Katrina- World press response

September 3, 2005

I usually get my online news from the BBC. I found it interesting that they highlighted excerpts from various world newspapers on Bush's (slow) response to the disaster

Comments from world newspapers

September 3, 2005

Yes, the BBC is no friend of the Bush Administration. That hasn't been a secret for a long time.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

About 10,000 US National Guard troops were deployed [in New Orleans] and were granted the authority to fire at and kill whom they wanted, upon the pretext of restoring order. This decision is an indication of the US administration's militarist mentality, which regards killing as the only way to control even its own citizens.

Now that is real objective isn't it? I believe the General in charge gave the command to only fire as a last resort. At least that is what I heard him say on the news.

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The sea walls would not have burst in New Orleans if the funds meant for strengthening them had not been cut to help the war effort in Iraq and the war on terror... And rescue work would have been more effective if a section of National Guard from the areas affected had not been sent to Baghdad and Kabul... And would George Bush have left his holiday ranch more quickly if the disaster had not first struck the most disadvantaged populations of the black south?

Now that sounds just like the mayor of New Orleans... THE CITY WAS BUILT IN A BOWL. WE CAN'T BUILD CITIES IN BOWLS AND MAKE THEM SAFE!

September 3, 2005

Quote:

THE CITY WAS BUILT IN A BOWL. WE CAN'T BUILD CITIES IN BOWLS AND MAKE THEM SAFE!

Why not? We build strange looking buildings and they remain standing in an earthquake? Why can't we build citys with levys in them that prevent water from flooding the city?

Quote:

Yes, the BBC is no friend of the Bush Administration. That hasn't been a secret for a long time.

Besides Fox news, is there any newsnetwork that IS a friend of Bush's that is a mainstream outlet?

September 3, 2005

Hey Shane, Those quotes you have are from the BBC? If so I can't believe they actually wrote that. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the Bush haters hate God. There are those of course who are blinded by what they hear. (I know this will cause a stir) Our Neice who doesn't like Bush blames him for the slow response to Katrina. She doesn't have all the facts but because of her dislike for Bush finds him guilty without even wanting to hear the truth.

The truth? On August the 27th two days before the hurricane hit President George Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana and urged residents to heed the advice of the authorities, leave. That authotrized FEMA to get on the move. There's only so much one person can do, even when your the prez.

Even God is held back from doing what He'd like because of circumstances. He wants to come and get us but can't just yet. We aren't ready and He wants all to be saved, but knows that all won't come to Him. Put yourself in that situation.

Norman

September 4, 2005

Quote:

I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the Bush haters hate God. There are those of course who are blinded by what they hear. (I know this will cause a stir)

Yeah, it will cause a stir. One in which you will be in the hot seat for. But "Bush haters hate God"? Not a chance. You see, there are a large section of thinking Christians who don't like Bush. They tend to be positive people who think that there should be a separation of church and state. Why some of them tend to dislike the idea of reducing the status of women in general to becoming baby making machines when abortion is outlawed. And some of them tend to be enviormentally progressive. These are policys that Bush tends to pooh-hoo. The people who feel these are very necessary policys really don't like Bush, but they definately love God.

Quote:

The truth? On August the 27th two days before the hurricane hit President George Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana and urged residents to heed the advice of the authorities, leave. That authotrized FEMA to get on the move. There's only so much one person can do, even when your the prez.

Now you got my curiousity up....You say that FEMA was able to move 2 days before the hurricane struck, but it took the federal goverment 5 days AFTER the hurricane came before they could get to the people in NO. Seems to me that's 7 days where many could not get to water nor food...It also seems to me that that is a bit negligent on the goverments responsibility to it's citizens...

Just my thoughts on this....

September 4, 2005

There is a good reason we can build strange looking buildings in earthquake areas and cannot build a city in a bowl. The two have nothing to do with each other.

When we build a city in a bowl it is dependant on electric pumps to pump out the water. If a storm knocks out the power the pumps stop working. Each pump needs its own backup generator. However even then the generators will need a supply of fuel. If the storm destoys bridges and roads the generators may run out of fuel. Even than the generators can only pump out about an inch of rain every hour. Tropical storms and huricanes are known to drop 6 - 8 inches of rain in an hour. So now we start to see a problem with building in a bowl. New Orleans has had problems ever since it was built.

