Did Ellen G White Copy?

[Gregory Matthews]

There has been much discussion over the years as to the issue of EGW and material that she was said to have copied.

The General Conference commissioned Dr. Fred Veltman to research this issue. He spent eight (8) full-time years in researching this issue as related to her book, THE DESIRE "OF AGES. His report, running into hundreds of pages has been posted by the General Conference on the Internet and available to the public.

You may access here:

http://docs.adventistarchives.org//docum...DateOrder=False

If this subject interests you, I suggest that you access it.

Note: In order to view the Veltman documents you will need to download the free DJVU Browser Plugin which you can do from the website.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It'd be nice to have a Reader's Digest condensed version.. I just scanned quite a bit of the book, but it's really difficult to grasp any salient information unless one reads the whole thing...which would be rather tedious...

[LifeHiscost]

This subject has been discussed in detail somewhere in the past on CA under the point of plagiarizing. In my opinion, even if every word she wrote was taken from some other identifiable source it would not be troublesome in establishing her authenticity for having been used by God to spread the good news.

Plagiarizing did not become a problem until people saw themselves' able to make more money if no one were able to use the material they discovered without paying them for it. Here's a good PDF that might be of interest, to catch up on more recent views of the practice.

http://www.njsbf.org/images/content/1/1/11085/Plagiarism07_final.pdf

A couple of examples of individuals who shared freely the information God had given them privy to, and didn't seem to suffer any deprivation as a result, was Thomas Alva Edison and George Washington Carver, both devout believers who practiced their faith in the Word that it was "more blessed to give than to receive". I believe Booker T. Washington was also one of those who took his talents seriously as gifts received from God.

Each of these men received more, and in abundance, at least partially as a result of their willingness to share unselfishly.

God cares!

[Don777]

Inspiration works through all avenues to the soul

(I have been contemplating this for years. Here are some of my most recent thoughts on the matter. Not set in concrete, yet.)

The gift of inspiration, i.e. the NT spiritual gift of prophecy, is one of God's ways of reaching us. He does so through another person. This other person is moved by God's Spirit and then in turn they reach out to their intended audience.

The issue, IMO, is not did Ellen White copy something. But rather, did she intend for that message, copied or not, to be communicated as it reads. In the material which she chose to publish, her intention is obvious.

From another perspective: God influences and inspires his messengers. He does so in a wide variety of ways. After comparing what Ellen White wrote with what seem to be her sources, I have come away rather pleased with her reading material.

Ellen White, and others at the very beginning of Adventism, only had extremists for association since mainstream Christianity wanted nothing to do with them. Thus, Ellen White spent much of her time visiting these extremists and trying to bring them back to good sense.

We are all influenced by the people we associate with, either in person, or by their books. Ellen White read some pretty profound authors; authors with whom I would be pleased to associate.

Do I believe that her inspiration came partially through reading from these authors? Yes. And, the Adventist church is better because of these connections. They influenced Ellen White and because we have learned to trust her writings, we too have been influenced by these sound thinkers of the 19th Century.

[Green Cochoa]

Of course Ellen White copied. So did Peter, Paul, and James. And others.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[joeb]

Here's a very good site on this issue.

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html

[Kevin H]

When Mrs. White started writing, the popular press had a lot of copying from each other while the scholarly press would footnote. The Review belonged to an association of (I forgot the exact number, at least 100, may have been as high as 1,000) different religious journals where they all sent a free copy of their journal to each other so that the writers from the journals could copy from each other, get stimulated for ideas on topics to write on, and they would make the rewrite their own, but base on the massive copying. This was how the journals could keep coming up with articles to write so that they could stay in print.

When the other journals came they were first taken to Mrs. White where she had first dibs, then the articles she did not choose could be used by others who wrote for the Review, and writers from these other journals were free to copy from Mrs. White and others who wrote for the Review.

This was besides the different books out there and other places where she would study.

Ellen and James had to first decide whether to go the route of the scholarly books and footnote, or the route of popular books and copy without footnoting. They choose to go the route of the popular press, probably with their sense of urgency that Jesus was coming soon. And Mrs. White's books are written with a sense of urgency.

Mrs. White was a literary genius, but she sadly did not trust her talent. She kept looking for phrases that she thought were a better way of saying her ideas than her words were. however on some topics, such as the Great Controversy theme, where she had to depend more on her words, they tend to be some of her best works. And with these phrases that she thought sounded better that her words, she would often paraphrase them into something even better than the original.

With this sense of urgency, and her worry that her words were not as beautiful as someone else's, she did develop the habit of copying. Then as time went by the copyright rules got stricter and started applying to the popular press. By that time Mrs. White had lost most of her sources, and from all the thousands of journal articles that she read when the Review belonged to that association, and from all the books that she read, she would not remember where she got those quotes from.

