Yo yo forgiveness?

[benherndon]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If you only talk about our Father's love, are you not then giving a false picture of Him? Is He not also a disciplinarian?

[:"red"]"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

For whom the LORD loves He chastens,

And ascourges every son whom He receives." Heb 12:6 NKJ.[/]

The fact is, a loving Father WILL discipline His children when necessary.

Gerry

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>>>>I stand by what I said above. In focusing on the Father's forgiving love I am NOT talking about murder, adultery, worshipping idols, stealing and lying and forgetting the poor, the widows and orphans. But I dont' do anything right/or perfectly, and, for example because of a bad relationship one time with an SDA I don't want to deal with that person or his organization again---do you think that's going to send me to the "lake of fire"?

All this talk about how God is going to watch every thought, every wasted moment, every Snicker between meals, and every minute after or before sundown---if that makes someone happy and feel good to be under such scrutiny that effects one's eternal salvation---then.. OK for them....but I'm not interested in that kind of obscessive religion anymore. And.....I can tell you from observing and watching a lot of SDA youth (who aren't youth anymore), and, reading about the investigations of what our youth are thinking and doing, a lot of them are not very happy about being threatened with loss of salvation rather frequently over very minimal so-called 'sins', either.

As I mentioned, there is 'religion' and there is 'obscession' and the latter is where God 'isn't' as far as I can read in the NT.

And as far as the Sabbath is concerned---you all have read my disclaimers and opinions about it. I agree it is the only day God ever specially ordered for His people but He said to not do ANY work on it and all of us, whether we like to admit it or not, specially us doctors and us hospital health personnel, including the food preparers and the janitors, break nearly every Sabbath according to the way it was given to be observed when it was clearly given the first time at Sinai!!!.

I still think the Towtruck driver should NOT be required to give up his Sabbath "Call" just be be called a Seventh Day ADventist.....and that has been the historic picture and historic requirement---and its flat out NOT supported by the New Testament at all anywhere! Just because Jesus went to the synagogue on the SAbbath "as His custom was" is no support for a mandatory Sabbath observance for the non-Jew gentile. That such is mentioned as support by SDAs is observed by the youth I talked with as very weak 'support' when all the rest of the NT is known and studied.

Jesus also observed the Passover....and we don't. Well, if He went to the synagogue on Sabbath and observed the Passover, why don't we also observe the Passover? Show me a verse of tht NT that says we are freed from observing the Passover but we are not freed from observing the Sabbath, or else, go to the 'lake of fire'!! The "Party of the Circumcision" was negated and put down in the NT---read the book of Acts over again! Those who continue to observe "Moses", as with 'authority' over the Christian, have a vail over their appreciation of Grace!!! (Can't you guys read?? )

Let's be intellectually honest with ourselves and what we teach our kids!

And, let's teach His love and Grace a thousand times more than we teach His eternal death threatening 'disciplining'. The Prize is Grace!!! His disciplining to eternal death is NOT the Prize!! Sure if I murder somebody, specially repeatedly, and/or worship an idol instead of God, I deserve some strong discipline!!!! But, Why would I do that? Its just wrong to murder somebody or bring shame and dishonor upon our parents and be pedophiles, etc! You don't even have to be a Christian to know that is wrong!!!

You think sincere worshippers of God who happen to go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday/Sabbath are worse than SDAs who are critical and proud because

other Christians don't?...and that the SDA will be saved to eternity because of his Sabbath worship and the Sunday worshipper of God is going to the 'lake of fire'--well, if you do I'm sorry for you, whoever you are---and my suggestion is that you read the NT only and it alone about 25 times for the next three years.

No I am not trying to destroy Adventism---I'm actually trying to make it more attractive. I've been in this town for 40 yrs now. And, the SDA church is the same size now that it was when I came here and in the meantime the population of this town is 6 time larger. Very few other Christians in this town are interested in Seventh Day Adventism--but I know several who have changed Sunday churches over the years and don't seem to believe which Christian church you go to makes a whole lot of difference. Lots of Adventists are feeling like I do these days. If you don't believe it just watch the eating places fill up with SDAs on Hospitality Lane in Loma Linda or San Berdoo or Redlands about 1 p.m. every Sabbath---that's at least a clue as to what they're thinking. We should be preaching Christ crucified and risen---our Savior!! We aren't preaching a lot of distracting little 'sinny-sin-sins' that are going to get us to the 'lake of fire'. Sure we all watch our actions and thoughts--but not with constant fear of the 'lake of fire'.

Ben

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ben, thank you for your comments. (I went long you may want to print and read) A few things came to mind as I was reading your post. The major points are the ingrained guilt we have and some of the poor preaching, teaching and training that have gone on in the SDA Church. I love our church and would join no other as I have learned so much from The Holy Spirit though His chosen avenues. I am in my heart certain that this is God’s church and the apple of His eye.

We have a problem in our church though and it started long before I became an SDA in 1981. I see it in the way our preachers preach and teach. It starts at the top and comes down. Then to add more confusion we have self proclaimed watchmen who do more damage than good by following other members moves and correcting them with SOP.