September 4, 2005

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You say that FEMA was able to move 2 days before the hurricane struck, but it took the federal goverment 5 days AFTER the hurricane came before they could get to the people in NO.

By declaring the area a disaster area Bush gave the local authorities access to FEMA as a resource. FEMA was not to go in and micromanage the crisis. The local and state authorities really dropped the ball and it took FEMA a few days after the hurricane to pick it up and run with it. The only words I can think of to describe the local authorities isn't Christian-like to say. To say they are incompentant is too kind.

If this had been a terrorist attack, the Department of Homeland Security would have taken control. Perhaps we may want to have them do so in natural disasters too if the local and state governments have no idea how to handle such situations.

However this is not a Republican-Democrat issue. The politics of this are local-state-federal. Each level needs to have their own responsibility and a plan on how to fulfill it.

September 4, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

a lot of the Bush haters hate God

Brother Norm,

We have been asked not to use the terms "Bush hate" becuase it upsets some of our members. Try to reword such statements in ways that will comunicate the same thought without using words that have been known to be inflamatory. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

September 4, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Norman said:

I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the Bush haters hate God. There are those of course who are blinded by what they hear. (I know this will cause a stir) Norman

Norm,

That type of statement is why many people who originally liked Bush become deeply concerned about the direction our country is taking. It is becoming an all-to-common attitude perpetuated by the Religious Right. I say this, and I voted for Bush. I do question many of his policies. I have never been an "Yes (wo)man" in business" and refuse to be in politics. What I do not like is the direction our country is going by insisting on combining church and state.

One can not agree with another's political opinion and not HATE the person. Certainly not liking the Bush method of governing does not make a person Hate God.

Naomi

September 4, 2005

Hi Neil, what I wrote I knew would get some people upset. I read what you said but you took what I said and applied it to people who don't like Bush or his policies. That is different than those who hate him and there are many.

I wanted to put myself in this hot seat because for a while I've wanted to say something about this but didn't know quite how to get it out. I may not even now, it depends on the responses I get from my post.

AS for the FEMA statement this is what it says: "The president's emergency declaration authorizes the FEMA to coordinate all disaster relief efforts and to provide appropriate assistance in a number of Louisiana parishes, or counties."

When I said the declaration authorized FEMA to "move," I should have been clearer. The word "move" was not a good choice of words but I used it because I wanted to summurize. Why FEMA didn't get active sooner; I don't know all the answers to that but know it's a shame. My point was that you can't look at this and blame Bush.

Norman

September 4, 2005

Hi Shane,

Thanks for the advice. I think you will see why I wrote that in a little while. I'm just waiting for more responses. I just pray that I can communicate what I have to say clearly.

I will leave you with a riddle.

Bush hate is Satan's bate.

If you can figure it out you'll know where I coming from.

Norman

September 4, 2005

Hi Naomi,

(Like Neil you have taken what I said and applied it to those who don't like or disagree with Bush. I did not say that if one disagrees with Bush that they hate God)

I'd like to say that I'm a Canadian and have been living here since Nov 99. When I came here I was in favor of Al Gore but as time went on I saw that having him as President would not have been good. Many Democrats realized this just after 9-11. Many were saying thank God Gore wasn't in.

As time went on I began to look into Bush and found him to be a down to earth person who is committed to God, family, country and sobriety. Remember I was liberal born in Quebec, Canada who only heard the Liberal media's spin. (I can spot that stuff now.) So for me to like a republican is a strange thing. Before I go any further, I am not a yes man either.

I know one thing about Bush and that is he cannot lie, not that he won't but he chooses not to. Why do I say that? Sobriety depends on honesty and he was once an active drinking alcoholic. In politics honesty is rare and is one of the reasons he is despised. It makes others look bad. You have to acknowledge that Bush is just about persecuted for even being alive.

If the country is heading for church and state it will not happen because of Bush. The religious right may want that but Bush will not do that. That is up to another. I may get into that in another post. Which is my reason for the comment I made.

Norman

September 4, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Norman said:

Hi Shane,

I will leave you with a riddle.

Bush hate is Satan's bate.

If you can figure it out you'll know where I coming from.