[Bird's Eye View]

The Bible is said to also be a collection of writings borrowed from other texts and mythologies as well.

Nothing new under the sun?

[Ted Oplinger]

I've no problem with the issue of what was copied and what was not, with respect to EGW's works. To apply today's literary rules of copying/plagiarism to works written 130+ years ago, when rules were vastly different, is but an exercise in juggling fallacious standards in the effort to discredit what hits upon the conscience, in my opinion.

Inspiration and outreach by the Holy Spirit can take any of several avenues, not just the ones we want to recognize...

Blessings,

[Gustave]

The problem isn't that Ellen White copied material off other people....

...The problem is that she denied copying material from others.

...I.E. she lied after she stole.

That's the problem - that's always been the problem from what I know about it.

[Gerr]

That she lied about using other people's material is a total lie!!! She made it clear in the "author's preface" that:

"In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but except in a few instances no specific credit has been given, since they are not quoted for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject. In narrating the experience and views of those carrying forward the work of reform in our own time, similar use has occasionally been made of their published works." {GC88 h.1}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. (1888). (p. d). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[Gustave]

That she lied about using other people's material is a total lie!!! She made it clear in the "author's preface" that:

"In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but except in a few instances no specific credit has been given, since they are not quoted for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject. In narrating the experience and views of those carrying forward the work of reform in our own time, similar use has occasionally been made of their published works." {GC88 h.1}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. (1888). (p. d). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

I'm afraid it's NOT a lie Gerry...

...Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept.

...It is however, still the truth.

Click the following link and start reading on page 29...

...Paying CLOSE attention to pages 31 & 32.

...When Ellen was accused of taking other's material listen to what was said about it.

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/LOCRP/LOCRP-01_Intro-A/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=31

James White

Does unbelief suggest that what she writes in her personal testimonies has been learned from others? We inquire, What time has she had to learn all these facts? And who for a moment can regard her as a Christian woman, if she gives her ear to gossip, then writes it out as a vision from God?

...

If Mrs. W. has gathered the facts from a human mind in a single case, she has in thousands of cases, and God has not shown her these things which she has written in these personal testimonies.

...

And if they are not to be found in print, and are not brought out in sermons from the pulpit, where did Mrs. W. find them? From what source has she received the new and rich thoughts which are to be found in her writings and oral

addresses? She could not have learned them from books, from the fact that they do not contain such thoughts. And, certainly, she did not learn them from those ministers who had not thought of them. The case is a clear one James white, Life Sketches, Early Life, Christian Experience and Extensive Labors of Elder James White, and His Wife, Mrs. Ellen G. White (Battle Creek, Steam Press. 1880) pp. 328-329

The problem Gerry is that these things WERE FOUND IN PRINT....

...Prior to Ellen claiming she wrote them out.

...So, just like the Ape / human hybrid teaching of Ellen White.

...Her best apologists demonstrate exactly what was going on.

[Gerr]

Instead of quoting what OTHERS have claimed, why don't you find from her OWN pen where she ever made such a claim? As for the amalgamation of man and beast issue, that has been dealt with but critics continue to find fault. BTW, no doubt by this time you have heard of genetic engineering? Yeah, how many prophets have been stoned, beheaded, thrown into a pit? Yeah, go ahead. Throw the stones. As Gamaliel counseled the Church's persecutors, if this is of God you cannot overthrow it.

[skyblue888]

I understand that the publishers were

admonished to give credit to whom credit

was due and they were told that if they

refused to do this it would create

problems in the future but they did not

heed the warning. But I am not sure why

Mrs. White did not urge the publishers

to follow that instruction.

[Gustave]

Instead of quoting what OTHERS have claimed, why don't you find from her OWN pen where she ever made such a claim? As for the amalgamation of man and beast issue, that has been dealt with but critics continue to find fault. BTW, no doubt by this time you have heard of genetic engineering? Yeah, how many prophets have been stoned, beheaded, thrown into a pit? Yeah, go ahead. Throw the stones. As Gamaliel counseled the Church's persecutors, if this is of God you cannot overthrow it.

By others you mean your own Church scholars LOL!

...It's your church archives Gerry.

...But I'm happy to share Ellen's pen with you.

Ellen White

After the passing of the time in 1844 we searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with the brethren, and we studied and prayed earnestly... When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon ME. I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given ME, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, his mission, and his priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Review and Herald, May 25, 1905)

Ellen White

Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony.... I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).

Ellen White

There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

Ellen White

The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 30)

Ellen White

I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit." (Letter 50, 1906)

[Gustave]

Instead of quoting what OTHERS have claimed, why don't you find from her OWN pen where she ever made such a claim? As for the amalgamation of man and beast issue, that has been dealt with but critics continue to find fault. BTW, no doubt by this time you have heard of genetic engineering? Yeah, how many prophets have been stoned, beheaded, thrown into a pit? Yeah, go ahead. Throw the stones. As Gamaliel counseled the Church's persecutors, if this is of God you cannot overthrow it.

