Consciences Objectors vs Military

[Gordon1]

The purpose of the military is to go to war.

This is absolutely true, esp. of the U.S. armed forces.

Waging war is America's principal activity today (with Canada & Nato as strong allies). So it's not hard to visualize a war on saints. All the gear and personnel are in place.

By all accounts, the U.S. has been at war continually for decades - sometimes declared, often not. There are reportedly over 700 U.S military bases spanning the globe. Who can match that kind of diplomacy?

And nuclear war is waged today, as it was in the Gulf and the Balkans. Also known as Depleted Uranium munitions. No mushroom cloud, just millions of tons of radioactive dust. Not good for troops or civilians. Birth defects are through the roof.

[CoAspen]

Care to present some 'facts' with your rant?

[Gordon1]

Every job that you mention above has a combat related function and every one of them requires the people in those positions to be qualified in the use of weapons and prepared to use them.

Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly does not understand the foundational role of the U.S. military.

The principal role of a soldier is to obey commands.

That's the deal one makes when signing up.

We pay you - you obey us. (Conscription/draft is a little different).

Every SDA who voluntarily joins an army or police force, or serves in any government or corporate capacity, should ponder his or her future role in prophecy.

Will I betray God and His people for a paycheck?

"Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers." (2 Corinthians 6:14)

[phkrause]

For me personally, I believe each US citizen should have to serve his country.

[Gordon1]

For me personally, I believe each US citizen should have to serve his country.

I believe every creature should serve the Creator.

Only mankind seems to rebel against ownership.

[Tom Wetmore]

Gordon, perhaps you missed the Scripture that says to respect and obey earthly authorities, because God has set them up...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The Pinocchio Test

Waging war is America's principal activity today...

no, it isn't...

there are 1,455,375 active US military personnel, compared to:

- over 1.6 million prisoners in the US

- over 7.2 million teachers and professors in the US

- over 18 million healthcare personnel in the US

Originally Posted By: gordon1

There are reportedly over 700 U.S military bases spanning the globe.

The DOD reports 611 US military "sites" around the world. Of those, only 20 are "large" facilites - the rest are small. Some are VERY tiny, for example, 9 troops are in Mali, 8 are in Barbados, 7 in Laos, 6 in Lithuania.

[Textus Receptus]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

For me personally, I believe each US citizen should have to serve his country.

I believe every creature should serve the Creator.

Only mankind seems to rebel against ownership.

Exactly! The red white and blue, is now working for the scarlet, purple and gold. Patriotism is a tool used by Rome to rally Gods people around satans second beast. Yes, we must render unto ceasar what is cesars, and pray for our leaders, but this doesnt mean we have to help them prepare for the persecution of Gods people even if its a hundred years from now. I want no part in helping the USA become the worlds only superpower as it was prophesized.

As for the scripture where God sets up rulers, God allows, this was even the fact for king David. I would have a hard time in believing that God set up Hitler.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I find it disgusting to read drivel from folks who readily partake of the freedoms and benefits offered by America, then turn around and denigrate and cast aspersions on the military and citizenry who have fought and still fight to keep those freedoms.

[Textus Receptus]

I find it disgusting to read drivel from folks who readily partake of the freedoms and benefits offered by America, then turn around and denigrate and cast aspersions on the military and citizenry who have fought and still fight to keep those freedoms.

You are proof that the age of innocence is not lost. You my kind sir or madam, need to educate yourself on the history of the US. According to prophecy, we are in the age of percieved freedoms, not actual freedoms. Frankly, you are unbelievably naive in not thinking that Rome dosent already control the world. You need to do yourself a service and 'research' the Jesuits, and their role in global politics. Again, I FEEL for those who are SDA that will be in the military when the Sunday law takes affect.

[phkrause]

It will make no difference's if we are in the military or not when the Sunday Laws come into effect. We will either stand up for our rights or cave in.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Frankly, you are unbelievably naive in not thinking that Rome dosent already control the world.

Yes, you are either naive or self deluded in thinking the statement you made is true.

Conspiracy believer???

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You are proof that the age of innocence is not lost. You my kind sir or madam, need to educate yourself on the history of the US. According to prophecy, we are in the age of percieved freedoms, not actual freedoms. Frankly, you are unbelievably naive in not thinking that Rome dosent already control the world. You need to do yourself a service and 'research' the Jesuits, and their role in global politics. Again, I FEEL for those who are SDA that will be in the military when the Sunday law takes affect.

Gee, thanks for the nice compliments.

1) I just might know more about American History than you do, my friend.

2) Sorry, but Rome does not control the world. The Roman Empire ended in 476 AD. The Holy Roman Empire ended in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. Perhaps a course in Western Civ is is order?

3) I already know about the Jesuits, Jesuit conspiracy theories, and the machinations of the minds which dwell on such things and the hand-wringing involved..

[LifeHiscost]

1) I just might know more about American History than you do, my friend.

2) Sorry, but Rome does not control the world. The Roman Empire ended in 476 AD. The Holy Roman Empire ended in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. Perhaps a course in Western Civ is is order?

3) I already know about the Jesuits, Jesuit conspiracy theories, and the machinations of the minds which dwell on such things and the hand-wringing involved..

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this text.

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child." Revelation 12:9-14 NKJV

It is true that when it is said the whole world is deceived, as underlined above, I'm assuming from the scripture below, that does not apply to those who willingly yield themselves over to Jesus' care, definitely not because we're so intelligent about history.

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober." 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

We will either stand up for our rights or cave in.

I prefer to see it in this light.

"Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,

Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:"

Jeremiah 11:2-4 KJV

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I find it disgusting to read drivel from folks who readily partake of the freedoms and benefits offered by America

Those who receive their freedoms from America will lose those freedoms when America so chooses. Those who receive their freedoms from the Lord Jesus Christ will keep them through eternity.

“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered... but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”"John 18:35-37 NKJV

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I would have a hard time in believing that God set up Hitler.

And yet this is what happened to the Israelites when disobedient.

"“Oholah played the harlot while she was Mine; and she lusted after her lovers, after the Assyrians, her neighbors," Ezekiel 23:5 NASB

"“Therefore I have delivered her Into the hand of her lovers, Into the hand of the Assyrians, For whom she lusted."Ezekiel 23:9 NKJB

God cares!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The years keep going by, and as far as I can tell your "Second Beast" keeps getting weaker. The older I get, the more bizarre the idea of a world-wide theocracy led by the Pope gets.

I agree, Igakusei. There are so many more realistic scenarios in today's world. In order to avoid being declared an infidel and heretic (again), I will refrain from mentioning my top 100. You're a smart, open-minded guy. You are probably aware of the same scenarios that I am.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I find it disgusting to read drivel from folks who readily partake of the freedoms and benefits offered by America, then turn around and denigrate and cast aspersions on the military and citizenry who have fought and still fight to keep those freedoms.

I agree Pam. I also find it disturbing that people can't allow themselves (or others) to have different ideas than the ideas we have been nursing for the past 150 years. If the entire world thought that way, we would still be riding horses to our jobs as blacksmiths and lumberjacks and cowboys.

Hmmm - now that I write that, it doesn't sound half-bad...

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Quote:

I find it disgusting to read drivel from folks who readily partake of the freedoms and benefits offered by America, then turn around and denigrate and cast aspersions on the military and citizenry who have fought and still fight to keep those freedoms.

Quote:

I agree Pam. I also find it disturbing that people can't allow themselves (or others) to have different ideas than the ideas we have been nursing for the past 150 years.

OTOH, the more we decry the right of others to dissent from what we find logically defensive, if willing to give all equal opportunity including ourselves, the more we lock ourselves into a non-defensible position, the very thing we accuse the legalistic religionist of doing, and perhaps rightly so though none of us like to think "we" would do such a thing.

God cares!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The principal role of a soldier is to obey commands.

As applied to the U.S. military--wrong!

The principal role of the U.S. military is to accomplish the mission. It can never be predicted as to exactly how that will need to be done. In the U.S. military personnel are taught to evaluate what needs to be done to accomplish the mission and to than do it.

Anyone who studies military history quickly learns that the great generals, those who conquered much under great adversity, did so by thinking outside of the box. In U.S. history one can see that in the leadership of McArthur, the invasion of Korea at Inchon (which was believed would be a failure) the invasion of Iraq.

That objective of accomplishing the mission is carried down to the squad leader. One can best see this in Delta Force in the U.S. Army. With Delta Force they are simply given a mission, and it is up to the team to develop the method of accomplishing that mission which is then resourced according to the method developed by the team.

A recent example of this is with the Seal team that took out Osama ben Lauden.

A soldier who thinks that his/her mission is simply to obey orders is simply not going to last very long. That person will soon be out.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

The years keep going by, and as far as I can tell your "Second Beast" keeps getting weaker. The older I get, the more bizarre the idea of a world-wide theocracy led by the Pope gets.

I agree, Igakusei. There are so many more realistic scenarios in today's world. In order to avoid being declared an infidel and heretic (again), I will refrain from mentioning my top 100. You're a smart, open-minded guy. You are probably aware of the same scenarios that I am.

When I speculate about how things will transpire, I typically will do so while using scripture as a test. If scripture notes that Rome will be the last kingdom that will exist until the end, even though it may seem unlikely given the lack of overt evidence, I will always side with the prophets.

Lucifer wants nothing more than for God's people to have a false sense of security. Moreover, it pleases him when people question and doubt the prophets.

I have said many times on this forum, that Lucifer is much more intelligent than any of us. When I want to put things back into perspective, I remember that even the Son of God had to go and prepare himself in the wilderness in order to withstand the intellictual effectualness of Lucifer.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Prov 3:5

I do understand that many have made a tremendous sacrifice for their country, including my nephew in Afghanistan who did 2 tours, and my 2nd cousin in Vietnam, and best friend's brother in Iraq, both giving the ultimate sacrifice. I will never disparage this. My point is, is that as Adventist, we have the tremendous advantage of understanding politics, in light of prophecy. As such, I no longer believe that the U.S. is working for the Lord. Whether we like it or not, God is slowly removing His holy spirit from this world and He wants us to focus more on our heavenly citizenship rather than a nation that will be brought to its knees.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:2-3

[LifeHiscost]

I have said many times on this forum, that Lucifer is much more intelligent than any of us. When I want to put things back into perspective, I remember that even the Son of God had to go and prepare himself in the wilderness in order to withstand the intellictual effectualness of Lucifer.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Prov 3:5

I do understand that many have made a tremendous sacrifice for their country, including my nephew in Afghanistan who did 2 tours, and my 2nd cousin in Vietnam, and best friend's brother in Iraq, both giving the ultimate sacrifice. I will never disparage this. My point is, is that as Adventist, we have the tremendous advantage of understanding politics, in light of prophecy. As such, I no longer believe that the U.S. is working for the Lord. Whether we like it or not, God is slowly removing His holy spirit from this world and He wants us to focus more on our heavenly citizenship rather than a nation that will be brought to its knees.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:2-3