Norman

Hi Norm,

Your riddle is quite clear. Do you really want to go there?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Norman said:

Hi Naomi,

(Like Neil you have taken what I said and applied it to those who don't like or disagree with Bush. I did not say that if one disagrees with Bush that they hate God)

Norm, you said,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I have come to the conclusion that a lot of the Bush haters hate God. There are those of course who are blinded by what they hear. (I know this will cause a stir)

Yes, you did qualify it by saying "a lot" It reads as though it is heavily slanted, which would indicate (at least to me) intent.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I know one thing about Bush and that is he cannot lie, not that he won't but he chooses not to. Why do I say that? Sobriety depends on honesty and he was once an active drinking alcoholic.

Is this a "one-size-fits-all" statement? I also think he is honest, but he has a large staff and many "advisors" to whom he is responsible.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If the country is heading for church and state it will not happen because of Bush.

A house is built one brick, or board, at a time. A countries laws often do not change in one administration. The ground work can sometimes be done by more than one leader.

Because a person is unhappy about any political or other leaders position or policy does not mean they HATE. Hate is a very, very strong word. Hate is usually directed on a more personal level.

Naomi

September 4, 2005

In the course of this thread, there were some things that were noticed to not be quite rightly said.

For example-

Quote:

There is a good reason we can build strange looking buildings in earthquake areas and cannot build a city in a bowl. The two have nothing to do with each other.

This is simply an engineering problem. In fact, the Civil Engineers have said that the levys were made during the 60s and they were not maintained, nor improved upon. In fact, they have said that they can build levys that could have withstood Catagory 5 hurricanes. So, this is something can can be done, even if you live in a bowl.

Quote:

By declaring the area a disaster area Bush gave the local authorities access to FEMA as a resource. FEMA was not to go in and micromanage the crisis. The local and state authorities really dropped the ball and it took FEMA a few days after the hurricane to pick it up and run with it.

So let me get this straight....

Citys and counties are to determine which storms are severe enough to recommend evacuation of the city/county. Seems to me that there should have been some communication between the Feds and the State and the cities/counties. But besides that, you expect the cities that were devesated to call out for help, especially when the communications towers and phone lines are knocked out. Well, all I got to say to that is that when you are in a similar situation, I hope you got big lungs and large vocal cords and can make yourself heard all the way to Washington DC over that timultuous din in that city from where you are at.

Naomi was known to have said-

Quote:

Certainly not liking the Bush method of governing does not make a person Hate God.

To which I can say,....AMEN!

Norm was known to have said-

Quote:

(Like Neil you have taken what I said and applied it to those who don't like or disagree with Bush. I did not say that if one disagrees with Bush that they hate God)

Whether you know it or not, those people who use the term Bush hate use it to include policies of Bush. IOWs, if I disagree with Bush over his policies, people like Shane are known to use the term when I point it out. It is an exagerated term that is used to include the disagreement of Bush himself, which is not true. It is offensive and most here have requested that its discontinued usage.

MOst here do not HATE Bush. They just disagree with him on policy.

September 4, 2005

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In fact, they have said that they can build levys that could have withstood Catagory 5 hurricanes.

That has yet to be seen. It has never been done. It would be easier and more sure to bury the city and raise it ten feet.

How many here know much about the Big Dig in Bouston? It has been an engineering disaster that has blown the budget unbelievably. I suspect that a dyke/levie system to withstand a cat 5 hurricane will be the same in New Orleans.

Why would we want to try and protect a city from mother nature when we could just build it up? Nine years ago New Orleans got some heavy rains and six people died due to local flooding. And some think they can build a system that will stand up to cat 5 hurricane? A slow-moving tropical storm can drop eight inches of water in an hour. If it is slow moving it could rain for hours. New Orleans is just a disaster waiting to happen (again).

Seattle had simular problems with flooding. After the city burned they buried it and rebuilt it 8 to 32 feet higher to solve the flooding and sewer problem.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Citys and counties are to determine which storms are severe enough to recommend evacuation of the city/county.

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> Yes, that is right. Although the state can also require evacuation - at least in Texas. It is normally the local government. And here they shut off all the utilities (elec., water, gas) to discourage anyone from trying to ride out any storms. There is a lot of cordination going on but from what I understand, it is iniciated by the local level. The Governor doesn't call the Mayor. The Mayor calls the Governor.

