Gen 26:5?

[Ron Amnsn]

I agree with 8THday on this - the Bible plainly says in Acts 16:3 that he circumcised him "because of the Jews"

[Hair]

Originally Posted By: Hair

Hair, it looks like you're not even being honest here. What version are you looking at? It says Titus "was not compelled to be circumcised". [/quote']

King James Version - says it plain as day - Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, BEING A GREEK, was compelled to be circumcised.

He was not compelled to be circumcised because he was Greek. Being a Greek, the Jews would not think anything of his uncircumcision. That's what it means to me. If he were a Jew as Timothy (who had a Jew mother) and had not chosen to be circumcised then it would be offensive to the Jews.

[8thdaypriest]

Ok - Let's see if I can explain where I'm coming from on the LAW.

I see the 10 Words (Commands) as

THE COVENANT.

They were written on stone (a symbol of permanence) by the LORD Himself.

I see physical circumcision as

the SYMBOL of belonging to that covenant, being entitled to the promises of that covenant.

(Baptism in the name of Christ Jesus is NOW the symbol of belonging to that covenant. He has promised to write The 10 on our hearts - permanently.)

I see the system of sacrifice as

THE REMEDY if one broke covenant.

(We now have a new remedy - a better sacrifice.)

I see the Temple as the place where the GOD of Covenant physically manifest in this dimension - as the place where one went to approach HIM.

(The LORD physically demonstrated that His presence would no longer be there. The veil was torn by the Father Himself. "You HOUSE is left unto you desolate." This system is obsolete. Our High Priest now ministers at THE SANCTUARY - which is "Heaven itself.")

NOTE: Someday He will return physically to this dimension. His Tabernacle will be rebuilt. Ezekiel SAW it. Others prophesied about it. When that day comes - THAT will be the place where mankind is to approach Him.

Now - I believe that will only last for a period of time, until everyone (from "the rest of the dead") who wants to come, has come - then THAT Sanctuary will be destroyed at Gog-Magog because it will be located OUTSIDE of the City. When the Holy City comes down - John saw NO TEMPLE there. God and the Lamb ARE the Temple after that.

To continue:

I see the Feasts Days, and the sacrificial system, and all of the symbolism connected with the Sanctuary/Temple as ACTED PROPHECY. That symbolism/types will last into eternity. Christ was "anointed High Priest forever." He will be called "the LAMB of God" - forever. We will continue to come before the LORD at Sabbath, and the High Holy Days (Feasts), even in the earth made new. We will celebrate them as memorials. Revelation says that we will be priests. (I'm including myself in the redeemed.)

NOTE: The point is that right now, we CANNOT "keep" the Feasts as originally commanded, because we are NOT YET in the promised land. That would be the entire area promised to Abraham, not just the tiny piece of it that the Israelites occupy now.

The Hebrew Roots teachers cry, "Not a jot or a tittle shall pass from THE LAW, till all is fulfilled."

And most of us cry back, "It was ALL fulfilled, in the death of Jesus the Christ."

I believe that the LAW of SACRIFICE was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He was THE sacrifice, and symbolized EVERY sacrifice. (Remember the scapegoat was NOT sacrificed.)

I have shared my view on where I feel the weight of the evidence falls. If someone here presents me with information that makes me reconsider my view, I will definitely follow it up with much study.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[Ron Amnsn]

It is not a wise idea to apply a strict meaning to the word forever when found in a Bible verse. The Hebrew word for forever is "olam" (Strong"s # 5769), but it can mean without end, or never ending etc.. Or it may mean until the end of its life or until the Lord intervenes or it may just mean for a very long time

[Ron Amnsn]

The Hebrew Roots teachers cry, "Not a jot or a tittle shall pass from THE LAW, till all is fulfilled."

And most of us cry back, "It was ALL fulfilled, in the death of Jesus the Christ."

What was "ALL fulfilled"?

