Yo yo forgiveness?

[Gerr]

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive myt brother when he sins against Me? Up to seven times?'

Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.

Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said. 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay all he owed.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." Mt 18:21-35 NIV

How can a canceled debt be put back in the books? i.e. take back forgiveness?

Gerry

[Amelia]

I dont think the cancelled debt will be put back in the books. I think that we will just be harder judged by our Lord at His return. As you sow, so shall you reap.

[Gerr]

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Amelia said:

I dont think the cancelled debt will be put back in the books. I think that we will just be harder judged by our Lord at His return. As you sow, so shall you reap.

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[:"blue"]How could the Lord judge us harder if there is nothing in the books since the debt has been cancelled unless the debt is reinstituted? [/]

Gerry

[cricket]

Gerry,

I've thought about this several times myself. I even asked about it at prayer meeting once. I came home with a satisfactory answer that I'll share with you here.

Although it appears that this man no longer had a debt to pay, there was a new debt that he'd incurred. That debt? The wages of thee sin of forgiving another just as he was forgiven.

His original debt was cancelled. It is this new debt that the man must repay.

Hope this insight helps. It helped me.

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]How could the Lord judge us harder if there is nothing in the books since the debt has been cancelled unless the debt is reinstituted? [/]

Gerry

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[:"red"] "When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their good deeds will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins.

And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. For instance, they might give back a borrower's pledge, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live.

"Your people are saying, `The Lord is not just,' but it is they who are not just. For again I say, when righteous people turn to evil, they will die. But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. O people of Israel, you are saying, `The Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to your deeds." [/] Ezek 33:13-20 NLT

[:"red"] "...a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not a cutting of the body but a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. Whoever has that kind of change seeks praise from God, not from people." [/] Rom 2:29 NLT

[:"red"] "And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you." [/] Gal 3:29 NLT

Keep the faith!

[Gerr]

So, is God's forgiveness an on-again/off-again proposition?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Here's the problem I see with the idea you propose. If a person over a lifetime continues to commit heinous crimes, but in between each terrible crime he repents. Will he then be responsible only for the last crime?

Gerry

[Amelia]

Ok, now Im confused. Doesnt God know the final outcome of each of our lives? Reading those verses from Ezekiel it sure sounds like maybe we are and maybe we arent saved. Though a criminal repents between crimes, the Holy Spirit has to take residence within us for a true conversion to take place. Yes/no? So even if one repents that doesnt mean God accepts that repentence at that time. Its my firm belief that the Holy Spirit cannot take up residence in the heart/soul of someone who still harbors evil. But I may well be wrong.

[Gerr]

The most logical explanation to me is found in the SDA position, that when a sinner repents, he/she is forgiven but that the final disposition or blotting out of sin in a person's life does not take place until the person's case comes up in the judgment when the destiny of each individual is fixed, because there is always a chance the person will change his/her mind and would rather cast his/her lot with the devil. IOW, the record of sins are not blotted out each time a sinner repents & put back each time he/she back-slides, repents again, back-slides again, etc. etc.

As for the parable I cited first, for the evil servant to choke someone who owed him $18 while demanding payment after his lord forgave him $10 mil, shows that he has not really accepted/learned/internalized his lord's forgiveness. As Jesus' model prayer says, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." [The dollar equivalents I cited are from the NASB margin].

Gerry

[Amelia]

Thats why I stated that we may be harder judged in the end. We really need to learn from our repentance; not just say it. Indeed, if we dont learn from it, it is hallow and not worth much either to us or to God.

[cricket]

Maybe it's that we have to accept our forgiveness in order for it to be blotted out.

It is quite plausible in my mind that this man in the parable went looking for the $18 because he felt that his debt wasn't truly forgiven, and that the man he owed in the first place would renig on his offer of debt-elimination.

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So, is God's forgiveness an on-again/off-again proposition?

Gerry

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[:"red"] "But what do you think about this? A man with two sons told the older boy, `Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.' The son answered, `No, I won't go,' but later he changed his mind and went anyway. Then the father told the other son, `You go,' and he said, `Yes, sir, I will.' But he didn't go. Which of the two was obeying his father?"

They replied, "The first, of course."

Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do. For John the Baptist came and showed you the way to life, and you didn't believe him, while tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to turn from your sins and believe him." [/] Matt 21:28-32 NLT

Keep the faith!!

[cardw]

I think the problem with much of these types of topics is that it ignores that Jesus emphasized the kingdom of God within as being available NOW. It becomes quite apparent that when I stop forgiving others, my own internal sense of forgiveness is gone.

I have noted that when people don't have peace, they grind their teeth at night when it goes on for a long time. The nashing and grinding of teeth talked about in the Bible. Have you ever considered that much of this language about hell and salvation is a map of the internal human world.

As long as we try and set up these detailed legal precedents, we are going to miss the deeper spiritual application. This literalization of the mystical aspects of Jesus' teaching creates some pretty ridiculous scenerios for debate. This dialog is one of them. God keeping books, erasing then entering it in again, making his list and checking it twice. Come on, do you really think God is this petty?

Life is so much more open and Grace is so much more free than all this simplified story telling calling itself theology.

Richard

[benherndon]

Where to people get the idea sins are saved up and filed away to be used against us if we decide to leave God finally and completely?

Ben

[Taylor]

When God forgives sin he chooses to forget it forever. However, there can still be consequences of those sins which are natural, such as substance abuse can lead to many diseases. But when God forgives, he throws our sins in the bottom of the sea and puts up a "No Fishing" sign.

[LifeHiscost]

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benherndon said:

Where to people get the idea sins are saved up and filed away to be used against us if we decide to leave God finally and completely?

