individual responsibility and obamacare

[Dr. Waite]

Ellen White states the following:

"The obligation resting upon us to keep the body in health is an individual responsibility. The Lord requires each one to work out his salvation day by day. He bids us reason from cause to effect, to remember that we are His property, and to unite with Him in keeping the body pure and healthy, and the whole being sanctified to Him.

The youth should be taught that they are not at liberty to do as they please with their lives. God will not hold guiltless those who treat lightly His precious gifts. Men should realize that the greater their endowment of strength, of talent, of means, or of opportunities, the more heavily should the burden of God's work rest upon them, and the more they should do for Him. The youth who are trained to believe that life is a sacred trust will hesitate to plunge into the vortex of dissipation and crime that swallows up so many promising young men of this age." {CT 300.1}

Christ said:

"And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it].

12:16 And they brought [it]. And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him." Mark 12:14-17

Obamacare requires us to purchase health insurance that complies with government regulations or pay a penalty. The government chooses what insurance is best for you and what medical doctor and hospital is best for you. The basis of Obamacare is that healthy individuals help pay for the healthcare of unhealthy individuals.

Does this government requirement interfere with our individual responsibility toward God as described by Ellen White in the above quote? Should we be obligated to help pay for the healthcare for certain individuals who have broken and continue to break the laws of health?

[ClubV12]

I don't have health insurance, haven't for some time. I recently had to go to the E.R., paid the bill myself. It was a whopper. I'm glad I now have the opportunity to purchase health insurance at a reasonable rate, which was impossible before.

The Government is NOT telling me what plan, what doctor, what hospitals I have to use. There are a great many plans available, I'm considering my options. I qualify for a subsidy to help with the cost. It would be irresponsible to NOT sign up, from a Christian stand point as well as common sense. Should I encounter a catastrophic health event, I could loose my house. The insurance isn't only for me, it's also to protect the assetts God has entrusted to me. It's good stewardship.

For those that do not qualify for a subsidy and are faced with higher insurance premiums than you used to pay, thank you for supplementing me. Quit complaining and thank God you can afford insurance. Many can't.

Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers. I don't have a problem with that, it's good biblical counsel.

[Dr. Waite]

I don't have health insurance, haven't for some time. I recently had to go to the E.R., paid the bill myself. It was a whopper. I'm glad I now have the opportunity to purchase health insurance at a reasonable rate, which was impossible before.

The Government is NOT telling me what plan, what doctor, what hospitals I have to use. There are a great many plans available, I'm considering my options. I qualify for a subsidy to help with the cost. It would be irresponsible to NOT sign up, from a Christian stand point as well as common sense. Should I encounter a catastrophic health event, I could loose my house. The insurance isn't only for me, it's also to protect the assetts God has entrusted to me. It's good stewardship.

For those that do not qualify for a subsidy and are faced with higher insurance premiums than you used to pay, thank you for supplementing me. Quit complaining and thank God you can afford insurance. Many can't.

Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers. I don't have a problem with that, it's good biblical counsel.

What do you think about healthcare sharing ministries? I believe these ministries pay for programs like Weimar "NEW START", whereas insurance companies do not.

http://www.healthcaresharing.org/about/

[ClubV12]

Just scanned it briefly, don't know much about it. A couple of questions popped out for me. They provide support and limited help, no gaurentees of medical bills paid. For those in a catastrophic incident, they would still be at substantial risk of loosing everything.

On the other hand,,, an Elder in my Church recently had to go to the ER. He makes just enough to get by, to much to qaulify for State or Fed aid. Like many of us who fall through the cracks. The bill for him was devastating. I paid a large portion of it for him. He didn't want to take the money, I had to put it in his pocket. There were tears, hugs, joy. It's my little "health care sharing plan".

No way I can do that for all the needs in my Church!! One has to choose carefully, be led of the Spirit. The Elder was part of the "worthy poor".

[Gibs]

Many are believing that "Obamacare" will be the straw that breaks the proverbial wagon down, the whole economy of this country is doomed to crash and many are hurting and hurting bad now.

