Family's law because we are already part of the Family; we don't become Family members because we already keep the Family law.

I'll say it again - I do not advocate abandoning the 10 Commandments; I do advocate entering into the Family of God so we can be empowered from on high to respect and keep the Law.

[Guest]

...I think.

It is still mandatory to keep it though. There is nothing that says it is now optional somehow.

[Gibs]

What is meant by written in the heart is the fact of that Law of Love becoming also your Love. Love is the fulfilling of the Law and it cannot be kept in any other way but of Love and it being a transcript of you too as it is of God.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

What is meant by written in the heart is the fact of that Law of Love becoming also your Love. Love is the fulfilling of the Law and it cannot be kept in any other way but of Love and it being a transcript of you too as it is of God.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with you Gibs! That's rare!

[Ron Amnsn]

I understand that some people see a difference between the Mosaic Law (which we are not required to keep in order to be saved) and God's Law (which we must keep perfectly in order to be saved), can someone explain to me what the following verses mean?

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.(2 Cor. 3:6-10)"

[JoeMo]

Quote:

A more complete explanation of the passage in context is found at this link.

Wow Ron,

That was the best counterargument to those particular verses "proving" that the 10 Commandments were done away with that I have ever heard. Thanks for providing that link. It led me to other pretty eye-opening stuff as well. I've always maintained that I have a right to be wrong or change my mind on any given subject here. You have given me food for thought ... Thanks!

[joeb]

Quote:

Huh? Just how do you get around mandatory obedience when the 10 are written in your heart? That, to me, tells me obedience is a must as the conditions that create a heart dedicated to obedience are created inside us.

When we follow a "Law" that is written on the heart, are we keeping a law because it is "mandatory" (we must keep it or lose our Family membership) or because we love the law and the law Giver; and desire to keep it? We keep the Family's law because we are already part of the Family; we don't become Family members because we already keep the Family law.

I'll say it again - I do not advocate abandoning the 10 Commandments; I do advocate entering into the Family of God so we can be empowered from on high to respect and keep the Law.

JoeMo,

I meant mandatory as in: if the law is written in our hearts, and the heart is the well-spring of all of our behavior, then following the law in how we live is the mandatory result as there can be no other way of living. Jesus said this in a couple of different ways. He said a good tree produces good fruit and a corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit, and one type of tree never produces the opposite type of fruit. (Matt 7:17,18 and Luke 6:43)

Good tree == good fruit. The type of fruit a mandatory result from the type of tree.