Ben

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[:"red"] And the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

"Son of man, give your people this message: The good works of righteous people will not save them if they turn to sin, nor will the sins of evil people destroy them if they repent and turn from their sins. When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their good deeds will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins. And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. For instance, they might give back a borrower's pledge, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live. [/] Ezek 33:1,11 NASB 12-16 NLT

It seems from these Scriptures, it isn't the old sins that must be dredged up in order to condemn an individual, but the new transgressions contrary to the former committment to righteousness.

Keep the faith!!

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

Where to people get the idea sins are saved up and filed away to be used against us if we decide to leave God finally and completely?

Ben

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[:"blue"]"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Ex 32:33 NKJ. [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry

I read the text that you quoted to Ben "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Ex 32:33 NKJ.

Can you use that text to say that God will blot out people's names if they sin against Him.

This text is very specific to the offense and using it may lead some to get a distorted picture of God.

As for forgiveness all we have to do is ask. Don't worry about it, our Father is love and Jesus is faithful. Have you found yourself in that situation? Bring to God.

Spiritual life is a continual learning and growing untill we all come to the point where we can actually look lovingly at Jesus face to face in His full glory and not die. By not forgiving a brother you stop that process. If one harbors that unforgivenes they are rejecting the Holy Spirit. It's not so much the act or sin but the rejection, which is the unpardonable sin. Jesus said all manner of sin would be forgiven except for__________ In the parable the one who owed a lot and was forgiven did not let mercy change his heart about the kind of lord he had. His actions show that he thought his lord would still require the money from him.

When Jesus returns that type of person will be looking for rocks and mountains to fall on them not because of this or that sin but because of the rejection of the Holy Spirit.

Norman

[Amelia]

But isnt the sin, rejection of the holy spirit, the one sin God wont forgive?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Amelia,

Yes, that's zaclee what I was saying.

Norman

[Amelia]

Yep, you're right. That's zaclee what you said. Dont know where I was with that. OOPS

[benherndon]

In Adventism there has been a long history of the idea that every thought, every act, even those acts that we could have done had we had the chance, are recorded with great exactness --- sooo, we'd better be real careful every minute of every hour. I've grown up with the feeling similar to what I have when I'm going 64 miles perhour on a 2 lane highway in Plumas county, CA, where 55 is top speed and if you happen to go over 60 down hill some CHP with his radar is lurking behind every curve or tree just to catch you and give you a ticket. I hate it and for that reason I don't like traffic cops very much. I don't blame them for being depressed so much they have company supplied psychologists anytime they want. I'd hate that job, too.

In my many and repeated readings of the NT I do not find that being the way God is looking at us who are 'believers' in Him as the Savior.

I like to concentrate on the texts that show God's love and forgiveness rather than His judgmentalism and perceived meanness. There are some contrasting texts there, I admit. But, I can't live being 'watched like a hawk' every minute of every waking day---I can't take that and don't plan to. I like John 3:16 and the following texts. They give me hope. They represent the Gospel. If I'm gonna be 'watched like a hawk', I'm not sure I even want to play the 'game'.

Fortunately, the way I read the NT I find that if I'm not doing those 'detestable' sins so often described throughout the NT which we are to avoid, I dont' think I have anything to fear really. We as SDAs have been made to think that if we lust after a piece of chocolate cake between meals or eat a piece of meat, or have a passionate feeling on a date with our girlfriend, we are destined to Hades unless we confess and stop doing those things. And, the truth of the NT is that those things don't matter at all---not even a little bit regarding our salvation. (Disclaimer: Don't read into this what I didn't say! )

This picky picky 'religion' is not religion at all--it is an 'obscession'! And, it isn't consistent with New Testament teachings when the whole book is considered and read appropriately. It is what has resulted in a lot of our young people rejecting any religion as a way of life. It is not the "God" we should be preaching about to our kids! I didn't like it when I was a kid.

But, I'm glad I stayed around and I'm glad I finally, at age 55, went to the Bible alone for all, 100%, of my authoritative spiritual information and guidance---particularly the New Testament, too. I worship God as a Savior while I am still a sinner! I don't worship Him as a 'eternal obliterator'watching my every thought and move. I am a human that wasn't born perfect and being perfect is not in my 'genes'! Thank God, I have a Savior!---I really need one. He gives me His Grace and promises me good things eternally!

Amen, anybody else?

Ben

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

As for forgiveness all we have to do is ask.

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[:"red"] "But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong." [/] 1 John 1:9 NLT

[:"red"] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." [/] Acts 2:38 KJV

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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benherndon said:

He gives me His Grace and promises me good things eternally!

Amen, anybody else?

Ben

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Why would you think the Creator of the universe would leave counsel, that is not a result of His grace, wishing those who are without the knowledge of the means to harmony of His creation, might have the greatest possible abilities to reach their highest potential? Which in fulfilling will give them greater reward and glorify their Master by helping others to find the way of salvation, for there is a Way that is right.

[:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." [/] 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

[:"red"] "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." [/]

Proverbs 14:12 KJV

[:"red"] "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." [/] Proverbs 16:25

[:"red"] "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. " [/] John 14:6 NASB

[:"red"] "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." [/] John 3:17 KJV

Keep the faith!!

[Gerr]

If you only talk about our Father's love, are you not then giving a false picture of Him? Is He not also a disciplinarian?

[:"red"]"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

For whom the LORD loves He chastens,

And ascourges every son whom He receives." Heb 12:6 NKJ.[/]

The fact is, a loving Father WILL discipline His children when necessary.

Gerry