Devvy gives a lowdown on this and others do too. You can check her out at http://devvy.com/

I add this link also, http://drsircus.com/medicine/obamacare-medical-and-financial-rape

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

If you would like to protest the Affordable Care Act by not purchasing insurance, when you have a catastrophic health event, I won't be there to help pay your bill. As I have been in the past for people. Those who decided to protest by not buying insurance, should be allowed to experience the full impact of the fruits of their labor.

Medical bills that will wipe them out financially. Given an opportunity to purchase insurance and not doing that: IS the sin of presumption that God will care of you. It's faith you say? I suggest it is presumption. Please don't ask the Church to pray for you to save your house or pay your bills when you have neglected to do your part.

Will this lead to economic collapse of the country? Quite possible, if not this, it will be something else. Collapse is inevitable, National ruin is assured. You can't stop it, but we should do our part to prevent it. But denying yourself affordable insurance and then "begging" your friends and fellow Church members for help is taking advantage of the community. It's irresponsible.

If your premiums for insurance go up dramatically and your concerned you will not be able to afford insurance, welcome to the club. It's about time you got a chance to understand what life is like for millions of Americans living without insurance experience.

Don't want to pay the penalty for not getting insurance? Fine, thumb your nose at the government, hide your income, cheat on your taxes, rob Ceaser. Your call... Christian. Oh, and cancel your auto insurance, fire insurance and any other insurance you have. Because ALL of it is regulated by "big brother" in some way, so just blow it off. You might consider giving up your drivers license and credit cards as well. Find a cave, in the mountains, good luck with all that.

[Gibs]

I have medicare and insurance to help. But both are very low on keeping you from high bills as the bill for the insurance is high each month and the medicare bill is high each month.

The medical big pharma profession is wiping me out more and more all the time and escalation is fast speeding up.

The big pharma medical profession has put out all the clinics and true doctors that really could help people to healing and health again. And not cost you an arm or leg so to speak.

The government, big pharma and insurance companies are wiping out the middle class down to the needy class!

You can't tax the rich, they just pass that cost down to the poor and they pay it and what is put on them too!

We are realizing of course that we are living in the wonderful, wonderful world of usurper,Satan.

Disney land makes that "the wonderful, wonderful world of oz." whoever oz is.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

O-Care is a huge tax on the American back at a time when the country could least afford it.

But more seriously, it is a method of appropriating a lot of control to the state. Not good. Remember I said it.

g

[ClubV12]

It will get worse in every way before it gets better. Meanwhile, I'm signing up, resistance is futile... :)

[phkrause]

Good for you Club. I have not heard of one person here on this forum that has had there insurance taken away or as you have signed up for HC. Have you had any problems?? I've gone through the websites to see how difficult it is, well is so easy its hilarious what I've read about it.

[Johann]

In some countries every citizen has medical insurance paid for by the national taxes, just like your police and highways. That way all are treated alike.

[phkrause]

I personally would have no problem with that.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

two of my cousins received cancellation notices from their insurance companies... both are self-employed -- one is an attorney and the other is a security consultant..

[ClubV12]

It's what is called a "single payer system", national health care. I'd be OK with that myself. Look I just want SOMETHING for catastrophic protection so I don't have to be a burden to society in a worse case scenario. Something I can afford to get me by until I can qualify for Medicare in a few years.

Big brother forced me to "submit" by clicking that button after I filled out the forms online. So, cowering in fear some guys might show up in black suits if I didn't cooperate, I felt compelled to click "submit". It was awful, the screen said "accepted" and I'm SURE NSA is now tracking me. The horror of it all,,,

Pam, I do appreciate your relatives paying more for their premiums so I can afford to get insurance too.

[phkrause]

Pam I know a whole bunch of people that got canceled, and that was back in the early 70s. So this is nothing new. Its been happening for many years. All I'm asking is that those that are on this forum to let us know if they have been canceled. Like I've mentioned, I went on line to see how hard or screwed up it was gonna be and found it very easy. All I've seen is threads talking about how bad this is, but yet not one other person has mentioned if they've been canceled, only that friends and family have.