A lot have been taught the 27 fundamentals and then baptized without knowing God. This happened to me. It seems to me that the majority of our evangelism has been to convince people of how logical we are as SDAs (therefore you should join us) some do and then they sit and sit and then quit, we wonder why. We talk about love and we point out how the Israelites said, “All that you say we will do,” but we know that you can’t live by the law like that. But yet we are doing just that.

So some of us read SOP and are driven to terror. (Because a lot of what we are reading is bits and pieces of different topics and we get real scared because we think it’s one message - out of context syndrome)

Here’s what has been missing and it so vital to all Christians. Let’s start with our spiritual life. We look at it and say “Well it could be better.” You go to church and the pastor preaches an inspiring sermon and makes an altar call. He asks all to come to the front and just about everybody does. You go home and as the day goes on you settle back into routine. So you ask what is wrong with me. You pray because you’ve heard it works and you’ve had answers before. You decide to study, you go to the satellite seminars, and you start giving Bible studies. Now you’re happy, but your joy is coming from your works and you don’t realize it. Satan is about to mess with your mind and the joy you have will soon be gone. What is the problem? “I want to know” screams the confused soul?

Let’s us use a ship going on a 2000 mile journey to illustrate. If you start out on your trip and you’re 1 degree off course, you will be so far off course after going 2000 miles that you won’t have a clue where you are. This can be compared to what has happened in our church. What if you are studying, praying and giving Bible studies and you have the wrong concept of God? Wow, now there is a problem! Look back in Eden and see Eve chatting with the serpent. She has the right concept of God but then bought into his lies and bam all of a sudden she feels strange goes to Adam and he eats. Then they hide from him whom they loved to be with. This is our problem and I can prove it. First look at this Forum and all the differing descriptions of God. Then look around you at your church for those who are full of joy and are not self seeking and love the Lord. Not many, if any.

Let’s look at the Sabbath and the Passover since you mentioned those. You asked, “Show me a verse of tht NT that says we are freed from observing the Passover but we are not freed from observing the Sabbath, or else, go to the 'lake of fire'!!

In Colossians 2 13 – 22

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

This is talking about ceremonial ordinances. The words “sabbath days” do not include the Sabbath day of the Lord. Leviticus 23: 37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. 39 God here makes a distinction between His Sabbath, gifts offering, vows etc.. and the feast days that are given in Lev 23.

Col Verses 21 - 22 we are told not to use these (meat offerings, drink offerings, sabbath days [Passover and other feasts] and that anyone who would use these as a method of salvation or even at all would perish.) Paul adds after the commandments and doctrines of men, meaning that men (Jews) were commanding and teaching that you have to keep these feasts. Do not keep the Passover there are consequences. This is what Paul meant in Hebrews 10: 26 -27 26 “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” These are those who rejected the sacrifice of Christ and went back to the ceremonial laws and feasts. This should bring relief to those who thought that those verses meant, “If you sin willfully, you’re lost.” Don’t fall into out of context syndrome.

But there is a great reason that you would want to keep Sabbath holy. God gave us his living picture in Jesus and what a picture it is! Love beyond what we ever knew and this is what we need because we are all born with that distorted picture of God that we inherited from Adam and Eve. He has taken the first step towards us in sending Jesus and He says I love you, please don’t let your conscience or feeling tell you otherwise. God is love means so much and that love is so powerful that we cannot stand in His presence as we will literally die of mind and heart failure. That’s why He told Moses, “no one can see me and live.” So now that Jesus has destroyed the lies of the devil it’s up to us to choose to believe that God is love and He has nothing nothing, nothing against us. He sent His Son to die for all mans sins, for all time; there is no need for any other sacrifice. Yet we sit around and worry about sin. Trust me, God did not send His Son to heighten our awareness of sin, that’s what the law does. He sent Him to heighten our awareness of Himself and His love for us because only through a proper understanding of God can you be saved. If you do not believe in Him you will turn from Him when the time is right, when Satan sits in waiting to hit you with all he’s got.

When you see God as He truly is and you believe, life changes and now you are free from working to earn your salvation because of lousy sermons or misread statements or what ever may pull you away from God. Now you live in that rest that Jesus came to give and you show that you have entered in to that rest by observing the Sabbath and ceasing from all work just as our Father did at the creation of this world for us to inhabit. See Hebrews 4:9-10. Oh God is so rich in love and He is so merciful. Let’s give Him the love He so deserves. As for Sabbath, it’s not about what you can and can’t do, it’s a day where you are blest by God in meeting with Him and others to experience the rest He created for that day.

I feel sorry for those who don’t know about or refuse to believe in the Sabbath, but we are to partly blame because we have not searched for ourselves and given to them the true meaning of this wonderful God blessed day. What people are turning from is the misconception of God that they hold as truth. Those Adventists who fall into this group must be careful not to think that just because some Sunday keepers will be in heaven that they can do as they please on God’s Sabbath as they will be sorry; for when Jesus returns He will pronounce the most awful words a soul can hear. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you. They have stuck to their misconceptions and did what they wanted and missed all the blessings God had prepared for them.

