Flawed arguements for and against female ordination.

[olger]

Don't despair, Gordon. There are many faithful believers who accept the Word of God joyfully (Luke 8:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:6). If you post something positive on Club Adventist about the beautiful doctrines that we have, and liberals jump all over you for it - that's ok. They have just said something about themselves that they would not wish to say -- had they thought it through.

Blessings,

G

[CoAspen]

Quote:

One can see where Bible fidelity quickly leads. Name calling, labeling, heretic hunting, denouncing neighbors.

Indeed! Glad to see you are aware of your issue!! Now, see if you can discuss things in a civil manner. The persecution cloak is not fitting you. Even our resident pagan speaks better of others.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I've learned not to expect ex-witches, church lawyers or women preachers

to support Scriptural evidence or the EGW record.

Just what do you find positive in the above quote????

Quote:

If you post something positive on Club Adventist.......liberals jump all over you for it - that's ok.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

it's really sad that another interesting topic has entered the abyss of judgmentalism and self-righteousness...

I'm not interested in parrying words with those of such a mindset...

[CoAspen]

i would not be surprised if that is not the intent...wouldn't be the first time....

[Tom Wetmore]

"Winning" by sabotaging the train of thought to cause a derailment. And favorite sabotage strategies are to throw ad hominem mud balls, turn the discussion into an us against them conservative/liberal battle and then feign persecution...

And if all else fails hijack the train with homophobic silliness and other equally silly slippery slop fallacious arguments!!

[Gordon1]

...about the beautiful doctrines that we have...

Yes indeed Gerry, that's a wonderful word to describe our doctrines...beautiful.

[Gail]

Quote:

I've learned not to expect ex-witches, church lawyers or women preachers

to support Scriptural evidence or the EGW record.

There is no need for name-calling. Say what you need without finger-pointing.

I like how EGW puts it. In this particular phrase she is specifically talking about modern idol worship, but the principle stood out in its wisdom:

"The people of the world are worshipping false gods. They are to be turned from their false worship, not by hearing denunciation of their idols, but by beholding something better. God's goodness is to be made known." COL p.299

IOW, the challenge is to present something better, not to denunciate. There was no need for the comment above.

[fccool]

There seems to be very disturbing logic in this discussion, and it goes something like this:

1) Since Eve was deceived and not Adam, it means that all women are unreliable to be in teaching or leadership positions over men.

I surely can give you at least a dozen examples of men being deceived in the Bible, including the "wisest person in the world" . Using the same type of selective logic, we can make a point that men are unfit for leadership positions based on these examples.

OR... we can take the Biblical narrative for which it is, a position of Middle-eastern culture, which at that time primarily depended on certain hierarchical structure for survival of a tribe or society.

Women these days were pretty much likened to a property, hence the 9th and 10th commandment (there were no numbers by the way in terms of where one began, and one ended) would end with not coveting one's house and one's wife. It was a largely male-dominant society, and a wish "may your child be a male child" was a fairly common one.

Interpreting this mindset as "Women are forever banned from leadership positions" is utterly ridiculous in our day and age, in which women have proven to be very thoughtful and effective leaders.

In fact, I believe that if women would be in charge of the global political systems, this would would be much better off... because much of the historical political conflict and wars merely revolve around male mentality and male-type of competition. In the very least we've learned to sublimate some of it into sports.

[Green Cochoa]

i notice here that when a man is head of his family, he does not have other heads underneath him. he alone is head of the his family,

and Christ alone is head of His Church, he does not have other heads beneath him in the church.

Debby,

I think both Olger and I see that both husband and wife should be in God's church together, and as God has set up the husband to be head of the wife and family, that means that there are indeed heads beneath that of Christ in the church. To reason otherwise would be to say the family order must be broken down at the threshold of the church...which is something I would like to see Biblical support for before I would be willing to consider it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Stan]

The weaker a position... the ruder people are...

[Johann]

The weaker a position... the ruder people are...

[Johann]

Quote:

I've learned not to expect ex-witches, church lawyers or women preachers

to support Scriptural evidence or the EGW record.

There is no need for name-calling. Say what you need without finger-pointing.

I like how EGW puts it. In this particular phrase she is specifically talking about modern idol worship, but the principle stood out in its wisdom:

"The people of the world are worshipping false gods. They are to be turned from their false worship, not by hearing denunciation of their idols, but by beholding something better. God's goodness is to be made known." COL p.299

IOW, the challenge is to present something better, not to denunciate. There was no need for the comment above.

Much prayer is needed. These are difficult times when we seem surrounded by professing saints... downgrading Christian unity and the WORD of God

[debbym]

Quote:

Debby,

I think both Olger and I see that both husband and wife should be in God's church together, and as God has set up the husband to be head of the wife and family, that means that there are indeed heads beneath that of Christ in the church. To reason otherwise would be to say the family order must be broken down at the threshold of the church...which is something I would like to see Biblical support for before I would be willing to consider it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Romans 12

Conduct in Humility

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one of you not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but to think with sober discernment, as God has distributed to each of you a measure of faith. 4 For just as in one body we have many members, and not all the members serve the same function, 5 so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another. 6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness.