Face the facts, Ellen affirmed that Apes had bred Negress in Africa...

...And that this beastial union produced confused fruit.

...Which in turn continued to breed causing confusion everywhere.

When the Baptists became vocal about what Ellen had been teaching....

...The SDA apologists, authorized by the SDA General Conference.

...Used the affirmations of "Naturalists" who affirmed Apes could breed human females!

[Stan]

>>>Face the facts, Ellen affirmed that Apes had bred Negress in Africa...

REALLY??????

[Stan]

see http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...t.html#Post8804

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Instead of quoting what OTHERS have claimed, why don't you find from her OWN pen where she ever made such a claim? As for the amalgamation of man and beast issue, that has been dealt with but critics continue to find fault. BTW, no doubt by this time you have heard of genetic engineering? Yeah, how many prophets have been stoned, beheaded, thrown into a pit? Yeah, go ahead. Throw the stones. As Gamaliel counseled the Church's persecutors, if this is of God you cannot overthrow it.

Face the facts, Ellen affirmed that Apes had bred Negress in Africa...

...And that this beastial union produced confused fruit.

...Which in turn continued to breed causing confusion everywhere.

And where is this found? In 1 Satanas 1:6?

[Stan]

>>And where is this found? In 1 Satanas 1:6?

Good one...

[Gerr]

That she lied about using other people's material is a total lie!!! She made it clear in the "author's preface" that:

"In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but except in a few instances no specific credit has been given, since they are not quoted for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject. In narrating the experience and views of those carrying forward the work of reform in our own time, similar use has occasionally been made of their published works." {GC88 h.1}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. (1888). (p. d). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Her library was open to all who visited her home. It is incredible that she would make a secret of her use of other author's material.

And I wonder why she did not chose to copy Mesmer's writings nor recommended his methods? Or tobacco for its medicinal value?

[Gerr]

Ellen White

After the passing of the time in 1844 we searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with the brethren, and we studied and prayed earnestly... When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon ME. I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given ME, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, his mission, and his priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Review and Herald, May 25, 1905)

Ellen White

Before I stand on my feet, I have no thought of speaking as plainly as I do. But the Spirit of God rests upon me with power, and I CANNOT but speak the words GIVEN me. I dare not withhold one word of the testimony.... I speak the words GIVEN ME by a higher power than human power, and I CANNOT, if I would, recall [retract] one sentence” (1MR 28).

Ellen White

There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

Ellen White

The Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy." (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 30)

Ellen White

I am thankful that the instruction contained in my books establishes present truth for this time. These books were written under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit." (Letter 50, 1906)

Non sequitor quotations! Do these deny use of other author's works? Does inspiration exclude the use of other people's works? It is one thing to doubt that she was inspired by God. It is quite another thing to fabricate lies when she has openly proclaimed her use of other people's material.

Here again are her own words for all who wants to know the truth whether she was in denial and lying or not:

In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but except in a few instances no specific credit has been given, since they are not quoted for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject. In narrating the experience and views of those carrying forward the work of reform in our own time, similar use has occasionally been made of their published works. {GC88 h.1}

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. (1888). (p. d). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all ’given by inspiration of God’ (2 Tim. 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed, have themselves embodied the thought in human language. {1SM 25.1}

White, E. G. (1958). Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1 (p. 25). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

"God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do His work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, none the less, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth." {1SM 26.1}

White, E. G. (1958). Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1 (p. 26). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[phkrause]

And where is this found? In 1 Satanas 1:6?

Sorry, but I had to Its very sad that people can not stop stabbing a dead person, in the back!!!!! Over and over and over and over again!! She must really be scary or something?

[Kevin H]

The problem isn't that Ellen White copied material off other people....

...The problem is that she denied copying material from others.

...I.E. she lied after she stole.

That's the problem - that's always been the problem from what I know about it.

I know that there are quotes that are used to make it sound like Mrs. White was denying her copying. However these texts are taken out of historical context. They were made to people who were acquainted with her copying, and she KNEW that they were acquainted with her copying, many of them being the people who helped her copy.

The context of those quotes are not whether or not she copied, but if she got her basic message from those she was copying from.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And where is this found? In 1 Satanas 1:6?

Sorry, but I had to Its very sad that people can not stop stabbing a dead person, in the back!!!!! Over and over and over and over again!! She must really be scary or something?

These critics can not and could not disprove SDA doctrines from the Bible, so destroying the credibility of one of the founders would be the next best thing.

And notice, Gustave has not mentioned what good news it is that he believes in, none that I remember anyway.