In context of what I have written you can understand the last paragraph as something that was brought on by themselves. To go back to what I was saying about out of context syndrome you could take that last paragraph and say this is what Norman thinks about people who don’t keep the Sabbath coupled with their misunderstanding of God and you have a glimpse of what has been going on in our church for years.

Take care and God bless

Norman

[cardw]

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"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Ex 32:33 NKJ.

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This sounds like a childish angry god. More evidence that we need to stop reading the Bible literally.

Richard

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Card, you're right, it does sound like a childish angry god. This is partly why in our church (others as well) we have a problem with getting people to see the love of God and becoming members of the body of Christ. The reason for this is Gerry's use of that verse to answer a question of a different context. Someone asked Gerry where in the world do you get the idea that God blots out people's name for sinning against Him? It was something like that. Then Gerry used that verse, with good intention I’m sure

The problem with using that verse to answer that question is that it leaves us with a picture of God that is distorted and confusing. This can turn people away from God.

The reason God said that and it is literal, was because He was about to start the old covenant (new back them) with His people and He was giving Moses the Ten Commandments and all the other laws. He was preparing His people to give them a land and have this people be a representative of His love so they could introduce the Messiah to the world. In the mean time here they are having a massive wild lewd party, worshipping a golden calf as their god and could care less about God. You can read the whole story to get more details.

At the beginning of a movement or a mission God is very specific about how He wants things done and we should not think it ok to do otherwise. There was the time when Elisha was being mocked by some teens at the beginning of his ministry and they were destroyed by bears. Why? God was starting the ministry of Elisha and it was important to have the people respect him in order for God's word to be taken seriously. You have Ananiah and Saphira who did their lying, you have Moses who was beginning his ministry and didn't have his sons circumcised and the Lord sent an angel to kill him. You have two priests who were destroyed for offering strange fire. Sanctuary services and article of the sanctuary all had important meaning and God was particular there as well. All theses events and others show that When God starts a movement it must be pure and on a solid foundation, God's blueprint. Why? Because God is love and He wants to make sure that everything is done right for the salvation of all people. We may not understand it, but He does and I for one will trust Him over my ideas any day.

So you can see that using that verse to prove that God blots names out of His book because people sin against Him is not sound. God said it there and meant it there but we don't have the right to use it any where else.

Take care and have a great day

Norman

[benherndon]

Norman, thank you for opening your heart and mind .... I really appreciate it and it testifies to your love of God and concern for others of, and not of, this faith. I perceive and appreciate both. I have read some of your posts and it gives me a better insight beyond the few words some others write. By saying this I don't mean to be critical of others---manytimes I am much too "wordy"---this will probably be another time.

The thrust of your post was to support the mandatory Sabbath and by that I presume, correct me if necessary, or, otherwise, being guilty of breaking 'the Law', the Ten Commandments.

I am not against the Sabbath nor am I against keeping it 'holy' or 'set apart' from other days to the extent that is commensurate with the times we live in. I notice that the actual commandment says 'thou shalt not do any work on it." --and, at least, one person who did work on it was stoned to death--- presumably at God's command. I am not in favor of Sunday worship over Sabbath worship and I am somewhat in favor of Sabbath over Sunday ----EXCEPT for the modification necessitated by changing times. People are born to live in their times. God certainly expects them to live in their times. Times do change and....there probably has never been a 'time' when things spiritually changed as prominently as when Jesus was born and lived His 33 yrs on this planet in the FORM of an ordinary man!!!!!

Now, to the hard stuff. Jesus NEVER bolstered mandatory Sabbath observance with His mouth during His ministry. There is no instance in the NT where an example of Sabbath-keeping error was cited by Him as being a bad thing to have done. Jesus Himself said HE worked on the Sabbath and Jesus never said He made it a special thing for Him to have 'rested' on the Sabbath. He had lots of opportunity to do so, though, but never took advantage of those opportunities----- and when He was challenged for apparently 'working' on the Sabbath He admitted He did work---John 5. Jesus also showed His regard for 'the Law' to some extent when He ignored 'the Law's' demand He be 'unclean' for touching the leper, the sick, the crippled, the dead and the blind. Think 'out of the box' for a little while, please.

Now we see that Jesus called Paul to minister for Him, don't we? Peter and Paul said they did not devise clever stories to mislead us. If we can think EGW was called by God then we can surely agree Paul was called by Jesus. Paul's writings are a great portion of the New Testament. If we can accept EGWs writings as from the Lord, then we surely can accept Paul's writings because his writings are included in the Bible!!

Many SDAs will actually accept EGW over Paul--or modify Paul's words to force his writings to agree with hers! This is shocking to me.

What Paul writes in the NT is encouraging to me. Much of EGW's writings are very depressing and threatening to me---I could NEVER measure up! Paul gives me more hope than EGW does because EGW makes everything tasty, neat and fashionable, movies, sports and fun, to be sin of some sort.

