Did Ellen G White Copy?

[stinsonmarri]

Amen!

Happy Sabbath

[stinsonmarri]

Here we go again can we discuss EGW with facts and kindness. Here are the facts EGW used the resources available in her day. It is a known fact that many copy other people sources until it was stopped and called plagiarism. Was she a prophet no she was not! How come we will not believe what she said herself about this matter? EGW saw what was already written if not why did she continue to say take the Bible? The last prophet was John who YAHSHUA reveal to him by Gabriel the Spirit of Prophecy! I believe in what she saw because it comes from the Bible. I question the historical facts because I am a Biblical historian. She took what was available and she stated that. I disagree with some of her opinions based on religious thoughts of the day. EGW wanted us to stand up to some of her and others errors in truth that they had wrong. She wanted us to continue to study discuss them with an open mind. But it is so hard because so many want to argue instead of listening and to be able to disagree showing what the Bible and yes true historical facts have to say. What makes me sad is that we cannot intelligently, prayerfully disagree without blowing everything out of proportion. Or taking what one says to be wrong without being angry or accusing them of not being an SDA! Here my points of view and I hope that I find others that will listen, understand what I wrote, and respond back in agreement or not but with a contrite and loving spirit.

Happy Sabbath to all!

[Gustave]

>>And where is this found? In 1 Satanas 1:6?

Good one...

No Stan, the following are the "good ones".

The Seventh-day Adventist Review & Herald, Page 2, "Overcoming".

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18781128-V52-22__B.pdf#view=fit

Spirit of Prophecy, Yol. 1, page 78, was referred to and ridiculed by the Baptist minister. He said that what Sister White said ABOUT amalgamation of man AND beast was utterly impossible. I referred him to Johnson's New Cyclopedia, pp. 1040, 1042, that he might learn for the first time, if he never knew it before, that " Allied species are capable, as a rule, of pairing and producing offspring; " and that, " under the influence of man, mongrel races readily arise and are indefinitely sustained,"—just exactly what Sister White says. The elder said her teachings were worse than Darwinism. But I showed that her teachings were correct [/b[color:#FF0000]](Lev, 18:23, 24), and that his were worse than nonsense. It is not likely that he will be profited' by what I referred him to; for he did not come to hear his discourse reviewed, although before the public I invited him to do so.

Anyone that has access to news knows it's NOT impossible for people to have sex with animals...

...Evidently Moses was aware of this in his own day.

...Given the Bible says what it does in Lev 18!

So, just so we are clear here - it's NOT impossible for someone to do this...

...The Baptist Minister who wrote against Ellen's affirmations also KNEW THIS.

...What the Baptist was saying that an animal couldn't breed a human - & produce offspring!

...THAT was what was he was saying was impossible.

You can easily read what the Adventist Review said in defense of Ellen...

...And you can further read how the apologetics were pondered and agreed with.

...By the General Conference of SDA to combat the Baptists on this issue.

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18660612-V28-02__B.pdf#view=fit

Page 8. Directly before the "Deliver us from Pork" Article.

Seventh-day Adventist Review and Herald

Resolved, That we, the members of the General

and Mich. State Conference, having heard a portion

Of the manuscript read, which has been prepared by

Bro. U. Smith, in answer to certain objections recently

brought against the visions of Sister White, do hereby

express our hearty approval of the same. Resolved, That we tender our thanks to Bro. Smith for his able defense of the visions against the attacks of their opponents.

In case you missed it that's a direct admission that the General Conference understood Ellen's ape teachings...

...Exactly the same way as the Baptist Minister did.

...And subsequently signed off on the SDA Apologetics defending that teaching.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The problem isn't that Ellen White copied material off other people....

...The problem is that she denied copying material from others.

...I.E. she lied after she stole.

That's the problem - that's always been the problem from what I know about it.

I know that there are quotes that are used to make it sound like Mrs. White was denying her copying. However these texts are taken out of historical context. They were made to people who were acquainted with her copying, and she KNEW that they were acquainted with her copying, many of them being the people who helped her copy.

The context of those quotes are not whether or not she copied, but if she got her basic message from those she was copying from.

Early on Ellen White was accused of taking material from OTHER authors....

