Need For Men's Ministries?

[darlene]

This past weekend our Conference had it's first Men's Ministries Retreat. Sixty men came and their enthusiasm and excitement was very evident. The speaker was Pastor Randy Skeete from Michigan. He is a very powerful speaker who has a phenominal memory and quotes chapters in his presentation. If you haven't heard him, you need too.

What is your opinion about Men's Ministries? Do you think it is needed? Do you think men will come to such an event? If you are a man, would you attend?

[Dr. Shane]

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What is your opinion about Men's Ministries?

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We have one here at C/A. I support it.

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Do you think it is needed?

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Yes

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Do you think men will come to such an event?

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I think most will not. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Few of the male members here participate in our men's forum.

[there buster]

Men's ministries are desperately needed. The membership of the church is about 70% female. As Donald Joy has written, most of our churches have become so feminized that men no longer feel welcome.

On the other hand, most men's retreats are simply women's retreats for men. That's why so few men participate.

I've given a couple of men's retreats. I mentioned to the organizer of a recent one that I gave, that I don't usually go to men's retreats, and told him the above. When the men's retreat was over, he said, "I see what you mean. This was something special." The response was overwhelming. But the organizer scheduled a typical speaker for the next year's retreat, and things went downhill again.

So it's a conundrum. We need men's ministries, but few know how to conduct them.

[Amelia]

Ed, could you give us an example of how a mens retreat should be conducted?

[cricket]

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On the other hand, most men's retreats are simply women's retreats for men. That's why so few men participate.

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Ed! I love this last line. I think women's retreats should be something different as well: I find them so incredibly boring! I wish we'd do something more fun like camping, or hiking or....or, anything!!

I have a feeling that once you get the Men's Ministries retreats to where they should be--it'll be a place I'd rather be!

Chrys

[Amelia]

Sometimes the church doesnt know the difference between a conference and a retreat. A retreat should be renewing in the body and spirit. And that doesnt always come with day in and hour out study.

[there buster]

The main thing is the content.

The tendency is to have a speaker in who tells the men they aren't living up to their responsibilities as men. This is followed by either a lecture on the spiritual disciplines--fasting, prayer, study, etc--or lectures on what men should or shouldn't be doing.

At the risk of offending the ladies here, this is a lot like the way a wife nags her husband, or a mother her son.

Please note, I'm not talking about every woman, nor is she necessarily incorrect in her general assessment. In my experience, the vast majority of Christian women do not think their husband is the spiritual leader he should be. And, with the best of intentions, she then "encourages" him to be what she wants.

She's probably correct in her assessment, that he is not the spiritual leader he should be. But even when the men try to follow their wives' prescriptions for improvement, they rarely meet or satisfy their wives' expectations.

There are two primary reasons for that.

Before I go on to the next step, I'll stop here. If others think this reasoning is way off base, I need to know it before continuing.

[Bravus]

Nope, I think you're spot on.

[darlene]

It's good to hear all of your comments, and Ed, I do appreciate your input since you have experience in Men's Retreats.

Our reteat was at our youth camp where the men had to bunk in cabins and on their evaluation forms a large majority said they really liked it in this rustic setting and want to have it there again next year. (There were two men who wouldn't stay there so stayed in our lodge which had individual washrooms in each room and that's okay, too.)

Yes, it was kind of a women's retreat in that I had done some decorations, etc. They included bails of hay, corn stalks, saddles, model horses, fall flowers, etc. but seveal men said they really liked it. So I guess it wasn't overdone.

The speaker did talk about the spiritual role of men as head of their family. He took all his information from the Bible and the men were in awe of his messages and his ability to quote scripture. Can you believe he has memorized the whole book of Genesis and many other parts of the Bible? What a powerful speaker!

One of our pastors is our Volunteer Men's Ministries Coordinator and it comes under my Family Ministries Department. That is how I am involved. Any suggestions or opinions you can give to us are appreciated.

[there buster]

Decorations aren't a problem. Men can be quite artistic.

