Do you agree?

[joeb]

"Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

There's a lot of thought that went into the above sentence. Do you agree with Bonhoeffer, or disagree with him? Why do agree or disagree with him?

[joeb]

JOEB

well that is an interesting statement

dgrimm60

It is. So do you agree or disagree with it?

[joeb]

JOEB

well i agree and disagree

let me explain

for Christian believers I would say yes this statement make good sense

but there are tribes of people living on this earth that have never heard of the

name of JESUS and still follow and obey HIM... they are living up

to the light that the HOLY SPIRIT has shown them

dgrimm60

So you're taking Bonhoeffer's statement to exclude all those who have never heard of Christ.

I don't know if you've ever read anything he has written, but in his view of Christianity, as I see it from reading what he has to say, I don't think he would disagree with your idea of those who haven't heard the name, yet follow Christ.

They do believe because they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. If they didn't believe they wouldn't follow. Does that make sense to you?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes.

Hey Joe,

Looking at this from a purely spiritual dimension, it makes perfect sense. It is by grace through faith that we are saved, not by works. Part of the way I read this is that only believers are properly motivated to "obey" out of love, rather than "submit" out of fear or "comply" out of a sense of contractual duty ("I complied with your rules; therefore you owe me heaven"). Furthermore, it is only by the power of grace and cooperation wrought by faith in the Spirit that we even have the ability to obey. Does that make sense?

[Gibs]

Yes I do agree as you must be a firm believer to really love Him with all the heart and soul, and then it is love that does the law of love from love.

Love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth NOT knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

The true believer can but love Him with all the heart and soul and our fellow man as self!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Quote:

Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes.

Hey Joe,

Looking at this from a purely spiritual dimension, it makes perfect sense. It is by grace through faith that we are saved, not by works. Part of the way I read this is that only believers are properly motivated to "obey" out of love, rather than "submit" out of fear or "comply" out of a sense of contractual duty ("I complied with your rules; therefore you owe me heaven"). Furthermore, it is only by the power of grace and cooperation wrought by faith in the Spirit that we even have the ability to obey. Does that make sense?

Ummm.... What other dimension would there be to look at this from?

I'm not sure I quite understood what you said in the rest of your post. You seemed to be addressing only one side of the equation--the "only he who believes obeys" side.

Bonhoeffer's point of view, in the "only he who obeys, believes" side of the equation, is pretty well illustrated by Jesus in Luke 17:5-10. It's also found in James 2:21.

[JoeMo]

What's not to understand?

Are we submitting to God simply because we are afaraid of Him and damnation? Is that fear really a good basis for any relationship? Is contractual compliance an acceptable form of belief? Is complying with the contract (i.e., the law of God) even possible without faith and grace?

You offer Luke 17:5-10 as a proof text of your position. I offer you Matt. 25:41-46. Weren't these people complying with the contract? Yes! We're they diong so out of love? No; they were doing so in order to comply with the contract. Did Jesus commend them for their compliance? No - he sent them off to damnation because He didn't know them. They spent all their time getting to know the law rather than getting to know the Law-Giver.

[joeb]

What's not to understand?

Are we submitting to God simply because we are afaraid of Him and damnation? Is that fear really a good basis for any relationship? Is contractual compliance an acceptable form of belief? Is complying with the contract (i.e., the law of God) even possible without faith and grace?

You offer Luke 17:5-10 as a proof text of your position. I offer you Matt. 25:41-46. Weren't these people complying with the contract? Yes! We're they diong so out of love? No; they were doing so in order to comply with the contract. Did Jesus commend them for their compliance? No - he sent them off to damnation because He didn't know them. They spent all their time getting to know the law rather than getting to know the Law-Giver.

JoeMo,

I'm not offering anything as a "proof text" for "my" position. I'm simply showing what Bonhoeffer has expressed in his writings. The two texts I offered pretty well express the position he took.

I don't have his book with me at the moment or I would post more of his actual writings on this thought of his that I started this thread with. I'll either bring it tomorrow, or copy a paragraph or two tonight onto my laptop when I get back to the house, and post more of his actual thoughts on the subject tomorrow.

[Gerr]

"Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

There's a lot of thought that went into the above sentence. Do you agree with Bonhoeffer, or disagree with him? Why do agree or disagree with him?

Yes & No. Yes, Paul describes a belief/faith that obeys and an obedience that is prompted by faith which God reckons as righteousness. And no, there is a faith/belief that James describes that is only mental assent, totally disconnected from obedience. And the Israelites turned the Sinai Covenant into a covenant of works because they tried to obey but that obedience was not accompanied by faith.