...This was met with swift denial from her husband who denied she took material from others.

...He said she got it all from God.

Ellen herself claimed she got it from God....

...Exactly as her own quotes establish.

[Gerr]

Early on Ellen White was accused of taking material from OTHER authors....

...This was met with swift denial from her husband who denied she took material from others.

...He said she got it all from God.

Ellen herself claimed she got it from God....

...Exactly as her own quotes establish.

So in your zeal to discredit her you ignore her OWN testimony and would rather accept what others say about her work? Of course, there are materials that came from God alone! To lift her statements that apply to materials that came from God alone and then apply them to the whole body of her work is neither good scholarship nor honest.

"In some cases where a historian has so grouped together events as to afford, in brief, a comprehensive view of the subject, or has summarized details in a convenient manner, his words have been quoted; but except in a few instances no specific credit has been given, since they are not quoted for the purpose of citing that writer as authority, but because his statement affords a ready and forcible presentation of the subject."

The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Great Controversy. (1888). (p. d). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[Gustave]

So in your zeal to discredit her you ignore her OWN testimony and would rather accept what others say about her work? Of course, there are materials that came from God alone! To lift her statements that apply to materials that came from God alone and then apply them to the whole body of her work is neither good scholarship nor honest.

[stinsonmarri]

I don't know what a mongrel is but she was correct. Because the Bible says so:

Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. Lev 18:23

‘Cursed is he who lies with any beast.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ Deut 27:21

If you notice in the above Texts both were not to lie with any animal. But the woman if she did it would cause confusion.

We need to think and get clear understanding of the capabilities of man. Man's mind under sin would use all his

Capabilities to create havoc to what he was suppose to take care and keep under check!

And ELOHIM saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5 (KJV)

And YAHWEH said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 11:6 (KJV)

Do you think that dinosaurs just happen to be created and then wiped out? Check out the mules folks it was not made by ELOHIM! All these wonderful inventions with DNA has cause USA to become over eaters, greedy, uncaring and ruthless. Man has taken what ELOHIM has given him to do unthinkable things.

For in it is revealed how ELOHIM makes people righteous in HIS sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” What is revealed is ELOHIM’S Anger from Heaven against all the wickedness and unrighteousness of people who in their wickedness keep suppressing the truth; because what is known about ELOHIM is plain to them, since ELOHIM has made it plain to them. For ever since the Creation of the Universe HIS INVISIBLE QUALITIES— both HIS ETERNAL POWERS and HIS MIGHTINESS — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what ELOHIM has made. Therefore, they have no excuse; because, although they know who ELOHIM is, they do not Glorify the FATHER as ELOHIM or thank HIM. On the contrary, they have become futile in their thinking; and their undiscerning hearts have become darkened. Claiming to be wise, they have become fools! In fact, they have exchanged the GLORY of the IMMORTAL ELOHIM for mere images, like a mortal human being, or like birds, animals or reptiles! This is why ELOHIM has given them up to the vileness of their hearts’ lusts, to the shameful misuse of each other’s bodies. They have exchanged the truth of ELOHIM for falsehood, by worshipping and serving created things, rather than the CREATORS — praised be to the FATHER forever. Amen. This is why ELOHIM has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion. In other words, since they have not considered ELOHIM worth knowing, ELOHIM has given them up to worthless ways of thinking; so that they do improper things. They are filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and vice; stuffed with jealousy, murder, quarrelling, dishonesty and ill-will; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of ELOHIM; they are insolent, arrogant and boastful; they plan evil schemes; they disobey their parents; they are brainless, faithless, heartless and ruthless. They know well enough ELOHIM’S decree that people who do such things deserve to die; yet not only do they keep doing them, but they applaud others who do the same. Rom 1:17-30

If you think that there were no mermaids, centaurs, Cyclops, and other subhuman creatures then you don't believe in the following:

Cloning,

DNA splicing,

A cat and a rabbit mix together known as cabbits,

Plant mutation, mingling or mixing of seeds,

Hormone produce food,

Tobacco and food that make you grave,

Test tube babies.

This is just a few. Wake up Adventist this is real Satan has used man's mind to do the most unbelievable things! That is why he took man's original language and man's mind became subdue for centuries! Man form new languages it took time but he's back and he about to wreck havoc on earth unless YAHSHUA stops him by returning to put an end to sin!