Paul, in 2Cor 3 is clear that the Ten Commandments were to "fade" in glory, be 'done away' and/or 'abolished' and 'cast out' as an authority over us Christians. Those who continue to 'read Moses' as if an 'authority' (the Ten Commandments and probably the Torah, too)have a 'vail' over their understanding and comprehension of Christ's Grace. That's what it says in 2Cor 3! Many other Bible interpreters agree with that. So those who put the Ten Commandments and the Torah in as high a position on the 'spiritual' level as the New TEstament are making a Biblical error!! Again 2Cor 3 says the very letters written on stone tablets, which obviously refers to the Ten Commandments were to lose their 'authority' over the Christian after Christ brings His Grace to us---which means that we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath as was the Jew around Mt Sinai!!! We can keep it if we want to or feel it is necessary BUT we are not to force it upon anyone else---see Rom 14

Gal 3:25 says, flat out, that after Christ comes we are no longer under the supervision of 'the Law'. It doesn't break 'the Law' down into ceremonial, moral, civic and health. That it doesn't is another proof 'the Law' is a unity which, we either keep all of it, or, we keep NONE of it!Gal 5:3 This is hard for SDAs to accept due to our church teachings and writings which take exception to this text quite obviously---or don't take the text seriously and rationalize around it by opinion rather than other NT (Biblical) support!

Remember the New Testament is 'new' and what is 'new' takes precedence over what is 'old' and was to fade away. See Rom 8--last verses. If the "old" was a failure, then we are bid to support the 'new'. See Heb 7 and 8.

Eph 2 says that Christ in His flesh abolished the commandments with their regulations----how much more plain does one want it? SDAs attempt to deflate this by saying it is the 'enmity' that is abolished, not the commandments with their regulations! This is foolishness and either and appears to me either an ignorant or dishonest interpretation intended to support a very old teaching that was obviously in error. Consider these texts again. And don't forget 1Tim 1 where it says 'the Law' was not for the 'good man', but, rather it was for the Godless, and, evil sinner.

Col 2---where it says we were dead in our sins and in the uncircumcision of our sinfulness, God made us alive with Christ!! Think about that condition we were in but were 'saved' by Christ! How? He forgave and cancelled all our sins by cancelling the written code and the 'record' of them ('the cheirographon' record or 'bond'---using human terms for clarity) and the regulations, and all those things that 'were against' us or condemning us---He took them all away by nailing them to His cross. What did He nail to the Cross? Was it only the record of past sins? If so, what about our new sins committed after he nailed the 'cheirographon-ic' 'record' of our past sins to the cross? Surely anybody with an open interpretation can see that He did away with whatever it was that caused the 'record of our sins' to have been recorded against us in the first place---and, so, He fixed it so it didn't happen to us again!

So, also, continuing in Col 2:16, Paul has advised us to not take seriously anybody who might try to teach us about what is wrong we are doing in eating and drinking, and that we should ignore any obligations about various religious festivals and old New Moon celebrations, or a sabbath day. Now just how one know 'sabbath day' means something other than the Holy Sabbath Day of the 4th commandment? How is it that SDAs seem to agree that 'sabbath day' doesn't refer to The Sabbath of the 4th commandment? Aren't we getting that from SDA literature instead of the Bible?

The New Amer. Standard Bible is said by SDA Greek scholars to be the most authoritative and correct translation of the Bible into modern English. Col 2:16, "a Sabbath day---" see the margin reference is Mark 2:27--"And he was saying to them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Doesn't that margin reference to Mark 2:27 show that "a sabbath day" refers to THE Sabbath day? It seems to me that denila that 'a sabbath day' doesn't refer to THE SABBATH of the 4th commdment is incorrect!

Now, SDAs routinely misintepret Mark 2:27 (above) and other similar texts to mean when it says "the Sabbath was made for man; not man for the Sabbath."---- They think that confirms mandatory Sabbath observance when it actually means, in the context of Christ's buildup to that sentence, the exact opposite!

Furthermore, let us go back and read Lev 23 again. This is what it says:

"The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, 'The Lord's appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations---My appointed times are these: For in six days work may be done; but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings." What follows is the continuation of the list of additional holy convocations, the Passover, the feast of Weeks, the feast of Trumpets and finally the Day of Atonement. Then, there is no more discussion of feasts and holy convocations. But, NOTE THIS, the Sabbath is a convocation!!! Read it again.

Where does one get the idea the Sabbath is NOT one of the Lev 23 convocations? You get that, I believe, from SDA literature---but you will not find evidence in the Bible that the Sabbath is 'moral' and not 'ceremonial'. I have looked for it repeatedly. If I need to be corrected, please do so with some texts from the Bible alone.

Please note the next chapter of Colossians, Col 3, called "Rules for Holy Living". Does one notice any reference to keeping the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments? I don't think so.

