Suicide...

[Planey]

Recent events have led me to wonder...

If someone ends their own life, are they automatically sure of not being saved?

Graeme

[Gerr]

With my present understanding of God's character, no. We put down our beloved pets to spare them suffering. Would God be less kind to someone whose pain has become unbearable?

[phkrause]

Recent events have led me to wonder...

If someone ends their own life, are they automatically sure of not being saved?

Graeme

I would like to believe that God takes into consideration our pain. He can read our hearts, as others cannot.

[Hair]

Having people with loved ones, and having had to deliver the message at several funerals where this has occurred, I have put much thought into this. I do not think that suicide is automatic eternal destruction... My reasons.

1.) God's grace and only God knows the heart of man - we can never be certain of another's salvation.

2.) People in that condition are usually sick, sick mentally, they are so twisted they can not help it. Just as a person with cancer can not prevent their own death. The suicide person too, has died as a result of a sickness.

Ironically, the last funeral I did of a suicide victim, I walked out on the front porch beforehand, and people were saying to me things like, "Pastor, I just don't understand why anyone would commit suicide." while they were standing there smoking a cigarette. (Suicide on the installment plan.) We always need to watch how we judge.

3.) Samson committed suicide - he's listed in the faith chapter of Hebrews.

4.) If you want to get technical and arguable, Jesus committed suicide for us. Samson being a symbol of Christ in that way of course.

I could ramble on, but the short of the matter is only God knows the true circumstances - no, I do not personally believe suicide equals automatic eternal death.

[debbym]

I am ok to let God Judge, and have no need to judge any suicide victim.

I do know that Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship...

is God's desire for everyone.

[cricket]

Recent events have led me to wonder...

If someone ends their own life, are they automatically sure of not being saved?

Graeme

How can you know what that person was sure of before they died?

[Gibs]

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

And so they have just killed themself and are now in danger of the Judgment.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Hair]

Whooowee, I'm glad God IS judge... I'd hate to fall into the hands of some of you guys

II Sam 24.14 - And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.

[Gail]

[phkrause]

[Woody]

[Stewart (SDA)]

Suicide is always a tragedy, and it is often a highly emotive subject, but I think we do have a few relevant thoughts in the Spirit of Prophecy.

"Do not, I entreat of you, sit down in hopeless despair and do nothing. Do not heed any further the great tempter, that it is no use for you to try... You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins." (TSB 143)

"To shorten life by self-murder is a breach of the sixth precept of God's law. He has not granted us permission to commit suicide gradually any more than he has given us a permit to commit suicide suddenly." (HR Jan 1, 1873)

_____________

"If any man defile [margin: "destroy"] the temple of God, him shall God destroy..." (1Cor 3:17)

[joeb]

I have to agree with Stewart(SDA). Is there really any difference between physical suicide and the person who, out of discouragement, depression, etc... turns away from God permanently? Would their end not be the same?

[Gail]

To commit suicide slowly via overeating or drinking, etc is a different attitude than despondency. God knows the heart and judges motives. There was a reason Samson was included in the Faith Hall of Fame. Perhaps it was so that we wouldn't have a judgmental or critical spirit.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Suicide is always a tragedy, and it is often a highly emotive subject, but I think we do have a few relevant thoughts in the Spirit of Prophecy.

"Do not, I entreat of you, sit down in hopeless despair and do nothing. Do not heed any further the great tempter, that it is no use for you to try... You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins." (TSB 143)

"To shorten life by self-murder is a breach of the sixth precept of God's law. He has not granted us permission to commit suicide gradually any more than he has given us a permit to commit suicide suddenly." (HR Jan 1, 1873)

sorry, but the above quotes just make me angry...especially the "your case is hopeless" phrase...

EGW was human, but OBVIOUSLY never was in a situation where she felt COMPLETELY friendless, COMPLETELY discouraged, COMPLETELY alone with her problems. She had NO training in counseling or psychology. Trying to tell someone who is suicidal that they will be eternally damned if they go through with the action, is NOT helpful. It's using scare tactics to make someone stay in (to that person) an untenable situation, without giving any help or alternatives whatsoever. I think it's a disgusting maneuver.