[cricket]

According to Adventist understanding, is Jesus a believer? Also, according to Adventist understanding, is Jesus obedient?

[Textus Receptus]

JOEB

well i agree and disagree

let me explain

for Christian believers I would say yes this statement make good sense

but there are tribes of people living on this earth that have never heard of the

name of JESUS and still follow and obey HIM... they are living up

to the light that the HOLY SPIRIT has shown them

dgrimm60

I don't think he was speaking of people of have yet to hear the word of God. I think his statement was directly for Christians.

In that respect, I agree whole heartedly. If you love me keep my commandments. All through scripture, obedience is a prerequisite

[olger]

"Only the Believer obeys..."

This is a Biblical statement, supported by the account of Abraham and Revelation 22 (James 2:23-25; Hebrews 11:17, 8; Romans 4:18; Galatians 3:14; Revelation 22:14). By the way - disobedience is what got us into this mess.

As to "only those who obey, believe" this statement is what we call a "logical condition" statement (If, Then). If the first part of Dietrich's statement is true, Then the second part is also because they are spiritually juxtaposed.

Rejoice always,

`oG

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: dgrimm60

JOEB

well i agree and disagree

let me explain

for Christian believers I would say yes this statement make good sense

but there are tribes of people living on this earth that have never heard of the

name of JESUS and still follow and obey HIM... they are living up

to the light that the HOLY SPIRIT has shown them

dgrimm60

So you're taking Bonhoeffer's statement to exclude all those who have never heard of Christ.

Not if I understand Romans 2:12-15 correctly.

If Gentiles show obedience from the heart - as Paul indicates here they do - they believe, according to Bonhoeffer's statement there. They just haven't connected to the fact the god they are believing in, is in fact THE Lord God Almighty...that this same Almighty Creator is in fact the One who died to redeemed them.

Blessings,

[debbym]

When we act out of a heart and mind that are regenerated, and our behavior is from this renwed heart then it is the power of God working in us.

anyone who chooses can breath the atmosphere of God's grace and live a higher life, because God is offering this to everyone at all times. This is happening in the church and outside of the church. anyone who responds to the Holuy Spirit to do God's will is obeying God.

but when we act according to what we think is spiritual and Godly without any real connection to God, then our obedience is not really obedience at all, it is our efforts from our own selfish reasons. then i suppose we are merely obeying ourselves.

[Textus Receptus]

When we act out of a heart and mind that are regenerated, and our behavior is from this renwed heart then it is the power of God working in us.

anyone who chooses can breath the atmosphere of God's grace and live a higher life, because God is offering this to everyone at all times. This is happening in the church and outside of the church. anyone who responds to the Holuy Spirit to do God's will is obeying God.

but when we act according to what we think is spiritual and Godly without any real connection to God, then our obedience is not really obedience at all, it is our efforts from our own selfish reasons. then i suppose we are merely obeying ourselves.

I agree, my grand parents and may members of my family are good Catholics and are worshipping God to the best of their intentions.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit can be found in all churces as God has His people in every church. Yet, and unfortnately, Lucifer can also be found acting as the Holy Spirit. I do believe that those who die in their ignorance and have worshipped God to the best of their knowledge, God will "wink" at what they did no know and will be judged according to the light that that have been shown. However, I say this with great caution for the reasons you stated above.

I say "worship" and not just "love" for good reasons. Though some will say they love God, if they are not obedient to the understanding of scripture that they currently have, then it would not be unreasonable to suggests that they are following a counterfeit spirit. Many Emergent and Charismatic churches have thrown the Laws to the waste basket. However, if these folks are truly listening to the voice of God, they will 'hear His voice' as it states in scripture, and as a result, will intrinsically know that this is not what God has intended. Of course all of this will change once probation closes.

[Gail]

Not if I understand Romans 2:12-15 correctly.

If Gentiles show obedience from the heart - as Paul indicates here they do - they believe, according to Bonhoeffer's statement there. They just haven't connected to the fact the god they are believing in, is in fact THE Lord God Almighty...that this same Almighty Creator is in fact the One who died to redeemed them.

Thanks, Ted- this was where my mind went when I read the quote, too.

Quote:

Romans 2:14

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

or, as the CEV put it:

Quote:

Gentiles don’t have the Law. But when they instinctively do what the Law requires they are a Law in themselves, though they don’t have the Law.

The Gentiles who don't have the law have the same power of choice to follow their inclinations toward the law or not, as best as they know how. Choosing the things "of the law" in this sense does show a sort of belief, to choose the noble side.

[Tobiwan]

"Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

There's a lot of thought that went into the above sentence. Do you agree with Bonhoeffer, or disagree with him? Why do agree or disagree with him?