Blessings everyone!

[Guest arnie]

Has anyone read "The White Lie" by Walter Rea? The evidence is pretty overwhelming. The extensiveness of Ellen's copying was incredible. He has documented pages & pages of her copying. Since I was taught that everything she wrote came directly from visions, it was quite devastating. When I started seriously reading the Bible, it was clear she was not always on the same page. As to the reference to the copying of Peter, James and John, ect., I'm sure these guys had a first hand account, since most of them were there when the gospel became apparent. I'll try to find the following, but I know I read it somewhere in Testimonies that women who wore corsets produced wasp waisted offspring (women). I wonder what the wearing of corsets did to the male children of such women? Ellen did publish some things that really made sense,however, but the question is who told her? Does it matter? Well, it certainly does for me. Try writing a college thesis without referencing in the class of any SDA University or any University on that assumption and see where it gets you, yet the Church continues to find justification for Ellen's plaigerism. This is a polite word for taking what doesn't belong to you and passing it off as yours.

[Guest arnie]

Has anyone read "The White Lie" by Walter Rea? The evidence is pretty overwhelming. The extensiveness of Ellen's copying was incredible. He has documented pages & pages of her copying. Since I was taught that everything she wrote came directly from visions, it was quite devastating. When I started seriously reading the Bible, it was clear she was not always on the same page. As to the reference to the copying of Peter, James and John, ect., I'm sure these guys had a first hand account, since most of them were there when the gospel became apparent. I'll try to find the following, but I know I read it somewhere in Testimonies that women who wore corsets produced wasp waisted offspring (women). I wonder what the wearing of corsets did to the male children of such women? Ellen did publish some things that really made sense,however, but the question is who told her? Does it matter? Well, it certainly does for me. Try writing a college thesis without referencing in the class of any SDA University or any University on that assumption and see where it gets you, yet the Church continues to find justification for Ellen's plaigerism. This is a polite word for taking what doesn't belong to you and passing it off as yours.

[Gustave]

I don't know what a mongrel is but she was correct. Because the Bible says so:

Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. Lev 18:23

‘Cursed is he who lies with any beast.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ Deut 27:21

If you notice in the above Texts both were not to lie with any animal. But the woman if she did it would cause confusion.

We need to think and get clear understanding of the capabilities of man. Man's mind under sin would use all his

Capabilities to create havoc to what he was suppose to take care and keep under check!

And ELOHIM saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5 (KJV)

And YAHWEH said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 11:6 (KJV)

Do you think that dinosaurs just happen to be created and then wiped out? Check out the mules folks it was not made by ELOHIM! All these wonderful inventions with DNA has cause USA to become over eaters, greedy, uncaring and ruthless. Man has taken what ELOHIM has given him to do unthinkable things.

For in it is revealed how ELOHIM makes people righteous in HIS sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” What is revealed is ELOHIM’S Anger from Heaven against all the wickedness and unrighteousness of people who in their wickedness keep suppressing the truth; because what is known about ELOHIM is plain to them, since ELOHIM has made it plain to them. For ever since the Creation of the Universe HIS INVISIBLE QUALITIES— both HIS ETERNAL POWERS and HIS MIGHTINESS — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what ELOHIM has made. Therefore, they have no excuse; because, although they know who ELOHIM is, they do not Glorify the FATHER as ELOHIM or thank HIM. On the contrary, they have become futile in their thinking; and their undiscerning hearts have become darkened. Claiming to be wise, they have become fools! In fact, they have exchanged the GLORY of the IMMORTAL ELOHIM for mere images, like a mortal human being, or like birds, animals or reptiles! This is why ELOHIM has given them up to the vileness of their hearts’ lusts, to the shameful misuse of each other’s bodies. They have exchanged the truth of ELOHIM for falsehood, by worshipping and serving created things, rather than the CREATORS — praised be to the FATHER forever. Amen. This is why ELOHIM has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion. In other words, since they have not considered ELOHIM worth knowing, ELOHIM has given them up to worthless ways of thinking; so that they do improper things. They are filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and vice; stuffed with jealousy, murder, quarrelling, dishonesty and ill-will; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of ELOHIM; they are insolent, arrogant and boastful; they plan evil schemes; they disobey their parents; they are brainless, faithless, heartless and ruthless. They know well enough ELOHIM’S decree that people who do such things deserve to die; yet not only do they keep doing them, but they applaud others who do the same. Rom 1:17-30

