Suicide...

[joeb]

I know this is a little off topic, but anyway: My mother suffers with depression at times and she DOES get so bad that she can not get out of bed. Sometimes she will take to the bed for over a week. I go to her home and set beside her in the bed and talk about Jesus and the good things of life. Sometimes I sing. Sometimes I just keep quiet and lay beside her and hug her. She has fought this her whole life and when I was a child it was very difficult for me to understand why etc. It weighs heavily upon my father and the whole family suffers severely when one member has it. I pray for anyone who suffers with this horrible problem... I know first hand... it is horrible.

Sorry to hear this, Hair. I'll put your mother in my prayers.

I've never been to point of not being able to get out of bed, but I've been pretty seriously depressed at times. I have slept 16 to 18 hours a day.

[Planey]

Thank you all for your input. Greatly appreciated.

However I'd have to say I'm still not sure about the answer to my question in the OP.

I did like the idea that we can't be sure, though.

Graeme

[Ted Oplinger]

A few points...

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

[Ted Oplinger]

I know this is a little off topic, but anyway: My mother suffers with depression at times and she DOES get so bad that she can not get out of bed. Sometimes she will take to the bed for over a week. I go to her home and set beside her in the bed and talk about Jesus and the good things of life. Sometimes I sing. Sometimes I just keep quiet and lay beside her and hug her. She has fought this her whole life and when I was a child it was very difficult for me to understand why etc. It weighs heavily upon my father and the whole family suffers severely when one member has it. I pray for anyone who suffers with this horrible problem... I know first hand... it is horrible.

Matthew 25:35, 36 speaks of the sheep...visiting those in prison as visiting Christ in prison. I can speak from experience that major depression is a prison that does not willingly let its prisoners go...because it not only imprisons the afflicted, but those around the afflicted as well.

Major depression is not too far away from suicidal thought.

May God bless your ministry to your mother, Hair.

Blessings,

[phkrause]

[joeb]

I raise my hand and ask a question: If God can forgive a person who has smoked continuously, and cut short their life by lung and/or bladder cancer - by their asking at the end of life, why cannot God take into account the despondency thrust upon a person by Satan? Does not the Blood of Jesus cover ALL sins?

In what context are you placing this? Someone who has not known it is wrong to smoke according to God's desires for us? Or some other context? If the first, then I see it as nothing more than God forgiving us for the rest of our sins. When we finally ask God for forgiveness isn't relative to our forgiveness, as only God knows if our request for forgiveness comes from a heart of repentance.

Now, can we continue in a known sin, never repent and ask for forgiveness for it, and still be saved? That's another issue altogether.

I think this is the paradigm from which Ellen White is looking at this, and I think it's the right one, for we can never ask for forgiveness after the fact in a suicide. We can't ask God to forgive us before we sin--any sin--for that shows premeditation on our part, and no repentance and turning away from the sin.

[debbym]

Quote:

I think this is the paradigm from which Ellen White is looking at this, and I think it's the right one, for we can never ask for forgiveness after the fact in a suicide. We can't ask God to forgive us before we sin--any sin--for that shows premeditation on our part, and no repentance and turning away from the sin.

not all suicides are alike

Sampson's suicide was not the same as Pilate's, and Judas's.

God alone is the judge in these cases.

a person in a psychotic episode has a different accountability.

God alone can measure the fine balances of reason and choice, and illness. Elijah wanted to end his life, but later ended up being translated.

King David said to God, "In my affliction i would have died if i had not know you".

[Windsor]

Quote:

Suicide is always a tragedy, and it is often a highly emotive subject, but I think we do have a few relevant thoughts in the Spirit of Prophecy.

"Do not, I entreat of you, sit down in hopeless despair and do nothing. Do not heed any further the great tempter, that it is no use for you to try... You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins." (TSB 143)

"To shorten life by self-murder is a breach of the sixth precept of God's law. He has not granted us permission to commit suicide gradually any more than he has given us a permit to commit suicide suddenly." (HR Jan 1, 1873)

sorry, but the above quotes just make me angry...especially the "your case is hopeless" phrase...