[ClubV12]

Now let me be clear about what I AM doing and what I am NOT doing.

I am NOT relying on health care insurance. Like the fire insurance on my house. I hope I never have to use it, but I like the peace of mind knowing I have it, just in case.

I'm exercising regularly, I'm eating right, I moved to the country to reduce stress and enhance my spiritual connection. An added benefit is I'm changing my diet to more fruits and vegetables for a simple reason. HOW does one actually survive if you had to grow your own food? Well, you better get used to eating vegetables! How to store them, prepare them in a reasonable good to eat way. Learn how much, or how little, food you really need. What IF you actually had to COUNT on that garden for the bulk of your food?

So I started going to the market and buying foods I could actually grow at my country place. And I'm learning to prepare them and enjoy them. Thats a big step for me, I never cooked before. I ate virtually every meal in a restaurant. For years I practically lived in hotels/motels because I traveled extensively for my work.

A garden? How in the world does THAT work and what kind of food is there? What do you with this food if you don't have a gourmet chef on the payroll? I'm learning,,,

I'm out of debt. I drive a couple of older cars with engines and running gear I rebuilt myself. I don't need a new car or a flashy ride. I'm downsizing everywhere. No TV, wood stove, simple lifestyle, cut costs to the bone. AND I'm happier than I ever was with all that "nice stuff" I had to worry about, move, care for, store, keep clean. Keep it simple, you'll like it.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I started this type gardening many years ago and it is the way to go. I abandoned it for awhile but since I'm so old I need it easier.

The first couple yrs. you need to mix some nitrogen in if you use ground up wood chips, but if you do it with green grass and have a catcher and keep it covered with that you don't.

Here is how to go about it. http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/11883/Back-to-Eden Hope you can find a good source of cover.

I do have a good place to get almost decomposed chips and I run them through a shredder to have a finer cover, I'll get a large crop of strawberries this spring, things do super!

Blessings are in store for gardeners!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Johann]

In some countries every citizen has medical insurance paid for by the national taxes, just like your police and highways. That way all are treated alike.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pam I know a whole bunch of people that got canceled, and that was back in the early 70s. So this is nothing new. Its been happening for many years. All I'm asking is that those that are on this forum to let us know if they have been canceled. Like I've mentioned, I went on line to see how hard or screwed up it was gonna be and found it very easy. All I've seen is threads talking about how bad this is, but yet not one other person has mentioned if they've been canceled, only that friends and family have.

sorry, I didn't understand that only members of C/A qualified for interest if their insurance got cancelled due to obamacare ramifications..

[Gibs]

Yes, people losing their health insurance is not a big thing, if you think not you better read this!

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/07/207909/analysis-tens-of-millions-could.html

Sure sounds very bad to me!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I lost my health insurance, but rejoice with me, for I have found a way to get it back!

[Gibs]

Glad for you ClubV12, I didn't lose mine yet but the cost doubles starting 2014.

Many will no doubt lose it for lack of funds as already for many now the out pay is greater than their income.

I am in that boat, the only thing keeping us afloat is the little nest egg we got laid up.

The economy is doomed to crash and will when the big money banksters decide not to keep it going rampant at warp speed in the red.

The great depression will be minor in comparison.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[ClubV12]

The Federal subsidy that allows me to get insurance at an affordable rate, also allows a HUGE number of people to get insurance totally FREE. Many of the first to sign up were those who are currently on food stamps. They were "fast tracked" by the State. Many of those won't be paying a cent, they will get health insurance completely free. Others, like myself, who don't qualify for food stamps, will have to wait a little longer to be accepted into a plan. I will have to pay some amount based on my income. Once your income reaches a certain level, you have to pay 100% of the premium.

Since SO many new people will be now be signing up and receiving completely free health insurance, or greatly reduced cost, the questions about WHO is going to pay for THAT are certainly valid! Questions about is this going to bankrupt the Nation are certainly valid.