If you think that there were no mermaids, centaurs, Cyclops, and other subhuman creatures then you don't believe in the following:

Cloning,

DNA splicing,

A cat and a rabbit mix together known as cabbits,

Plant mutation, mingling or mixing of seeds,

Hormone produce food,

Tobacco and food that make you grave,

Test tube babies.

This is just a few. Wake up Adventist this is real Satan has used man's mind to do the most unbelievable things! That is why he took man's original language and man's mind became subdue for centuries! Man form new languages it took time but he's back and he about to wreck havoc on earth unless YAHSHUA stops him by returning to put an end to sin!

Blessings everyone!

Well Stinsonmarri, I can commend you for your open honesty as that's exactly what Ellen meant....

...Ellen was brutally honest about it as was her friends who offered apology for her.

...More SDA's should just be honest about this subject like you are.

[Kevin H]

Has anyone read "The White Lie" by Walter Rea? The evidence is pretty overwhelming. The extensiveness of Ellen's copying was incredible. He has documented pages & pages of her copying. Since I was taught that everything she wrote came directly from visions, it was quite devastating. When I started seriously reading the Bible, it was clear she was not always on the same page. As to the reference to the copying of Peter, James and John, ect., I'm sure these guys had a first hand account, since most of them were there when the gospel became apparent. I'll try to find the following, but I know I read it somewhere in Testimonies that women who wore corsets produced wasp waisted offspring (women). I wonder what the wearing of corsets did to the male children of such women? Ellen did publish some things that really made sense,however, but the question is who told her? Does it matter? Well, it certainly does for me. Try writing a college thesis without referencing in the class of any SDA University or any University on that assumption and see where it gets you, yet the Church continues to find justification for Ellen's plaigerism. This is a polite word for taking what doesn't belong to you and passing it off as yours.

Yes, same stuff as Canfield, except that Canfield did a much better job and indicated more honesty and much more fair to the facts. Canfield's issue was that he was an extreme fundamentalist, if he lived today with the current evidence, he would have had no reason to leave the church.

[Gerr]

Yes, I've read it. I even went to his house and saw all the books on a long table all laid out on a living room table. It was about the time of the world GC conference in Dallas. I sensed then that something wasn't quite right when he told me the church should cancel the GC session to "deal with this."

That aside, others have looked at the same material since then and found that his criteria for inclusion of what was copied was too loose. If we were to look at a picture, it is inevitable that we would probably use some of the same or similar words. Does this mean that I copied your description or vice versa?

That she used other authors' materials is well established. Even she herself acknowledged it and put in writing which some continue to ignore. They continue with the lie that she claimed everything came from the Lord.

[debbym]

e. white was not an academic trying to pass off other's expressions and thoughts as her own.

she had a goal a desire and a passion to lift Up Christ and the truth about God.

to this educational goal she gathered from within and from any source that which would contribute to her goal, and i believe she succeeded with God's blessing.

lots of materials are freely used when used for educational purposes, and literary use of others materials in her time was a form of honoring other's work.

i do not read e white to learn about her thinking and mind, i read to learn about God.

i listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit.

i hope when people read what i write and speak, they will listen for truth.

[Gustave]

Like others have said, It's not that Ellen feverishly copied from others....

...It's that she did it while DENYING she did it.

...And keeping her pie hole slammed shut when her husband was affirming she didn't copy, in print.

Remember people.

An intentional omission of a relevant fact is a lie!

[Stan]

This has been refuted a lot of times.

This may surprise you, but we do not exist for the purpose of you coming to slam adventism or any other belief system.

[olger]

This has been refuted a lot of times.

This may surprise you, but we do not exist for the purpose of you coming to slam adventism or any other belief system.

Amen, Brother.

`G

[Stan]

and that includes Catholicism, Muslims etc..

no need to slam them either.

[olger]

I can disagree with Catholicism (which I certainly do) while loving James Heckman as a friend. I can disagree with islam (which I certainly do) while loving George Saad from Dayton.