I don't think its Biblically right for us SDAs to condemn other Christians who do not believe in mandatory Sabbath observance. Read Rom 14:5: "One man considers on day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." So you are convinced and I am convinced but it is not right for us to be judging others who are not convinced. I see their decision about it and understand they are not following the Pope, but they are observing the resurrection day----and they are separating themselves from Judaism.

Now I must once again make my disclaimer: I am not against going to church and refraining if possible and reasonable from working on the Sabbath. But just who has to work on the Sabbath? Who, for instance, is going to maintain the electric respirators that were keeping people alive in Charity Hospital in New ORleans this past two weeks when all power went off? Nobody! for very long---and the doctor there who was on TV this morning said some people died because the ventilators could not be kept going!!! This is an example of WHO MUST WORK on the Sabbath---NOT ONLY the doctors who Gerry says in effect are excused because they are 'healing' the sick---but it also means the guys who know how to manage the ventilators, the electrical workers manning the turbines, dams and generating facilities, and the lights, and the telephone and communications people, AND THE PEOPLE THAT ASSIST IN THEM GETTING TO WORK---like public transportation, and gasoline stations when they run out of gas, have a flat tire or an accident!!!! Please everybody, WAKE UP!!! Those people must not be required to resign from their jobs in order to meet you in SS class or join with you in listening to the MIssion Story,and finally the choir and the preacher!!!!!!!!!! Let's get with it, folks!! Let's welcome those people to our church family by baptism EVEN IF THEY MUST TAKE CALL AND WORK ON SABBATHS AT LEAST SOME OF THE TIME!! They can have their families go to church and learn about and worship with us and pay their obeisances while Daddy is taking call with the Towtruck Company!!!!!

Sooo, I have no argument agasint Sabbath worship but it obviously is not required of the Christian believer IF he better serves humanity by working on the Sabbath!! '

Yes, the Sabbath is a great time for worship and being with family and recharging for the next week, etc etc, ad infinitum---but I've got to tell you something, that Sunday worshippers feel pretty much the same way--my office lady was Dutch Reformed and she observed Sunday almost exactly as SDAs observe the SAbbath. No work, no shows, no sports, no 'fun', all devotion and piety!!! Do SDAs think SDAs have a 'corner' on 'devotion and piety'??---Sorry, open up your eyes and explore the situation. Some do and some don't. AS reagards SDAs, too, SOME DO AND SOME DON'T!

Love you all but prophet, EGW, has told us to go to the Bible alone, and nothing else, for all doctrines and reproofs and I suggest if we are suppportive of her, that's exactly what she meant for all of us to do. "Don't you quote Sr. White," she said, until you know the Bible really really well. Well, that's exactly what I've done and ..... just look what its gotten me into with some of my fellow SDAs.

I am a Sabbatarian---and I've never considered joining any other church. I am not a Sunday-tarian---but I'm a bit tired of hearing how 'right' we are by observing Sabbath over Sunday---at least obliquely implying those Sunday observers are in more in danger of losing their salvation than we are. I don't believe the NT teaches that.

Best regards to all........Ben

[Robert]

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the final disposition or blotting out of sin in a person's life does not take place until the person's case comes up in the judgment when the destiny of each individual is fixed

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Let's say my name comes up in the judgment and I happen to pass because I've made sure that all my "T's" are crossed and my "i's" dotted....What happens when I sin after that? And please do not tell me that I cannot sin....I can only cease from sin IF I fully submit my will to God's will. And even if I figured how to fully walk in the Spirit and live perfectly in sinful flesh I wouldn't realize it. In other words if I didn't feel like a law-keeper after probation closed I might give up my faith and separate myself from my only source of heaven - Jesus Christ.

The issue in the judgment is not how good we are, but if we have made Christ our righteousness....Are we depending on Him by faith alone or partially our righteousness?

After probation is closed our faith will be unshakable [we have been sealed] because we have fully matured. The Bible says, "And they loved not their lives unto death." We are standing solid on the truth as it is "in Christ."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ben, Thank you for taking time to reply to me. You had a lot to say and I know it was a good release for you. You have every right to say what you did and how you said it. I understand how you feel about many of the things you wrote. You sound like a man that is frustrated with the dishonesty in the church.

I cannot answer your post now because I just don't have the time but with prayer, the grace and Spirt of God I will address every concern and disagreement you have brought up. You will have a clear Biblical answer for those concerns and the reasons why. I don't like to say things without reasons and expect people to believe it. I am not a yes man and don't expect others to be either.

The first thing I can tell you is that of the thoughts and truths that I post I do not go to SDA dictionaries or commentaries because I believe that they are towing the line and are not being original in their thoughts & writings. I don't say that about EGW though, but I don't use her writing to prove a point here.

I praise God for this opportunity, please pray that God will give me clarity and wisdom. I may start posting on Saturday night. I will start a new post and let you know about it.

Take care and God bless you

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Robert good to see ya again, say hi to the wife for us.

God bless,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

God said it there and meant it there but we don't have the right to use it any where else.