I agree that a lot of thought may have gone into the above sentence. However more important

believes who, or what?

obeys who, or what?

That is really the question that makes all the difference.

do you believe a talking snake, obey and eat? drink this kool-aid??????

There are at least two sides, two voices with two stories. Each speaker asking us to believe. I do not believe there are two sides to God, mercy on one side, justice on the other side as presented at a weekend service at a NY camp meeting a few years ago.

My thought is, everyone believes something or someone and obeys, every act of obedience is based on some belief, and Jesus has demonstrated at extensive cost and great risk to Himself that it makes a big difference who we believe and obey.

Jesus invites us to examine evidence He presents and decide if He is someone we want to get involved with, someone to believe and obey.

[Don777]

"Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes."

eg. I ask my son to do something. He doesn't believe that my request is wise and good. If he accomplishes the task, is it really an example of obedience? Perhaps we need to distinguish between compliance and obedience.

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

[joeb]

"Only the Believer obeys, and only he who obeys, believes."

eg. I ask my son to do something. He doesn't believe that my request is wise and good. If he accomplishes the task, is it really an example of obedience? Perhaps we need to distinguish between compliance and obedience.

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

The context of the original statement was belief in, and obedience to, God, not belief or not in any non-devine human being. To generalize as far as you are doing here takes Bonhoeffer's statement into territory it was never meant to address.

[joeb]

JoeMo,

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to copy anything out of the Cost of Discipleship yet. I've been living on a couple of hours of sleep a night for the last month or so because of my back, and yesterday the lack of sleep really caught up with me. I slept almost all day yesterday.

[joeb]

Not if I understand Romans 2:12-15 correctly.

If Gentiles show obedience from the heart - as Paul indicates here they do - they believe, according to Bonhoeffer's statement there. They just haven't connected to the fact the god they are believing in, is in fact THE Lord God Almighty...that this same Almighty Creator is in fact the One who died to redeemed them.

Blessings,

You nailed it, Ted. That's exactly how the Bible treats this arena, and the SOP too for that matter.

[joeb]

According to Adventist understanding, is Jesus a believer? Also, according to Adventist understanding, is Jesus obedient?

I guess I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Is Jesus a believer in what?

Is Jesus obedient? To this I must answer, of course. He never sinned, so He never broke God's (His own) law. His entire life was lived in accordance with God's law. On the night before His crucifixion He told His disciples that Satan was coming and he had found nothing in Him. (John 14:30) So even in attitude and thought there was nothing that responded to Satan's devices. He was truly obedient to His Father's will in all respects.

[cricket]

Originally Posted By: cricket

According to Adventist understanding, is Jesus a believer? Also, according to Adventist understanding, is Jesus obedient?

I guess I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Is Jesus a believer in what?

Is Jesus obedient? To this I must answer, of course. He never sinned, so He never broke God's (His own) law. His entire life was lived in accordance with God's law. On the night before His crucifixion He told His disciples that Satan was coming and he had found nothing in Him. (John 14:30) So even in attitude and thought there was nothing that responded to Satan's devices. He was truly obedient to His Father's will in all respects.

I ask, because of the definition of the word, obedient.

o·be·di·ent (-bd-nt)

adj.

Dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority.

My question is, according to Adventist teachings, is Jesus one who complies with the commands, orders and instructions of one in authority?

Also, my question about Jesus believing...yes, a believer in "what", if Jesus is a believer according to Adventist teaching?

[joeb]

I ask, because of the definition of the word, obedient.

o·be·di·ent (-bd-nt)

adj.

Dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority.

My question is, according to Adventist teachings, is Jesus one who complies with the commands, orders and instructions of one in authority?

Also, my question about Jesus believing...yes, a believer in "what", if Jesus is a believer according to Adventist teaching?

Doesn't the Bible make this clear? Jesus said He did everything/only_those_things His Father asked Him to do. Could Jesus have not been a believer in His Father and done everything His Father asked Him to do? Doesn't it take a tremendous amount of belief/trust in someone else to follow that person's instructions to point of giving up your life? That's what Jesus did. Remember Gethsemane where Christ asked 3 times that "this cup" might pass from Him, yet in the end submitted to it knowing where it would lead.

Since I'm still unclear as to what you're really asking, does this answer your question?

[cricket]

I'm asking if Adventists teach that Jesus was obedient as opposed to Jesus actually doing those things he did because it was what he willed to do. I'm wondering if Jesus just did those things to follow what God asked of him, or if he did it because he wanted to do those. I know I'm not explaining it well, but I'm trying.