Jesus was talking about "the Law" and "the Prophets". In your post you also talked about something in "the Prophets" that was still not fulfilled-- Ezekiel's temple.

Also, you've only quoted part of what most Hebrew Roots teachers quote from Jesus in this regard. The rest of what Jesus said in that verse was, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matt 5:18) Are you saying that heaven and earth have already passed away?

It's easy to refute Hebrew Roots teachers when you misquote them.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

There was maybe a 9-inch separation. Scripture is totally silent about the significance of that 9-inch separation. All the explanations about the significance of that 9-inch separation are man-made speculation and non-Scriptural.

The nine inch separtion is a significant one of many distinctions between the two laws. The fact that God spoke the commandments to all Israel amid thunder and lightning and smoke, yet chose to instruct Moses privately about the ceremonial and civil laws; the fact that the commandments were written in stone by the finger of God and the Law of Moses was written on Papyrus by Moses; the fact that the commandments were placed inside the ark and under the mercy seat and the Law of Moses was given no such care or prominence; the fact that God delegated construction of everything in the entire sanctuary to men but excepted the commandments of which he alone took complete responsibility speaks volumes to everyone who has as ear to hear.

[Ron Amnsn]

If you want to hear from an SDA pastor who seems to know the arguments of the Feast Keepers & rebuts them very well, you might want to see Pastor St. Hilare's (sp) presentation.

Gerry, I went looking for information on this. I think you're referring to the BC Conference evangelist, Justis St. Hilaire. Google found a few pages that mentioned him in regard to refuting feast-keeping. He apparently has a $70 set of DVDs on the topic. Do you have any more info?

[Ron Amnsn]

Please Ron, look at your statement here. And you have the audacity to accuse others of reading into scripture what is not there?

What did I "read into" Scripture?

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

You are forcing a narrow non-Scriptural definition onto the word "commandments". In the original Hebrew (and in the Greek Septuagint), the "ten commandments" are actually called the "Ten Words", not the "ten commandments".

Using "commandments" to refer to the "Ten Words" is a mistranslation that misleads many Christians to think that the word "commandment" refers only to the "Ten Words. Using free Bible software like e-Sword, it takes only a simple search of the Hebrew or the Septuagint to verify that the words translated as "commandment" in the New Testament refer not to just the Ten Words, but to dozens of "commandments" of God within the Law of Moses.

Your making a meaningless comparison here. here. Of course their are commandments in the law of Moses as well. So what? The Bible points this out clearly :

2 Kings 21:8 .....only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

[Ron Amnsn]

It seems the more scripture i give you, the more you invent new rebuttals. You would think these scriptures would at least give you pause to reconsider your position, but no, you rush in deeper and your doctrine gets more and more implausible.

[Hair]

Good stuff, very interesting, I'd really like to see the original article.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

which makes it sound like you thought all the commandments of God are outside the Law of Moses.

Yes, they are separate and distinct because one is dispensation and applies to the Israelites and the other is for all mankind throughout earth's history.

You are spouting man-made doctrines again. Where does it in say in Scripture that one applies only to the Israelites and the other is for all mankind?

Zechariah 14 says that after all nations come against Jerusalem and are defeated by the Lord, He will reign as king over all the earth. Then it says in verse 16, "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

The Scriptures teach that celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles (Booths) will be required for all the nations (at least those who want rain), not just for the Israelites, as you are erroneously asserting.

And part of the Feast of Tabernacles includes teaching the Law of Moses to non-Israelites, as stated in Deut 31:10-13, "Then Moses commanded them, saying, "At the end of every seven years, at the time of the year of remission of debts, at the Feast of Booths, when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place which He will choose, you shall read this law in front of all Israel in their hearing. Assemble the people, the men and the women and children and the alien who is in your town, so that they may hear and learn and fear the LORD your God, and be careful to observe all the words of this law. Their children, who have not known, will hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as you live on the land which you are about to cross the Jordan to possess."