Take care and have a great day

Norman

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To help a person who doesn't believe the Holy Bible to be any better than other books written by man, for personal guidance, is a commendable pursuit, Norman. However the opinion that God's expressed guidance must always be in the same context, to be valid, is like suggesting the alphabet must always be in the same order when written down by an author as he writes a book, for his novel to be understood.

The idea of using context as a primary way of interpreting the Bible, is another way of reducing our Father's ideas into man's miniscule intelligence, before it can be understood. It limits the understanding of His wisdom to the intelligencia of a race, the human race, and proscribes the potential of men and woman to the fallen minds of individual created beings, who themselves have difficulty keeping their minds from being bordered by the arrogance common to the vast majority of humanity.

[:"red"] "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. " [/] Isaiah 55:8 AMP

[:"red"] "Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.

There are three things that will endure--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love." [/]

1 Cor 13:12,13 NLT

[:"red"] "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. " [/] John 16:13 NLT

Keep the faith!!

[benherndon]

Norman, the subject of this thread is "Yo Yo Forgiveness?"

as I recall. I believe that when God forgives He does not 'take it back' no matter what happens afterwards. If a person who is a good man turns evil in his heart, spirit,and actions his previous 'good man ' status will not 'save' him. But, similarly in reverse, the man who was evil through and through at one time becomes converted his bad thoughts, spirit and actions will not be remembered and he will be 'saved' if he continues in those good ways. However, the parameters of this 'being good' or 'being bad' are not fixed----and, it also needs to be said that all the 'good' a man has done in his life will do him no good if he finally abandons the Lord and begins to practice sin without regard to God or the consequences to himself and others for his gross sinning.

Please do not conclude anything other than what I have admitted in my writings. It seems the harder one tries to clear up one's meaning or what one is saying in these posts, like "Murphy's Law"---the harder you try to make it clear, the muddy-er it becomes.

So we've both explained our beliefs and there isn't much more to say. We seem to disagree some what and Rom 14 says, that's OK. Let every man be convinced in his own mind. Its obvious you are a fine man, a believer in Him and His resurrection, and are trying to live the Christian life as you see it. I am too. So-o-o we'll have the opportunity to work this out someday in the 'hereafter' perhaps.

Bless you and all other folks and lurkers, too. If you come on back this weekend I'll be looking forward to read what you have to say.

Ben

[cardw]

The problem I have with all of these apologetics is that we can easily come up with better methods of managing an out of control population without threatening their eternal salvation or killing people. The problem with killing people is that you have pretty much ruled out any chance of restoration and those that are left are doing it out of fear. In my experience fear only creates more fear. And some of the things that God killed people for seemed out of place compared to those things that didn't have a death penalty.

Why kill someone for gathering wood on the Sabbath and yet let David live after he committed adultery and murder? This is a crazy God or more likely David had far more political clout than the poor sap gathering wood and the apologetics written into the narrative couldn't really have God killing such a popular king.

If the Bible is God's best method of communication, then I would say that God is a pretty poor communicator. We simply assume this about the Bible because we have been indoctrinated into it. I don't believe the Bible would have quite the influence it does if we came on it without all the cultural inertia behind it.

Richard

[Robert]

Quote:

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Why kill someone for gathering wood on the Sabbath and yet let David live after he committed adultery and murder? This is a crazy God or more likely David had far more political clout than the poor sap gathering wood and the apologetics written into the narrative couldn't really have God killing such a popular king.

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Some good points....

I see these two events being separated by two covenants...the old and the new. Under the old, death....

Rob

[Gerr]

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cardw said:

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"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Ex 32:33 NKJ.

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This sounds like a childish angry god. More evidence that we need to stop reading the Bible literally.

Richard

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[:"blue"] So, God is so loving that nobody will be lost, eh Richard? I suppose we shouldn't read the destruction of the wicked in the Flood too literally, eh? Ditto the destruction of the wicked in Sodom & Gomorrah? Ditto the destruction of Babylon in the night of their wicked revelry? The destruction of Jerusalem in their rejection of the Prince of Life? The destruction of New Orleans nothing but the result of natural disaster & has no spiritual significance? Dream on, Richard. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Quote:

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cardw said:

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"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Ex 32:33 NKJ.

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This sounds like a childish angry god. More evidence that we need to stop reading the Bible literally.

Richard

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[:"blue"] So, God is so loving that nobody will be lost, eh Richard? I suppose we shouldn't read the destruction of the wicked in the Flood too literally, eh? Ditto the destruction of the wicked in Sodom & Gomorrah? Ditto the destruction of Babylon in the night of their wicked revelry? The destruction of Jerusalem in their rejection of the Prince of Life? The destruction of New Orleans nothing but the result of natural disaster & has no spiritual significance? Dream on, Richard. [/]

Gerry

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I understand Richard's conundrum....The problem is not so much the Bible, but how we interpret it....The Bible can only be understood through God's Spirit....Otherwise we can make the Bible say anything we want it to.

The subject you brought up was already discussed under my post, "Examining God's character- His attributes". If you re-read that post you will find out that God doesn't destroy...God doesn't kill.