There is one body, one head of the body and many members.

This is not some idea from the world.

There are many authorities in the world, but one authority of Christ. Jesus said render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, render to God what is God. We could add to the child, render to your parents what belongs to you parents. And to the husband render to your wife what is your wife’s, and wife render to your husband what is your husbands, but none of these authorities is the Spiritual authority of Christ.

There are boundaries to these authorities which God established. Like the authorities of police, and judges, these are civil not spiritual authorities.

It is in the Catholic tradition who claimed to have spiritual authority on earth, commanding the wafer to be the body of Christ, and authority to change the law of God that we have assumption of Spiritual authority.

Any person anywhere anytime who assumes to command the authority of God is a replication of the character of satan who coveted the power and authority of God, but he was a created being, and not God In coveting the position and authority of God he lost the position God gave him.

In the body of Christ there is one head and one head only. No one commands any spiritual authority but Christ. No one else is God, great enough, pure enough, and holy enough.

In the early church both a slave and master could be members, but the master did not command any spiritual authority over the slave, this was sacred domain God alone could spiritually command the slave. God allowed the slave master relationship, but he remained Lord alone of both slave and master. It is the same with marriage. If you want to treat your wife like someone under your control and she agrees, this does not mean you ever have any spiritual authority over her.

When human beings, governments, husbands, slave masters step into taking spiritual authority over others, then you have corruption, and the form of the beast.

In the Church the spiritual gifts whatever they may be, are given for service that the body of Christ may be perfected in love to God. They are not for spiritual authority over others.

Against my better judgment I have again offered this concept, knowing that those who war against it will continue to war against it. but for those who understand it, I believe it is worthy to mention and note. This is a vital principle in the conflict of Good and evil, especially important in the times we are living.

[Tom Wetmore]

[Green Cochoa]

Debby,

I appreciate the thought you have put into your post. Thank you for sharing your view. That passage in Romans is indeed a good one on the topic of unity through diversity. Paul highlights the fact that we are not all the same, but have a variety of gifts and roles in the church. This can be looked at from more than one direction. In one sense, it seems like Paul is leveling the field a bit in terms of the gifts, and yet in another sense, it appears he is doing the opposite. To help us understand what he may have meant, we are obliged to look at other passages in comparison with this.

One text that comes to my mind is the last verse of 1 Corinthians 12. For some context, I'll quote the several verses before it.

12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

[Tom Wetmore]

Some questions for you, Green.

Do you recognize to what or whom Paul is alluding, if not directly quoting, in the phrase "a more excellent way"?

Can you identify specifically those "natural abilities that don't come naturally to women" and confirm that no women ever have them?

And likewise, specifically identify those "natural gifts that are rarer among men" that women have? (I am not quite sure I understand the distinction/difference you make in using "don't come naturally" vs. "rarer among". Maybe you could take the time to explain that.)

And finally, what does the metaphor of being the head mean to you personally? What do you think God being the head of Christ really means? What does Christ being the head of the Church, his own body, mean? What does the head to a body say about the relationship between them? What would happen if you separate the head from the body?

[Green Cochoa]

Some questions for you, Green.

Do you recognize to what or whom Paul is alluding, if not directly quoting, in the phrase "a more excellent way"?

[olger]

Quote:

Headship is a matter of trust, discipline, organization, respect, and obedience. It is not limited to just one aspect. We are to trust, obey, respect, and follow Christ. A woman should exhibit these traits toward her husband as well. Men want to be respected and trusted. They have a need to receive trust and respect. Of course, they need "love" too, but they feel loved when they are trusted, appreciated, and respected. A woman needs to be "loved." This is why the Bible says "husbands love your wives." It says that wives should "reverence" their husbands.

A husband and wife walking in oneness is evangelism. The beautiful cooperation that you describe above is the Lord's ideal, and a magnetic expression of the gospel to a watching world.

`G

[Tom Wetmore]

Green,

No, Paul's phrase, "A more excellent way" reminded me of what Jesus said to Martha about her sister, Mary, sitting at the feet of Jesus in the posture of a disciple. He said of Mary, that she had chosen a good thing, the better way to serve the master. It was a more excellent way than the traditional role that Martha was so capable of and was doing in preparing food for them. Jesus also once said something about not living by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. But yes, you did get the connection to love as Paul was simply introducing the next topic covered in the next chapter. But it was more than just about love. Read the whole of the more excellent way he explains in the next chapter.

As for the man/women differences that you have identified, how does any of those make men more fit for pastoral ministry than women? That is the relevant issue. Really, you build the case more strongly that the qualities that you describe that women excel in are quite valuable for one in pastoral ministry and weaken the case for men being more qualified. Not very convincing. Want to try again to see if you can relate the differences between men and women in the context of what would make one more effective in pastoral ministry?