Questions about can you just turn your back on the poor and leave them without insurance at all are also valid! Questions about why should I have to loose my house if I get sick are valid! Questions about making the rich pay for the poor are valid!

I don't know the answers to these questions and we are told (SOP) the politicians will wrestle for solutions in vain. They won't know the answers either! Why? Because as a nation we have drifted so far from the biblical plan for a nation, failure is imminent. History shows that happening time after time. We ARE going down and NO ONE can stop it.

[Gibs]

For sure there is no balm in sight among men to heal the great problem this country and the world are in.

The illegals also are putting a huge burden on the already overloaded system to breaking down.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Club,

You're referring to Medicaid, and it is second class health care. A lot of doctors won't take Medicaid patients, and neither do a lot of hospitals.

Obamacare is going to make this worse as the millions of new Medicaid patients will be competing for an ever smaller group of doctors. Why? Because Medicaid doesn't pay the doctors or hospitals enough to cover their costs, and Obamacare reduces payments to doctors and hospitals even more. Thus fewer and fewer doctors and hospitals are going to accept Medicaid patients.

God is a God of liberty, and Obamacare is taking liberty away from US citizens. It's about increasing the government's control of everyone and everything in this country. It's central planning, the very root of socialism and communism, and central planning never works efficiently and limits the rights and freedoms of everyone it affects.

Obamacare is going to collapse from its own weight. It cannot support itself as it is so poorly designed and implemented that it can't survive without blowing up the deficit. Right now 80% or so of everyone that has signed up has signed up for Medicaid, and these people will contribute nothing but costs to the program. This is why Obama has continuously lied about this for the last 3 years telling people they could keep their current insurance policies, and why he unilaterally, and illegally, delayed the employer mandate. He delayed it because of political reasons for when the employer mandate kicks in 2 out of every 3 people who get health insurance through their employers, which is how the vast majority of people with health insurance get it, will lose their policies. He knows that will create a lot of anger after he's lied repeatedly saying it wouldn't happen and cost the Democrats the coming elections.

I'm supposed to be someone who is to benefit from this law, but I see only harm in it. I see no good in it whatsoever. The way I see things I would have to be extremely selfish to desire to benefit from the impoverishing of the entire middle class in the US. Middle class families are seeing their premiums and deductibles go through the roof. Where they once paid $400-500 a month with a $1000 deductible they are now seeing premiums of $1500 a month and $12,000-18,000 a year in deductibles. That means a family with an income of $60,000 a year is going to see medical costs in excess $20,000 a year before they even begin to see their insurance pay a dime. Health care costs are now going to bankrupt many, many people who before would have gotten by just fine with their existing policies that Obamacare has mandated must be changed.

How in the world can anyone joyfully participate in this? How can anyone say I'm really glad someone else is being harmed for my benefit? I see that as nothing but pure selfishness. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Oh, and your mocking of the NSA thing, is well, odd to say the least. The Obamacare website has never had any security work done on it. That means everyone's private information, their financial, medical, and psychological records is wide open to anyone unethical enough to want to take it. Identity theft is going to go through the roof. As you probably haven't heard, or ignored if you did, the Obamacare website has already been hacked. Sebelius revealed that in her first testimony before Congress.

And, the company that took 2/3 of a billion dollars to build this mess didn't take even the most basic security precautions during the time they worked on the site. In a secure environment, which the servers and development network of a site holding the personal information of 300 million people should most certainly be, they didn't even follow the most basic of security policies. They allowed anyone who wanted to to bring in personal thumb drives, external hard drives, data cds, data dvds, etc.... That means none of the site is to be trusted. Who knows how many backdoors were planted in that site during development? It's never even been tested and the lax security evironment it was created in is very close to a guarantee they are there.

Obamacare also steals from the senior citizens, the ones least likely to be able to afford any loss. How? Obama took 3/4 of a trillion dollars out of Medicare to help pay for Obamacare. And you're rejoicing in this....