And by the way...shame on you for concluding that God caused the destruction of New Orleans. Yes...there's some wickedness in that city...but to blame the destruction of that city on God is not sound.

Be careful...very careful what you lay at the door of the Lord.

Robert

[benherndon]

Quote:

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So, God is so loving that nobody will be lost, eh Richard? I suppose we shouldn't read the destruction of the wicked in the Flood too literally, eh? Ditto the destruction of the wicked in Sodom & Gomorrah? Ditto the destruction of Babylon in the night of their wicked revelry? The destruction of Jerusalem in their rejection of the Prince of Life? The destruction of New Orleans nothing but the result of natural disaster & has no spiritual significance? Dream on, Richard.

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>>>Just for discussion purposes---Since God created us, and by 'us' I mean you and me, does He have any responsibility for how we are prone to sin? If He has a 'plan' for our salvation, does He have any responsibility to see that the 'plan' works? I didn't make me. He made me--at least that's a doctrine of the church--the we have been created!

So-o-o-o, did we ever suppose that God has made it finally quite simple to be saved? Maybe that's why He's listed via his servant writers in the NT the simpler method of being saved than He used with the Israelites at Mt Sinai. Wasn't it He that set up the Old Covenant? Didn't He know it was going to fail? Isn't there a teaching point for us all today in the failed experiences of the B.C. generations? The NT says that what has happened in the past and written about was done so we could take lesson from it and, perhaps, realize how simple Christ has made it for us to be saved? Didn't Christ say that He died for OUR sins? Was it only those committed before He died? Isn't it also for those committed today and tomorrow and all the time for those who believe in and trust Him as their Savior?

Why do you like to always remind us of the 'meanness' of God. Don't try to tell me God doesn't kill or order to be killed people according to the Bible and to EGW. Just read Early Writings again, folks.

I tend to agree that those who believe in God with respect and honor to Him will be saved even though they are sinners now and will be until He commits a miracle in their characters when He comes. Many thinkers and Bible students today while not believing in 'universalism' strictly, do believe God will save the 'good people' even though they may have to work on Sabbath! If the Sabbath issue is going to be the final thing, the final testing point, then the New Testament sure has failed, severely and dramaticallly, to warn us all.

Again, I'm not against Sabbath observance but I am opposed to mandating it in our proselytism because there is absolutely no indication in the NT, the New Covenant, that it is mandated anymore than Passover anc Circumcision.

We have no business proudly comparing our Sabbath worship as being a full obedience to 'the Law' while the Sunday Christians are being fooled, suckered and tricked into believing their worship of God and respect for Him in their hearts will result in their being put in the 'lake of fire' while some proud, naughty insulting spirited Sabbath keeper is rewarded with eternal life. That's not a God that I could worship---maybe you can---but I can't anymore since I've read, read and reread the New Testament which is the ONLY source of authoritative information about how the Christian believer in Christ and God should live his life.

We are all sinners and even I can tell it and if I can tell it then God surely can much easier.

Ben

[Robert]

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Don't try to tell me God doesn't kill or order to be killed people according to the Bible and to EGW. Just read Early Writings again, folks.

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Then if he's in the killing business why not take Satan out?

The more I study the Bible (not that I am a scholar) the more that I realize that the Bible if fully of metaphors and paradoxes.

Take for example the following paradox:

"Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God." 3 John 3:11

"I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Is. 45:6,7

[cardw]

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So, God is so loving that nobody will be lost, eh Richard? I suppose we shouldn't read the destruction of the wicked in the Flood too literally, eh? Ditto the destruction of the wicked in Sodom & Gomorrah? Ditto the destruction of Babylon in the night of their wicked revelry? The destruction of Jerusalem in their rejection of the Prince of Life? The destruction of New Orleans nothing but the result of natural disaster & has no spiritual significance? Dream on, Richard.

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I happen to believe that is what the AUTHORS of the Bible believed. I find it very hard to believe that an all powerful, intelligent God would come up with those types of immature solutions. They are also contradictory to Jesus' teachings of abandoning violence as a solution for justice and reconciliation.

This slavish dedication to a literal understanding of the Bible is not based on any direct experience, nor does it hold up to history, nor does it hold up to reason. And yet fundamentalists spout this stuff like they have just come down from heaven with an official mandate from God himself. When asked to honestly look at the evidence, they often simply ignore it or they attack the character of the person they disagree with.

I have dialoged on this long enough to realize that those who hold these views often reflect this view of a violent God within their own methods of communication. They are often bullies. When I first began to discuss these questions, I was still somewhat on the fence, but based on the fruit that I have observed coming from many of those who hold these fundamentalist views, I no longer have any doubts about the toxic nature of this type of belief system.

If you can't look at the evidence that history and direct experience provide us, at least look at the fruit of this approach to God.

Richard

[Robert]

Quote:

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Robert said:

The more I study the Bible (not that I am a scholar) the more that I realize that the Bible if fully of metaphors and paradoxes.

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Here's a metaphorical statement that is in many instances taken as factual:

• Eccl. 12:6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed , the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed ;

  7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit ["breath"] will return to God who gave it. 8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Does our breath actually go back to God? No....The whole context is couched in symbolism and metaphors.