September 4, 2005

Note too that FEMA hasn't had response problems in the past with Florida. It seems a big difference is Florida knows how to work with FEMA. They have hurricane plans in place and know exactly what each government agency is to be doing. It really looks to me that neither New Orleans of LA had a plan together.

September 4, 2005

Hi Naomi,

Here's what I meant about Bush haters. Originally I was going to type Bush haters are God haters and then I thought that was too extreme and so I added "a lot" of bush haters are God haters. To re-word it so you can know what I am saying: Of the people who hate Bush, a lot of them hate God. Now that should be clear.

As for Bush being honest because of having people around that he is accountable to. I'm glad you said that, I wish more people understood that. However, Bill Clinton was accountable too, but he did do so well when it came to being honest. In order to be at peace, have joy and love in the life of an alcoholic, honestly in crucial, you can have no sobriety without it. I know this and so do those who have gone through some kind of good 12 step program.

As for my riddle I know you don't understand it. It may appear to be obvious, but it's not. By the things you wrote I know you haven't figured it out yet. But not to worry I don't think anyone would get it.

Well as for the the union of church and state, you are right it is coming around brick by brick.

You said, "Because a person is unhappy about any political or other leaders position or policy does not mean they HATE. Hate is a very, very strong word. Hate is usually directed on a more personal level."

I agree with that and that is not what I said. To me it is very clear that alot of people hate this president for no other reason than who he is, policies aside.

I hope I cleared that hurdle.

Norman

September 4, 2005

Hi Neil,

You said,

"Whether you know it or not, those people who use the term Bush hate use it to include policies of Bush. IOWs, if I disagree with Bush over his policies, people like Shane are known to use the term when I point it out. It is an exagerated term that is used to include the disagreement of Bush himself, which is not true. It is offensive and most here have requested that its discontinued usage.

MOst here do not HATE Bush. They just disagree with him on policy."

I follow politics now (I didn't in Canada) and have good understanding of it, more than some Americans do, I'd even have to sasy more than alot of Americans. I think politics here is so interesting. You are right there are some who hate the Prez because of his policies. There are also a lot of them who hate him no matter what he does. They flat out hate him, am I the only one who can see this?

Also, in context with what I was saying, I was responding to the quotes shane posted about the BBC. To lie about the prez like that to me is to hate him and God. If we could investigate that, I think we'd find that it is the case.

Please know I certainly did not mean to refer to anyone in this club to be Bush haters, I hope you didn't get that impression.

Norman

September 4, 2005

Uhuh, and there are *lots* who flat out hate Clinton too: every time I have a conversation about the economy with a Republican, they're still blaming it all on Clinton!

I don't hate Bush. I think he is a very dangerous man because of what he says and does, but I believe he says and does it sincerely, based in beliefs that he authentically holds.

I do think that going into that area at this time and (a) reminisicng about his younger dyas partying there, ( telling Mr Brown that he's 'doing a heck of a job' when he's so clearly been deeply and probably fatally incompetent and © thinking about sitting on the porch of multimillionaire Trent Lott's house when it's rebuilt is just inappropriate. Not because I hate Bush - anyone who did those things at this time would be inappropriate.

Which was the president that had the 'the buck stops here' sign in his office? Even if what has happened is not directly the president's fault, the buck stops with him. He needs to find out what went wrong, take it seriously and make it right. I'm not out for his job or his scalp, I'm asking him to take the responsibility that comes with his high position.

September 4, 2005

Michael Chertoff, Secretary of Homeland Securiety, was on NBC's Meet The Press this morning and said what I have been saying all along. Evacuation is the responsibility of the local and state governments. FEMA's responsibility is to provide support.

It seems many at the federal level didn't see the urgency until the levies broke. (Which was wrong of them - no excuses on my part there) However that explains part of the dely.

Polls done in New Orleans in the past had shown that 25% would not leave during a mandatory hurricane evacuation. So the authorities there knew what they were up against. It seems nothing was ever done to decrease that number. Knowing the danger, the only acceptable solution was evacuation. That was the most important part and was the responsability of the local and state governement. While it seems FEMA didn't respond well, one has to wonder how much of that was due to the incompetance of the local and state governments.

