The Two Witnesses

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I'm curious how you think that a person whose mind is at enmity with the law by it's own nature, and is based in selfishness, can, of it's own volition, obey a law based in a love that is the antithesis of selfishness.

In letting scripture do the talking:

Quote:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Rom. 12:1-2)

Quote:

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph 4:23-24)

Quote:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!(2Cor.5:17)

You are correct sir - of it's own volition, a person's mind that is not changed by God cannot obey the law; because spiritual things are foolishness to an unrenewed mind. Of our own volition, good works and obedience is impossible; but with God, all things are possible.

CLARIFICATION: I am NOT preaching God-like perfection here, simply excellence and continual spiritual growth.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I would be extremely careful in dividing the two concepts. Most of the world has divided faith and works for reasons that clearly are not biblical. When we study scripture, we understand that what the world calls works is really out of obedience - obedience and works are not synonymous.

Some churches, especially Charismatics have put aside the Decalogue, and have replaced it solely with the concept of ‘Love’. In doing so, they have single handedly destroying the concept of Justice.

Textus,

I never said the law was done away with (at least I don't think I did). What I tried to say was that adherence to the law was no longer the prerequisite for salvation; belief in who Jesus says He is and that He did what He says He did is the prerequisite. The Law is still exteremely relevant in that it defines sin; but also it shows us the character of God. Adherence to the Law and the ability to perform good works (including miracles) is the RESULT of our salvation; and our witness to the world that we have indeed been changed. It is not the PREREQUISITE for salvation. The basis for salvation is faith in Jesus (which includes the works that God empowers us to do through grace); not perfect adherence to the Law.

Also, being a frequent participant in charismatic services, I must say that you are incorrect in saying that these churches have put aside the Decalogue. You obviously are not very familiar with the current state of charismatic Christians. The average ones I know are much more compliant with the Law and willing to do good works than the average SDA. Why? because they WANT to be; not cuz they HAVE to be. For example, Charismatic (or Kingdom) Adventists diligently observe the Sabbath because we WANT to; not because we HAVE to.

Please refrain from mischaracterizing others simply because they do not believe axactly as you do.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

I would be extremely careful in dividing the two concepts. Most of the world has divided faith and works for reasons that clearly are not biblical. When we study scripture, we understand that what the world calls works is really out of obedience - obedience and works are not synonymous.

Some churches, especially Charismatics have put aside the Decalogue, and have replaced it solely with the concept of ‘Love’. In doing so, they have single handedly destroying the concept of Justice.

Textus,

I never said the law was done away with (at least I don't think I did). What I tried to say was that adherence to the law was no longer the prerequisite for salvation; belief in who Jesus says He is and that He did what He says He did is the prerequisite. The Law is still exteremely relevant in that it defines sin; but also it shows us the character of God. Adherence to the Law and the ability to perform good works (including miracles) is the RESULT of our salvation; and our witness to the world that we have indeed been changed. It is not the PREREQUISITE for salvation. The basis for salvation is faith in Jesus (which includes the works that God empowers us to do through grace); not perfect adherence to the Law.

Also, being a frequent participant in charismatic services, I must say that you are incorrect in saying that these churches have put aside the Decalogue. You obviously are not very familiar with the current state of charismatic Christians. The average ones I know are much more compliant with the Law and willing to do good works than the average SDA. Why? because they WANT to be; not cuz they HAVE to be. For example, Charismatic (or Kingdom) Adventists diligently observe the Sabbath because we WANT to; not because we HAVE to.

Please refrain from mischaracterizing others simply because they do not believe axactly as you do.

JoeMo,

You are indeed correct, that that the law will not save us. However, it is because we are saved is why we keep the law. I am sorry if I offended you. But I have an issue with many of the Charismatic churches which exist. Although these churches will defend the Decalogue, and will state that the law is still binding, they will, in the same breath, state that we are no longer living under the law. You can’t have it both ways, either we are or we are not. Sure they will agree that murder, stealing and adultery are considered violations of the law, yet when you press the 4th and the Sabbath, they will conveniently dismiss the Sabbath and claim that we are no longer living under the law. When we examine the reasons for this, for the most part, Lucifer has done a tremendous job in confusing the mind by distorting scripture, particularly Col 2:14.