[Hair]

You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins." (TSB 143)

"To shorten life by self-murder is a breach of the sixth precept of God's law. He has not granted us permission to commit suicide gradually any more than he has given us a permit to commit suicide suddenly." (HR Jan 1, 1873)

There's your answer, that closes this topic. EGW said the suicide person is lost... therefore they are... end of discussion.

[Hair]

[joeb]

Quote:

Suicide is always a tragedy, and it is often a highly emotive subject, but I think we do have a few relevant thoughts in the Spirit of Prophecy.

"Do not, I entreat of you, sit down in hopeless despair and do nothing. Do not heed any further the great tempter, that it is no use for you to try... You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins." (TSB 143)

"To shorten life by self-murder is a breach of the sixth precept of God's law. He has not granted us permission to commit suicide gradually any more than he has given us a permit to commit suicide suddenly." (HR Jan 1, 1873)

sorry, but the above quotes just make me angry...especially the "your case is hopeless" phrase...

EGW was human, but OBVIOUSLY never was in a situation where she felt COMPLETELY friendless, COMPLETELY discouraged, COMPLETELY alone with her problems. She had NO training in counseling or psychology. Trying to tell someone who is suicidal that they will be eternally damned if they go through with the action, is NOT helpful. It's using scare tactics to make someone stay in (to that person) an untenable situation, without giving any help or alternatives whatsoever. I think it's a disgusting maneuver.

rudywoofs,

Actually Ellen White dealt with a lot of depression. In the earlier years of her marriage she would get hit with bouts of depression that left her unable to even get out of bed. That's pretty serious levels of depression. So, to say she had no idea as to what people who suffer from depression deal with is not true.

I agree with her statements and I've dealt with some pretty serious depression at times in my life also. Her statements on suicide had an influence on me in deciding not to pull to the trigger.

[Hair]

To commit suicide slowly via overeating or drinking, etc is a different attitude than despondency. God knows the heart and judges motives. There was a reason Samson was included in the Faith Hall of Fame. Perhaps it was so that we wouldn't have a judgmental or critical spirit.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

In the earlier years of her marriage she would get hit with bouts of depression that left her unable to even get out of bed. That's pretty serious levels of depression.

women in Victorian times often had the vapors...it didn't mean they were depressed

Quote:

to say she had no idea as to what people who suffer from depression deal with is not true.

I didn't say she had "no idea what people who suffer from depression deal with"...

suicide is not always done by depressed individuals...

[cricket]

I agree completely with rudywoofs. Ellen White's statements would have not been helpful to me (and for the record, I did "pull the trigger"). There is no way any of us can measure the severity of EGW's depression to gauge whether or not she could sympathize with those who do suffer.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hair,

Please forgive me for asking (I don't want to offend you, especially over a subject like suicide,) but may I ask for clarification? Your reply seemed definite when you said, "There's your answer...", and yet you also appear to be encouraging doubts/disagreement by giving thumbs-up to expressions of anger, etc.

[joeb]

;

women in Victorian times often had the vapors...it didn't mean they were depressed

She stated she had serious bouts with depression. Serious enough that she couldn't get out of bed.

[joeb]

I agree completely with rudywoofs. Ellen White's statements would have not been helpful to me (and for the record, I did "pull the trigger"). There is no way any of us can measure the severity of EGW's depression to gauge whether or not she could sympathize with those who do suffer.

When a person says they were too depressed to get out of bed, it's a pretty good indication as to the seriousness of the depression as from everything I've read on depression, and experienced, not being able to get out of bed is never considered to be mild depression.

[Hair]

I know this is a little off topic, but anyway: My mother suffers with depression at times and she DOES get so bad that she can not get out of bed. Sometimes she will take to the bed for over a week. I go to her home and set beside her in the bed and talk about Jesus and the good things of life. Sometimes I sing. Sometimes I just keep quiet and lay beside her and hug her. She has fought this her whole life and when I was a child it was very difficult for me to understand why etc. It weighs heavily upon my father and the whole family suffers severely when one member has it. I pray for anyone who suffers with this horrible problem... I know first hand... it is horrible.