EGW was human, but OBVIOUSLY never was in a situation where she felt COMPLETELY friendless, COMPLETELY discouraged, COMPLETELY alone with her problems. She had NO training in counseling or psychology. Trying to tell someone who is suicidal that they will be eternally damned if they go through with the action, is NOT helpful. It's using scare tactics to make someone stay in (to that person) an untenable situation, without giving any help or alternatives whatsoever. I think it's a disgusting maneuver.

Don't be so quick to judge and condemn Ellen White, a woman you've never had the opportunity to speak with. Let's take that last quote in context.

"You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins. But if you come just as you are, helpless and sin-polluted, and cast yourself at the foot of the cross, poor, miserable, blind, and naked, there is a Saviour to lift you up. I know that you have not for many, many years been in harmony with God. You have for a long stretch of years been following another leader, which is the prince of darkness; but if you will cast off the works of darkness, if you will now look unto Jesus, you will live."

She is not speaking to a generally good person who in a sudden moment of insanity decides to take their life. She is speaking to one who has for many many years not been in harmony with God and has instead been following Satan. To kill yourself in such a state would indeed make your case hopeless for your would leave no opportunity to repent of your past life.

[Gordon1]

Anyone who has read through Ellen White's early, middle and later works will know that both she and her husband were deeply despondent at many times in their lives. She was so disfigured in a childhood accident, her father could not recognize her. She faced a life of rejection by those she sought to help. She often felt completely alone, completely discouraged and without earthly friends. I am sure this is true of many prophets, many Protestants, and Christ Himself.

Much of this may be God's design; it leads us to see that our only hope is looking to Christ who trod this path before us.

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Don't be so quick to judge and condemn Ellen White, a woman you've never had the opportunity to speak with. Let's take that last quote in context.

"You say you are tempted to cut the brittle thread of life; but if you do, then your case is hopeless, for you add the sin of murder to all your other sins. But if you come just as you are, helpless and sin-polluted, and cast yourself at the foot of the cross, poor, miserable, blind, and naked, there is a Saviour to lift you up. I know that you have not for many, many years been in harmony with God. You have for a long stretch of years been following another leader, which is the prince of darkness; but if you will cast off the works of darkness, if you will now look unto Jesus, you will live."

She is not speaking to a generally good person who in a sudden moment of insanity decides to take their life. She is speaking to one who has for many many years not been in harmony with God and has instead been following Satan. To kill yourself in such a state would indeed make your case hopeless for your would leave no opportunity to repent of your past life.

to those who want to condemn what I wrote:

you are missing the "COMPLETELY" that I wrote... Ellen White (to my knowledge) ALWAYS had the support of her husband. She ALWAYS was in communication with God. She ALWAYS had supporters in the church.

When one has support and KNOWS it, one is not feeling COMPLETE isolation and devastation.

From the responses I've received to my comment, it appears that no one thinks I've ever been "depressed" and have no idea was is involved. WRONG. I was in therapy beginning at age 24 and was in therapy over half of my life. I tried to kill myself several times. I have been through hell and back. And to hell again. You have no idea.

Before you begin to trash someone's comments on C/A, or anywhere for that matter, it might behoove you to consider the fact that you have no idea where that person has been, what experiences have occurred, and just where they are in life at the present. In short, you've not walked in anyone else's moccasins....just your own. And your trail may not be as long or treacherous as someone else's.

[Gail]

Interesting comments and good discussion!

Having been there, done that, as far as depression goes. I was hospitalised for 3 months once for it, yet fortunately I did not want to end my life (well, only once due to an adverse reaction to a medication which was immediately discontinued)

Yet the one answer to my varying days eludes me to this day. Sometimes the depressive state lifted on its own accord with some time, sometimes I needed some quiet time. Sometimes talking with a skilled person helped to focus my thoughts. Sometimes being alone with my thoughts was my worst enemy.

The environment I am in today is so different than it was back then. These days I hardly suffer as I used to, and I praise God for every new day. But I have not forgotten what those days are like. I try to keep a healthy respect for knowing how it can get.

