Perfect: What is it?

[joeb]

This subject is very controversial despite all the information in the Bible about it. Some people basically get sick when it's brought up because it makes them feel so insecure about who they are. Others get angry just at the word because they've been beaten over the head with it. Others still, like me, don't fear the subject and desire to become that way.

I think part of the problem with this subject is that there are different ideas as to what perfection is, and how a person is to reach that state.

What I'd like is to hear from everyone is what they think being perfect looks like. That's it. Not how anyone is to become perfect, nor whether or not being perfect is possible or not. Just what we think being perfect would look like today.

Here's what I think it looks like. I think it looks like the love of Jesus expressed in us. It will be expressed in us as the same level of loving kindness, patience, gentleness, forbearance, goodness, peace, being calm in the middle of the proverbial storm, etc... that Jesus had. A good Biblical presentation of this perfection is found in the following text.

Quote:

Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I look at these things and I think how much I desire to have all these attributes. Perfection looks to me to be very desireable. Something that would draw people to me, make people want to be around me, and allow me to deal with any kind of problem that comes along. Think about how Jesus dealt with His crucifixion. He was perfectly calm all the way through the entire debacle, and He promised us that peace. He said, My peace I give unto you.

To me that is perfection. It doesn't look scary to me. It looks like something I really desire.

So, how about you? What do you see perfection as being?

[Gibs]

Good Idea Joeb,

Here is mine,

Jesus came and took on Himself exatly our fallen natures that He might become the example of the perfection here in this fallen world of evil at every corner.

We too can walk exactly as He did as it is made clear He took no power but what is ours at true repentance and then being a new man born again, of His Spirit.

His Spirit in you gives you ALL His power and ALL His advantages.

We are to be perfect as He was and He did this as a man with our sinful fallen nature, so He is the perfect expected of us too.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[JoeMo]

My view of "perfection" (when looking at verses like Matt.5:48) is more like "complete" or "without fault" . I think of Jude 24 ( Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless (perfect) before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,)...

We are only perfect in Christ. When we have Christ dwelling in us, the Father sees His perfect and faultless Son. Are we indeed as perfect as Jesus? Maybe not in our own eyes or in the eyes of the world; but by beholding Christ we will be changed from glory to glory; and victory unto victory. He who began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it.

[joeb]

Thanks, JoeMo. I appreciate your input.

[Gail]

Great question! I have often wondered about what perfection is, certainly because like so many other Biblical concepts I suspect that our human view of it is way too small.

[joeb]

Great question! I have often wondered about what perfection is, certainly because like so many other Biblical concepts I suspect that our human view of it is way too small.

Well, then tell us what your best guess as to what it perfection would look like today.

I'd really like to get a lot of opinions on this.

[Gail]

I suppose that a quick and easy answer would be that when one has been in the presence of a certain person one can say that he/she has tasted of a bit of heaven.

I say that because that is what I imagine it would have been to sit at Jesus' feet.

To me, that does not minimise the idea of perfection at all.

[joeb]

I suppose that a quick and easy answer would be that when one has been in the presence of a certain person one can say that he/she has tasted of a bit of heaven.

I say that because that is what I imagine it would have been to sit at Jesus' feet.

To me, that does not minimise the idea of perfection at all.

You said this much more concisely than I did, but it appears to be the same thought as mine. Perfection is nothing that should ever make us, or others around us uncomfortable, or find us so irritating that we drive them nuts.

[Gibs]

It is wise not to set the goal too low, we need to keep reaching higher and higher, with His indwelling we are made capable of all He has set the standard by his own example.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[joeb]

It is wise not to set the goal too low, we need to keep reaching higher and higher, with His indwelling we are made capable of all He has set the standard by his own example.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

So, you think that being like so like Jesus that those who come to be around us feel that they've spent time with Jesus is setting the bar too low? You gotta be kidding me.

Tell me who, or what, is more perfect, and God-like, than Jesus.

[olger]

Here is a picture of perfection:

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

It is wise not to set the goal too low, we need to keep reaching higher and higher, with His indwelling we are made capable of all He has set the standard by his own example.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

So, you think that being like so like Jesus that those who come to be around us feel that they've spent time with Jesus is setting the bar too low? You gotta be kidding me.

Tell me who, or what, is more perfect, and God-like, than Jesus.

That was my original first post here Joe that we are to be like him and for sure to be like Him, sinless is the higher reaching goal and we should gain as we overcome point by point.

It is the big problem today that most find His perfection as one of us can not be attained.

The faith is lacking that He has empowerd us to do so.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

[Gerr]

So, how about you? What do you see perfection as being?

How do I understand perfection? I see it in two levels. One level of perfection is what Adam & Eve and the angels had at their creation. They were sinless. They had no inclination to transgress God's commandments. Yet they had room for growth. Our Lord used the plant as an example and EGW picked it up. In every stage of its development, the plant is perfect, yet it has room for growth. Had Adam tried to play an instrument for the first time, would he have made a mistake by striking a wrong note? I call this relative perfection. Relative to what?