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”

You have said yourself, that the Decalogue reveals the Character of God so I ask: How can God be against us and contrary to us? You see my friend, it was not the Law that Christ did away with, it were the ordinances which pointed to Christ. If you remember, the law was written in stone by the very finger of God, and the ordinances, written by Moses were wrapped in lambskin (symbolic of Christ) and place outside the ark – and for good reason. The ordinances were but a shadow of Christ, so when Christ was sacrificed, the ordinances were no longer needed. Christ had replaced the ordinances but the law stands forever. You see my friend, it can be said of the 10, except the 4th, can followed regardless faith whether you are a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindi, etc in different varying capacities. Yet, the 4th is the only Commandment that strictly relates us as followers of Yahveh. When we keep the Sabbath, we let God, and the world for that matter,know that we belong to him alone. We acknowledge Yahveh as our Creator and no amount of creative theology will sway us from believing that Man has the right to change His law. It is this that saves us, our faith and love in God, not the commandment itself.

My wife was raised in a tongue speaking Charismatic Church in the West Coast. It is her contention that not all “good works” including “Miracles” which were a product of her church and the many that she had visited throughout her tenure as a member of these churches was a result of God. She can say this with confidence. When she examines her past experiences and tests them with the biblical truth found in scripture she has come to the understanding that many of her experiences were supernatural tricks. It was very difficult for her to admit, but through the grace of God she has found truth. The scripture “No Marvel, for even Lucifer can transform himself into an angel of light” has become quite real to her.

She has a childhood friend, who is now a pastor for a well known Congregation in the west coast who confronted her about not speaking in tongues -ironically, it was my wife that had introduced her to God and the Charismatic church. My wife had explained that for the first time she felt closer to God and understood God’s plan for salvation. That her studies have allowed her to find the hidden biblical truths that have been withheld by Lucifer and his many agents. She noted that she no longer has to guess who is the antichrist, or what the future will bring in light of biblical prophecy. Yet, at no time during the conversation did any of this pique her pastor friend’s curiosity, moreover, the only thing that her pastor friend was concerned about was whether she still speaks in tongues. From that moment, it truly solidified her new found belief that power gospel, and churches were being led by a different spirit. Later that night, my wife told me that at no time while speaking in tongues or other signs that supposedly shows that you are being ‘close’ to God did she ever feel as loved by God as she does now.

[JoeMo]

Thanks for the detailed expansion, Textus. I'm not offended at all - I generally very much appreciate your posts. All I'm saying is that, just as there are nuances to SDA culture, there are nuances in charismatic culture. If your wife is a former charismatic, I'm sure you know that. I have met crazy off-the-wall charismatics. I have met crazy off-the-wall SDA's.

There are charismatics out there who are so legalistic they make legalistic SDA's look like infidels. There are SDA's out there that are every bit as charismatic (even more so) than most charismatics.

I agree with you about the 4th Commandment. For 5 years, we have been a charismatic, Sabbath-Keeping church (Our pastor was an SDA pastor). But our pastor left a few weeks ago. Half of our church membership (including about half of our board)have never had any connection with Adventism. They are interviewing prospective new pastors now. If the new pastor comes in and moves our service from Saturday morning to Sunday to increase membership and offerings, I'm leaving. I will probably stay if they just add a Sunday service and keep the Saturday one.

[phkrause]

You are correct sir - of it's own volition, a person's mind that is not changed by God cannot obey the law; because spiritual things are foolishness to an unrenewed mind. Of our own volition, good works and obedience is impossible; but with God, all things are possible.

CLARIFICATION: I am NOT preaching God-like perfection here, simply excellence and continual spiritual growth.

Absolutely JoeMo, of our own volition we can never be or get perfect, but with Christ in us we are perfect.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

I don't believe that the temple will be rebuilt.

Isaiah 2

Quote:

The Lord's Future Reign

1. This is another vision that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2. In the last days, the Temple of the Lord in Jerusalem will become the most important place on earth. People from all over the world will go there to worship.

3. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the Temple of the God of Israel.* There he will teach us his ways, so that we may obey him." For in those days the Lord's teaching and his word will go out from Jerusalem.

4. The Lord will settle international disputes. All the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. All wars will stop, and military training will come to an end.