On the head/body metaphor questions you seem to have really missed the point entirely. Think about it as the metaphor that Paul is in fact using. My last question should have given you a very strong hint. What the head is to the body or the body to the head can best be understood if you try to separate them from each other. Really, the head body metaphor should be simple and obvious. It is about connection, interdependence, unity, and oneness. The vital connection between the body and the head simply means that one cannot exist without the other. You cut the head off and the body dies. And so does the head. They depend on each other and are a single unit of life. When Jesus described marriage of a man and a woman he said what God has joined together cannot be taken apart. The two are one. The single life is destroyed by trying to separate the two. And that headship quality faithfully describes the Godhead and the relationship of Christ with the Church. It is the only way for life to continue. It is the source of our life. We are the body of Christ. If you cut the head of the Church off the church dies. And Christ needs us to be his hands and feet.

And that leads to a lesser but still important meaning of being the head of something. The reference can mean source, as in headwaters of a river. So God is the source of Christ, Christ as creator is the source of man and because woman was taken out of man, man is the source of woman.

[Green Cochoa]

As for the man/women differences that you have identified, how does any of those make men more fit for pastoral ministry than women? That is the relevant issue. Really, you build the case more strongly that the qualities that you describe that women excel in are quite valuable for one in pastoral ministry and weaken the case for men being more qualified. Not very convincing. Want to try again to see if you can relate the differences between men and women in the context of what would make one more effective in pastoral ministry?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

God asks men to be the head in the man-woman relationship

Let's put this in context. God asks men to be the head in the husband-wife relationship; not necessarily in every potential male-female interaction scenario. Are female managers, directors and CEO's unbiblical? How about women business owners? What about the men than report to these female leaders? Do they have to forfeit their "man" cards?

Let's not attribute to God things He didn't say.

For those of you who are thinking about Paul's admonition against letting women talk in church,IMO, that was more of a cultural thing than a spiritual thing.

[APL]

Men are discouraged in our church today.

[debbym]

i am going to reply to the eg white comment

Quote:

None among God's servants should hunger and thirst for the highest place as director or manager. Such positions are fraught with great temptation. {CH 303.1}

A neglect on the part of woman to follow God's plan in her creation, an effort to reach for important positions which He has not qualified her to fill, leaves vacant the position that she could fill to acceptance. In getting out of her sphere, she loses true womanly dignity and nobility. When God created Eve, He designed that she should possess neither inferiority nor superiority to the man, but that in all things she should be his equal. The holy pair were to have no interest independent of each other; and yet each had an individuality in thinking and acting. But after Eve's sin, as she was first in the transgression, the Lord told her that Adam should rule over her. She was to be in subjection to her husband, and this was a part of the curse.... {3T 484.1}

i am going to reply to the eg white comment

Quote:

None among God's servants should hunger and thirst for the highest place as director or manager. Such positions are fraught with great temptation. {CH 303.1}

A neglect on the part of woman to follow God's plan in her creation, an effort to reach for important positions which He has not qualified her to fill, leaves vacant the position that she could fill to acceptance. In getting out of her sphere, she loses true womanly dignity and nobility. When God created Eve, He designed that she should possess neither inferiority nor superiority to the man, but that in all things she should be his equal. The holy pair were to have no interest independent of each other; and yet each had an individuality in thinking and acting. But after Eve's sin, as she was first in the transgression, the Lord told her that Adam should rule over her. She was to be in subjection to her husband, and this was a part of the curse.... {3T 484.1}

First quote

We should not hunger or thirst for the highest place. this is about power seeking. We should not feel that all our problems will be solved if we just had the fastest car, the highest position. It is just not true.

We will still be beset with trials and struggles and temptations in those positions too. It will not be an escape from temptations.

If l your temptations are around just having more power and more money, then you might imagine those temptations will go away with the more powerful position and more money, but it is not true, just not true.

Second paragraph,

It is going to be frustrating for anyone male or female to aspire for positions they are not qualified to fill. I could indignify myself running for judge in my local elections forever and not ever get there, trying for a position of more power that I am not qualified to fill. And this I should never do. Even when i imagine that by doing so, i will get that position and i will be happy and all my troubles will be gone.

And women can reject their husbands love for them, and be unsatisfied because they want more power, and position to make them feel better. The bottom line is the consequences of sin on our character leave us always wanting more, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, men and women alike need to be content in how their Lord is leading them.

Men are in danger of thinking, if I just had a more beautiful wife all my troubles with my wife will be gone, not so. A woman weary with the trials of her life whether in marriage or in career may think, if I just had a better job, if I just had a richer husband, all my troubles and trials will go away, but this is simply not true.

We cannot escape ourselves and our faults of character by changing our positions.

When a women serves as minister, or preacher, or bible worker, or mother, or wife, or laborer in any position anywhere, she does not escape the trials of life, the work of dealing with her humanity and bringing herself to God for grace to live and work for the Lord every day.

EG white made clear statements about women who left their children in good care to labor in the word of God, these women were not trying to relieve themselves of their daily trials by seeking a higher position.

Ok, I hope you whoever reads this can grasp the principle that eg white is clearly writing about.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ellen White was a very reasonable woman, notwithstanding how some people present her.