September 4, 2005

(a) The Bush administration's incompetent balancing of the war on terror with other domestic concerns led to a series of restructuring in FEMA - all of which has been undone to put it back the way it was so that FEMA could do its job. This restructuring badly affected the planning processes for the first few days of the problem

Bush is directlt and personally responsible for this - he is the person who oversees the prioritization of the issues

( The waste of money in Iraq caused, amongst other things, the Army Corp of Engineers to shelve plans to improve the levees several years ago - again under Bush's 'cut taxes, spend money, raise the debt, loot the country' polices.

( The most cost efficient way to move people is boat and bus. This is why the Bush administration is using helicopters and commercial jets - and you can bet your bottom dollar the commercial airlines are getting paid by our tax dollars.

Bush is here. The looting started a long time before New Orleans got flooded. And it is being done by white men in suits.

/Bevin

September 4, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The Bush administration's incompetent balancing of the war on terror with other domestic concerns led to a series of restructuring in FEMA

FEMA has been handling natural disasters quite well over the past few years until this storm - which was bigger, more powerful and involved incompatent local and state governments. I do not excuse FEMA's mistakes but do not think anyone can honestly lay all the blame on them.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The waste of money in Iraq caused, amongst other things, the Army Corp of Engineers to shelve plans to improve the levees several years ago

Someone against the war in Iraq may call using resources there a waste. However we need to approach it from Bush's prespective that the war is justified. If the war is justified than shifting military priorities from domestic missions to combat missions during time of war makes sense.

September 4, 2005

Bravus, please don't think I'm upset or being mean with you. I am being direct without attitude. Your feeling are more important to me than all this.

From what I remember, Clinton was extremely popular (Even in Canada) and popular opinion started to change after his personal problems. A lot of people were disgusted with him. That was brought on by his stupidity, policies aside. I stand on my comment that Bush is hated for who he is. You can't even compare that kind of hate with Clinton's. As time goes on people have been seeing what kind of president Clinton really was and a lot of the issues were dealing with today are his adminstrations babies.

As for Bush being responsible, not a chance. You're listening to spin and buying into it. He is not a dictator who just yells and people jump. That's not the type of goverment that is here in the US.

You said,

"I do think that going into that area at this time and (a) reminisicng about his younger dyas partying there, ( telling Mr Brown that he's 'doing a heck of a job' when he's so clearly been deeply and probably fatally incompetent and © thinking about sitting on the porch of multimillionaire Trent Lott's house when it's rebuilt is just inappropriate. Not because I hate Bush - anyone who did those things at this time would be inappropriate."

Man, those are some nit picken comments. What do you expect someone to say after seeing that devastation? What do you want someone to say to Mr. Brown. "Hey Brown you're a complete failure" It was not time for the prez to start telling Mr. Brown about this untill getting all the facts, especially on National TV. Bush is a Christian and a man of principles and would not do that.

Just think for a moment, what would you have done or said. Trust me, smooth words would not come to your mind. That kind of devastation leaves you speechless and confused. I would defend anyone under those circumstances. Also, I don't condone the looting but I undersatnd it, I would have done the same thing if I was there and not guilded by the Spirit. (I would not have been there in the 1st place I'm too much of a chicken when it comes to hurricanes)

Norman

September 4, 2005

Fair comments, Norman, and I appreciate the spirit in which you made them. I think if I'd been there, and been the president, I would have been talking about how to rebuild the lives of the poor and save those still in mortal peril, rather than about rebuilding the homes of my multimillionnaire buddies. Sure, it's paralysing to see that, but I believe how we respond under stress reveals our character. Bush's comments revealed his lack of empathy.

And I didn't mean he was *directly* responsible, but he is *finally* responsible. Why else *have* a president, if not to be the leader for the whole country?

September 4, 2005

Bravus, I can see your point because at some points he did seem distant or uncaring. (There is a time and a season for everything) But there were other times when he was very compassionate. like when he was walking through Missisppi and 2 women came up to him and started crying and he put his arms around them and walked away from the cameras and spoke to them. I now that was not for the camera it was genuine.

Blessing to you my brother

Norman

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