God's perfection. Is there any aspect of God that needs growth? Improvement? He is as righteous, holy, loving as He will ever or can be. That is ultimate perfection. I see no creature ever achieving this kind of perfection. This is the kind of perfection the law demands; that is why God has to provide it.

Perhaps I should add a third - perfect in the sense of being blameless or wholehearted which I think is the biblical perfection that is expected of believers and which is achievable by God's grace. For example:

KJV 1900 | ý2 Ch 25:2 And he [Amaziah] did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart [whole heart - ESV, NASB]

KJV 1900 | ý1 Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

These texts tell me that one can be perfectly devoted to God and perfectly obedient in attitude but the performance is not perfect. Would you fire a wholeheartedly devoted employee because she has made a mistake?

[JoeMo]

Amen, Olger - love the "picture of perfection"

Jesus is not only the personification of perfection, he is the personification of Truth (the Word made flesh), the personification of the Way to the Kingdom; and the example of the Life we are to lead when He has completed His good work in us.

We must remember that when we fall short of living up to our Example, Jesus is primarily our perfect Substitute.

[joeb]

That was my original first post here Joe that we are to be like him and for sure to be like Him, sinless is the higher reaching goal and we should gain as we overcome point by point.

It is the big problem today that most find His perfection as one of us can not be attained.

The faith is lacking that He has empowerd us to do so.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Sorry, Gibs. I guess I misunderstood your post. I took it as you disagreeing with Gail's post, saying it was too low of a standard.

[joeb]

Amen, Olger - love the "picture of perfection"

Jesus is not only the personification of perfection, he is the personification of Truth (the Word made flesh), the personification of the Way to the Kingdom; and the example of the Life we are to lead when He has completed His good work in us.

We must remember that when we fall short of living up to our Example, Jesus is primarily our perfect Substitute.

I would say that truth, as in the truth that comes from God, and perfection are synonymous. God's word is just as perfect as He is, is another way of saying it, for the life of perfect obedience that Jesus lived was lived by dependence upon scripture, and He is called God's Word.

[joeb]

OK. To sum this up so far we have several of us who think a life of perfection today would be to live the same life Jesus lived, i.e. to display God's love the same way Jesus did. The other picture of perfection sees perfection as whole-hearted devotion to God, but not to live the same life of obedience (display the same love that Jesus did) that Jesus lived.

Does everyone think this is a fair assessment of their positions so far?

[JoeMo]

I would agree with your general assessment. As illogical as it may sound, I can't help but think spiritual perfection is a relative thing (e.g., "perfection in a child does not look like "perfection" in an adult; and "perfection" in a new believer looks different than "perfection" in a seasoned, discipled believer.

[joeb]

I would agree with your general assessment. As illogical as it may sound, I can't help but think spiritual perfection is a relative thing (e.g., "perfection in a child does not look like "perfection" in an adult; and "perfection" in a new believer looks different than "perfection" in a seasoned, discipled believer.

Can you put into words what you see as the difference between the "perfection" of the new believer and the Christian who has been one for decades? I know it's probably hard, but I'd appreciate it if you could give it a try.

[Gibs]

I have to agree with EGW on this and she says we are to be perfect as He, Christ is perfect.

Since He became lowered to our state and degragdation He is our example to attain.

You can read her statement here if you care to, - - {SD 154.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[LifeHiscost]

Here is a picture of perfection:

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."Matthew 5:48 NKJV

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me."John 14:6-10 NLT

"but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:"1 John 2:5 NASB

"But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NLT

God cares!

[joeb]

I have to agree with EGW on this and she says we are to be perfect as He, Christ is perfect.

Since He became lowered to our state and degragdation He is our example to attain.

You can read her statement here if you care to, - - {SD 154.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Stop tring to pick an argument and just comment, please.

Do you agree with my assessment of the differing views expressed on this thread on perfection? Is it a fair assesment?

[Gail]

The question is- what does God mean by perfect?

Does our understanding reflect God's intent?

Think big

If you are keeping all the commandments but don't have love, 1 Cor 13. If you don't have the fruit of the Spirit, yet keep the commandments, is that perfection?

[olger]

Quote:

"If you are keeping all the commandments but don't have love, 1 Cor 13. If you don't have the fruit of the Spirit, yet keep the commandments, is that perfection?"

That would be a big nyet, Nada, Nein, Sister Gail!!!

and no,

`G

[joeb]

The question is- what does God mean by perfect?

Does our understanding reflect God's intent?

Think big

If you are keeping all the commandments but don't have love, 1 Cor 13. If you don't have the fruit of the Spirit, yet keep the commandments, is that perfection?

Ummm...., Gail, errr, aaahhh, Jesus said love is the fulfillment of the law, so just how could anyone keep the commandments if they do not have love? Is it so endemic within Christianity, and Adventism, that love is separated from the law, that we think we can keep it without love?

I sorta see it as a bow towards the wide spread of legalism that we think, subconsciously, that anyone can keep the law, sans love.