Why does the most beautiful art result from the worst mental suffering?

What I do love about God is that He takes us right from where we are at, no matter how low that becomes. He IS there in the valleys. Those were some of the times when I discerned it the most. But not all may perceive it in the foggiest of their thoughts. In those times the mercy of human hands may have the healing touch, like in the example of Hair's.

[Gail]

Pam, I don't know if this would help at all, but Mrs. White did not always have the support of her husband. After his stroke he was a very difficult person to live with. They even lived separated for a time.

I am not sure how much of depression is relative and varies from person to person. But one thing is common, for sure- the person is very low on resources at the time, whether they be physical, mental or emotional.

[Guest]

When one has support and KNOWS it, one is not feeling COMPLETE isolation and devastation.

Not wanting to condemn what you wrote, but it has been my experience, with the people I've known who suffer from depression. That all the support in the world, family or otherwise, doesn't seem to matter one wit when they are in the throes of it. Or diminish the COMPLETENESS of those feelings you mentioned, in any way.

After all they ARE feelings, and not necessarily connected to reality at all.

I myself have suffered with it some, but as long as I can come and post here at C/A, I am happier than a pig wallering in slop. Generally speaking. )

[Gail]

God's love- either in verity or the realisation of it- don't underestimate it!

[Gordon1]

James White died in 1881.

Ellen White lived for another 34 years and was pummeled by the Church.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay...everyone's experience is different.

see ya

[Guest]

God's love- either in verity or the realisation of it- don't underestimate it!

Yes, lets not forget that! Lest I sound like I'm being flip. Sometimes there is no greater joy, than just spending some quiet time in God's word.

[Gordon1]

Yes, lets not forget that! Lest I sound like I'm being flip. Sometimes there is no greater joy, than just spending some quiet time in God's word.

I reckon that brings Him a good measure of joy too.

[Guest]

I never thought of it that way Gordon. Thank you. :)

[joeb]

Quote:

I think this is the paradigm from which Ellen White is looking at this, and I think it's the right one, for we can never ask for forgiveness after the fact in a suicide. We can't ask God to forgive us before we sin--any sin--for that shows premeditation on our part, and no repentance and turning away from the sin.

not all suicides are alike

Sampson's suicide was not the same as Pilate's, and Judas's.

God alone is the judge in these cases.

a person in a psychotic episode has a different accountability.

God alone can measure the fine balances of reason and choice, and illness. Elijah wanted to end his life, but later ended up being translated.

King David said to God, "In my affliction i would have died if i had not know you".

debbym,

Of course there are circumstances, such as psychoses where a person cannot reason, cannot think rationally, and those are exceptions, not what Ellen White was speaking to in the instance that's being discussed.

In the cases of Elijah and David neither of them decided to kill themselves, they turned to God instead. That's exactly what Ellen White advised the person in the quote to do.

In Samson's case God used him to kill all the leadership of the Philistines in one blow and deliver Isreal from Philistine oppression. God actually intervened and gave Samson the power to pull down the pillars. So, I have my doubts as to whether or not it can be called suicide as such. I'm not dogmatic about that position at all, but that's the way I lean on it. I see it as death in battle for that is what it basically was.

[8thdaypriest]

The 21 yr old son of a friend of mine committed suicide about 6 years ago now. Her son had terrible depressive episodes and they were trying different meds. I comforted her with this: If a human judge can understand extenuating circumstances, Jesus - who absolutely LOVES that boy and gave His life for him, can understand infinitely more.

My own mother suffered from Alzheimer's, and finally a massive stroke at age 82. It took her 7 days to die. She had a living will which refused all life-prolonging IVs or tube feedings, etc. I completely agree with her. I do NOT want my life prolonged if I am in a useless condition, unable to communicate with anyone. I think we treat our animals better than we treat people. Just because the heart is still beating doesn't mean we should prolong the pain...... If someone refuses life prolonging measures, that doesn't mean they are committing suicide. I wish we could have ended it sooner.