The prophecy of Zechariah 14 is a prophecy about Messiah, and Jesus said all those prophecies must be fulfilled. So eventually we will have all the nations going up to Jerusalem to learn to carefully observe the Law of Moses.

[Ron Amnsn]

Here is one verse where God makes the very distinction you oppose.

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

[Ron Amnsn]

There is a possibility that the two phrases in my previous post do not mean exactly the same thing.

Looking at the context of the places in the Old Testament where the word "command" (and it's other forms) are used in relation to God's instructions, it is possible that "according to all that I have commanded them" may refer to God's verbal instructions, while "according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them" may refer to God's written instructions.

For example:

Gen 6:22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.

Gen 7:5 Noah did according to all that the LORD had commanded him.

[Hair]

This is such an important issue.

EVERYTHING depends on if we should currently keep the Law of Moses or not.

[Ron Amnsn]

it is possible that "according to all that I have commanded them" may refer to God's verbal instructions, while "according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them" may refer to God's written instructions.

When God has verbally commanded people to observe the written instructions in the Law of Moses, then when people are following the verbal commands of God they will also follow the written instructions. If they ignore parts of the written instructions, then they are also ignoring what God commanded verbally.

It becomes rather irrelevant whether the written instructions were originally written with God's finger or with a human hand because God has verbally commanded that the written instructions are to be followed. God's spoken Word is not inferior to God's written Word-- indeed, it was God's spoken Word that created the Earth. If God verbally commanded (this is wildly hypothetical) that all people should believe and follow The 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs", it wouldn't matter whether or not that document was written with the finger of God, nor would it matter whether that document was placed inside or outside the locked safe at SDA headquarters.

[Ron Amnsn]

3. Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

Speaking directly to this charge p replied "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

I have started another topic to discuss the issues of Acts 15 and the decision of the Jerusalem Council regarding Gentiles, and specifically the "unbearable" yoke that Peter mentions.

That topic is called The "unbearable" yoke of Acts 15:10 .

[8thdaypriest]

I am following this thread with interest. I have not yet put up a study at my website on THE LAW. I want to be sure before I state a position. Ron has made some good points, but I am not convinced of his position that physical circumcision is still required for every male entering into covenant with Yahweh thru Yeshua.

I DO believe the Feasts will be celebrated for eternity, as memorials of the great events in the War of Salvation, but not with animal sacrifices or the Aaronic priesthood.

I ALSO recognize that we cannot "keep" them now - as originally commanded.

1. We are NOT "in the land" - not yet.

2. The Temple Mount is not under the control of Christ - not yet.

3. The Temple Mount WILL be taken over by "the enemy" who will "sit in the Temple of God showing himself that he is God." "He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him." (2 Thess 2:4, and Dan 11:45 NIV)

We will need to be VERY careful about WHO we worship on that Mount. I know some are pointing to the Muslims who worship Allah on that mount, but I think the "enemy" will be Satan himself, pretending to be Messiah for all religions.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

Study of the Word, searching for a correct understanding of how the LORD wants us to be in relationship with HIM is a good thing, and mostly very rewarding - but - it does not trump going over to help your 80 year old neighbor lady with her vege garden. Kindness comes first!!!!!

[Ron Amnsn]

I have often wondered about how and why feast day observances have crept into the Protestant churches and even some nominal Adventist churches...

[Ron Amnsn]

Just to keep the topics a little organized I'm replying here to some things posted about feast-keeping in the Acts 15 thread.

These Feast Days...each one tells of an important point in the freeing of the human race from the thralldom of sin, and how God is in a step-by-step fashion is restoring the human race back into the pulse of life He gives to His Creation - until at the last we are united with Him personally, free from all aspects of sin. They ought to be observed with this in mind.

Agreed.