Let us love one another for love is of God.

Let us love truth for truth is of God.

`G

[Kevin H]

Like others have said, It's not that Ellen feverishly copied from others....

...It's that she did it while DENYING she did it.

...And keeping her pie hole slammed shut when her husband was affirming she didn't copy, in print.

Remember people.

An intentional omission of a relevant fact is a lie!

Once again (and Gustave, have you been reading the posts or are you someone who just likes to post misunderstandings and run and not look at the facts.)

The so called denial quotes were given to people who knew that Mrs. White was copying and she knew that they knew she was copying. The issue was not whether or not she was copying but whether or not her message came from the things she was reading and copying or from her visions.

[Kevin H]

Exactly, and other historians, even non-Adventists have confirmed this. When Mrs. White started writing there were two styles, the scholarly writing with footnotes, and the popular where the writers would copy without footnotes.

James and Ellen decided to follow the method of popular writers. There was at least one reason for this and even more likely a second reason as well. First of all, despite the fact that she was a literary genius, who would have probably still have become a writer and today be studied in college literature classes; she did not have confidence in her ability and felt that she was at a loss for words and was looking for phrases that sounded good. However I wish that she did write on her own, because a lot of her copying was paraphrasing and her paraphrase tended to be much better than the original.

A second reason that she has not been so open about, but Mrs. White was in a hurry. Originally it was the soon expectant advent, but also she found her self distracted by issues in the forming of the church and in people asking her questions and the testimonies she was writing. She saw those things as secondary to her major mission of sharing what she saw in the Great Controversy vision. (It is also interesting, in Walter Rea's color coded books -- I have not seen his books, but the White Estate at Andrews had copies of it) when she is getting to the points that she sees as important and dealing with things such as the Great Controversy and hell fire, there is a lot more white and a lot less coloring (although I'm sure we could get that colored some too). Most of the colored part is filler material to keep a running narrative between the important points.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Like others have said, It's not that Ellen feverishly copied from others....

...It's that she did it while DENYING she did it.

...And keeping her pie hole slammed shut when her husband was affirming she didn't copy, in print.

Remember people.

An intentional omission of a relevant fact is a lie!

Once again (and Gustave, have you been reading the posts or are you someone who just likes to post misunderstandings and run and not look at the facts.)

The so called denial quotes were given to people who knew that Mrs. White was copying and she knew that they knew she was copying. The issue was not whether or not she was copying but whether or not her message came from the things she was reading and copying or from her visions.

Why is it then that the link from your Church archives written by your own scholar...

...Rejects what you just affirmed?

[Kevin H]

Would be easier to answer if you told which scholar, however it could well be before the evidence was uncovered.

Now there were ideas about Mrs. White that she was trying to fight as she was old and frail, and the fight was carried on by Willie, A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott and the religion department of Washington Missionary College, especially in the 1919 General Conference. However these people got fired or demoted (or in the case of Willie White, got to keep his office and title but the title was stripped of any power so he was essentially fired but got to keep his office and paycheck)in the 1923 General conference.

The ideas that you are bringing up are what stemmed from 1923.

[Gerr]

ESV | ýRe 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

[Guest arnie]

Hi Gerry, No, Ellen didn't just use similar words, she used paragraph after paragraph and then some. I would like to know more about Rea's honesty you referred too. When you wrote "Others have looked at the same material since then and found that his criteria for inclusion of what was copied was too loose". Would word for word indicate too loose? Have you read "The White Lie"? Maybe you could clarify. Anyway, who is this other author, Cantel?, and where can I read his research? And then again, maybe I would rather not know. After reading Rea's research, I have to say, it was devastating. It made me angry at the church and Ellen for being dishonest, and mostly myself for not seeking truth. Now I stick with the Bible. Pick any book in the itinerary of the New Testament, and the story of salvation is all there. May God Bless

[Guest arnie]

Hi Kevin, Gotcha mixed up with Gerry on the "Canfield" guy. Where can a person find his research? Just sticking with Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and the Apostle,Paul, would probably be the best and the safest. Not that Ellen didn't print some good stuff, I'm just alot more at peace since the Bible became my text book. God Bless