The reality is this: We return to dust...we cease to exist...our life returns metaphorically to God because it is God who gave us life from Adam.

But if we take this literal, then you must assume that our spirit (some ghostly form) returns to God....Of course such a gross lie undermines man's sinfulness....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life,

Study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word. 2 Tim 2:15 have you ever read that before? What is Paul talking about if not context.

Happy Sabbath,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ben,

I was actually planning on dropping by you place this w/e and hashing this out.

Take care my brother and have a blessed Sabbath.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Richard,

I have had my life changed by reading the Bible. It has been my greatest source of getting to know my Father and my Brother, Jesus. You don't seem to believe in the Bible as God's inspired word and method of communication to His created beings, us. If that is the case, how can there ever be any agreement in spiritual matters with you and those who believe in the Bible? I haven't been in CA for too long but if what I said is true it must be difficult for you to have doctrinal discussions, I mean it must be frustrating for you.

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever said anythng to you to make you want to reconsider your beliefs?

Just wondering,

Never mind that question I just read your last post.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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benherndon said:

I've read, read and reread the New Testament which is the **ONLY source of authoritative information about how the Christian believer in Christ and God should live his life.**

Ben

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Re: ** **

Ben, I'm so pleased to hear you say that, although I am sorry for all the promises of the Old testament you must search for anew in the New Testament, in order to achieve our Father's full potential for you.

[:"red"] "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. " [/]

1 John 5:1-3 NASB

[:"red"] "But He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by His scourging we are healed.

As a result of the anguish of His soul,

He will see it and be satisfied;

By His knowledge the Righteous One,

My Servant, will justify the many,

As He will bear their iniquities. " [/]

Isaiah 53:5,11 NASB

[:"red"] "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot

From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,

And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,

And honor it, desisting from your own ways,

From seeking your own pleasure

And speaking your own word,

Then you will take delight in the LORD,

And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;

And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,

For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." [/] Isaiah 58"13,14 NASB

[:"red"] "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;And the government will rest on His shoulders;And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." [/] Isaiah 9:6 NASB

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

to blame the destruction of that city on God is not sound.

Be careful...very careful what you lay at the door of the Lord.

Robert

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A number of us, who believe our Father to be all powerful, were discussing this very subject this last Sabbath. And I'm assuming that each of you who are following this thread, also believe God to be limitless in His power to do good.

There never was a full consensus in the discussion group, probably for more than just the one reason that they did not wish to lay at a loving God's feet, the responsibility for eradicating evil in the manner of destroying those who do not wish to give it up.

However, it takes more than the consensus of a world full of fallen, sinful human beings to determine what is true. And rather than argue, Father kept me from stating a simple truth while in the middle of a hotly contested debate, of which I believe, no one of the brethren while they were in a sane state of mind, would disagree; that while we may not, or possibly cannot, determine with certainty whether the destruction was a judgement of God, it cannot be argued that it was in His judgement to hold back intervention until late in the progress of what could have been the destruction of untold thousands.

[:"red"] "Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' " [/] Ezekiel 33:11 NASB

[:"red"] "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." [/] Luke 13:4,5 NASB

Keep the faith!!

[Gerr]

Quote:

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cardw said:

Quote:

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So, God is so loving that nobody will be lost, eh Richard? I suppose we shouldn't read the destruction of the wicked in the Flood too literally, eh? Ditto the destruction of the wicked in Sodom & Gomorrah? Ditto the destruction of Babylon in the night of their wicked revelry? The destruction of Jerusalem in their rejection of the Prince of Life? The destruction of New Orleans nothing but the result of natural disaster & has no spiritual significance? Dream on, Richard.

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I happen to believe that is what the AUTHORS of the Bible believed. I find it very hard to believe that an all powerful, intelligent God would come up with those types of immature solutions. They are also contradictory to Jesus' teachings of abandoning violence as a solution for justice and reconciliation.

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[:"blue"]You won't find one Bible author holding or endorsing that notion. [/]

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Norman said:

Hi Life,

Study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, **rightly dividing the word.** 2 Tim 2:15 have you ever read that before? What is Paul talking about if not context.

Happy Sabbath,

Norman

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Thank you for the good wishes. And a happy Sabbath to you also.

Re: ** ** Insofar as "dividing rightfully", I would consider it stretching the meaning of the word "dividing", to propose that it meant "keep it all together under the same set of circumstances". The experiences of men are so dissimilar, that to make the principles of God necessarily fit only where the experiences are the same would be tantamount to having to have the same amount of principles as there are different circumstances in every human being's life; that making it, in a practical sense, impossible to follow, let alone know, where the principle was that needed to be followed under any certain set of known circumstances.

And if that is the case, this Scripture becomes more than just rhetorical questions, but a call to take on a task that we can never hope to fulfill.

[:"red"] “Can you search out the deep things of God?

Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?" [/] Job 11:7 NKJV

Keep the faith!!