[Ron Amnsn]

The BIG - and I do mean BIG - caveat? Absolutely NO ONE to truly knows how God wants these kept in faith. To keep these as a church/congregation of people, would mean adding layers of new and very HUMAN traditions upon the Word of God - and this would drive us further from the presence of God, and deeper into the dependence to measure our stature before God by imperfect human works.

Until God's people have an unequivocally clear message from a recognized prophet of God on the matter...we should refrain from going down that path, lest we place back upon ourselves that unbearable yoke.

It is my opinion God forgives admitted ignorance in respect to these things much more graciously, than a proud admission by one who THINKs they know enough to do it by the traditions they keep.

[Ron Amnsn]

Again, I'm responding to this post about feasts in this thread that is dealing with the feasts.

But - we Israelites CANNOT keep the Feasts as originally commanded.

We CANNOT go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year.

We CANNOT sacrifice at the Temple there

- 'cause there is NO physical Temple on earth right now.

Yes, most of the Israelites are currently in exile. They've been in exile before.

Let's consider several different Israelite men and their wives.

• Mr. & Mrs. One live in Athens, Greece today in 2013.
• Mr. & Mrs. Two lived in Athens, Greece while Jesus the Messiah was a boy in Nazareth.
• Mr. & Mrs. Three lived in Athens, Greece while the prophet Daniel was in Babylon.
• Mr. & Mrs. Four lived in Athens, Greece ten years after King Solomon built the Temple.
• Mr. & Mrs. Five lived in the hills near Nazareth in Galilee ten years after King Solomon built the Temple.

Each family wants to devoutly observe the Day of Atonement in their home town, and they all want to do it in exactly the same manner as the other families.

Specifically which instructions in the Bible stipulate that some of these people must behave differently on the Day of Atonement?

Is there anything in the Bible that would keep the families from all behaving in exactly the same way on the Day of Atonement?

Okay, same two questions again except this time they want to devoutly observe the Feast of Trumpets in their home town. May all the families observe the day in the same manner?

Now, let's consider the other feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. As much as possible the five families want to devoutly observe these feasts in their home town and they want to do it in the same manner as the other families. Mr. Five is required to go up to Jerusalem for these feasts where he will participate at the Temple where there are sacrifices. The first four families can't travel to Jerusalem, so they can't do the sacrifices.

Is there anything in the Bible that would keep the first four families from experiencing exactly the same activities for Passover? For Pentecost?, For Tabernacles?

Could the first four families experience the same activities that Mrs. Five experiences for these feasts (if Mrs. Five is permitted by God's original instructions to stay around Nazareth for the feasts)?

So, Rachel, when you say, "we Israelites CANNOT keep the Feasts as originally commanded," what specifically is preventing you from behaving like Mrs. Five on each of God's feast days? What is keeping you from behaving like Mrs. Four on each of God's feast days?

Rachel, don't keep ignoring the questions. Answer at least the last two questions.

[Ron Amnsn]

We are still in the wilderness.

Israel was to keep the Feasts - "when you are come into the land."

We - redeemed Israel - are NOT YET in the land promised to Abraham.

Rachel,

It sounds like you may still be in the wilderness experiencing the first exodus, but the Israelites are in exile waiting for the Second Exodus that was foretold by the prophets.

Our forefathers long ago entered the Land promised to Abraham. They received their inheritance there. But they have been scattered among the nations temporarily.

There are specific prophecies about the Israelites in exile returning to God, and then to their land.

[8thdaypriest]

I do NOT think that being an Israelite has ANYTHING to do with DNA.

It is about faith.

We are grafted into the Israel of faith.

I don't know about you, but I am NOT in exile from, because I've never BEEN IN the

land promised to Abraham - the promised land. And it would not matter how many times I have visited Jerusalem.

The political nation we call Israel today is a counterfeit, for the future real one - of faith. And the land they occupy is NOT the promised land - flowing with milk and honey, where the lion lies down with the calf governed by Yeshua Himself. It is a war-torn patch of dirt, currently occupied by the faithless.