One time, some years ago, when my wife was primary leader at a local church, the quarter's theme was "detective so-and-so," but like many of the lesson helps and themse written primarily by women, it was still quite feminine.

My wife asked me to help her alter it to be more boy-friendly. Well, we changed it to "Behind Enemy Lines" (based on a quote from C.S. Lewis) and decorated the room with camouflage fabric, stuff from army surplue. The boys came in wide-eyed, and felt a new level of interest.

The real issue is the content. More and more research indicates that being a man is a learned skill, and it must be learned from a man. No offense, but women don't know how.

And that's the fly in the retreat ointment. A feminized dialogue in the church doesn't reach men's real needs. To be painfully blunt, much of our male leadership is feminized, that is, operates as women rather than men. This is at least partly due to the overwhelming majority of women members.

They vote for leaders they feel comfortable with. And those are often the less masculine leaders. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about effeminacy at all. Often they look quite virile. It's in the relationships that they tend to act like women.

Of course, there are numerous exceptions. This is not a blanket statement. But in general, leadership in the NA church tends more toward the feminine style of relationships.

That doesn't mean that women are happy with their leadership. Not at all. Women want real men as leaders. At the same time, male leadership frightens them a little--or a lot.

That's why when men become the leaders women think they want, the women aren't happy with them. Lots and lots of men in the church--and more who have left--have grown weary of trying to please their wives when it comes to spiritual things.

And they should stop trying to follow their wives inclinations and recommendations, and start leading.

When men do this, most women and many men will still not like what they do, may even condemn them. So men won't get the "liking" that they think they want. What they get is admiration and respect.

That's what men want, and what women want but don't know it, and don't know how to produce it.

We don't want simpering pleasers we always agree with, we want leaders we can admire.

C.S. Lewis talks about the Victorian pictures of angels with feathery wings. He says they always look like they're about to say "There, there." Real angels always have to begin with "Fear not."

That's what we all, men and women, want in our men. Not feathery, "there, there" warm blankies, but solid, perhaps sometimes slightly frightening heroes. That these strong, forceful figures can be gentle with women and children, can write and recite poetry, makes their spiritual ruggedness all the more striking. But there's nothing feminine about them.

And that's the title for my men's retreat: "A Call for Heroes."

[Jeannieb43]

Good job. More, please.

[there buster]

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Can I please use what you wrote in my next newsletter?

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Certainly. Since I do have a book proposal I'm preparing on this topic, I'd appreciate it if you'd mention me as the source. I'd also be glad to write something directly for your newsletter (no charge). This is a passion of mine, but it's hard to get our publishers to look at it, because women buy most of the books.

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we need a Men's Ministry started but there has been such a "blah" attitude to it I'd all but given up on this.

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I should warn you. The Holy Spirit has a way of shaking things up. Combine that with natural (God-given) male aggression, and that can really shake things up.

It's much like one of my favorite quotes from the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis.

Lucie, about a 9YO girl, having been transported to Narnia, keeps hearing about the great Lion that is the rightful fuler (and clear symbol of Christ). Eventually, she asks about Aslan, "Is he safe?" To which the reply is. "Of course not. Who told you such a thing. He's not safe, but he's good."

That's an accurate picture of real Christian men. They're not safe, but they're good.

Did you ever notice that the three disciples closest to Christ were three of the least safe? Peter is renowned for getting into trouble, and Jesus gave him the nickname "Rocky." James and John thought fire from heaven would be a good thing for unresponsive villages, and Jesus gave them a nickname, too. He called them "Sons of thunder." Bit of a sly joke, don't you think?

So be forewarned. Let the Spirit ignite real leadership in your men, and your family, your church, and your community will never be the same again.

[darlene]

Guess what, Ed, our retreat theme was "A Call for Heroes." <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Actually, Greg has been the Men's Ministries Director in two other conferences before and I think he used this theme previously. (perhaps got it from you?) The only reason I am involved is that we haven't had a Men's Ministry before and when I heard that Greg had already worked with it I jumped at the chance and asked him to be the coordinator under my Family Ministries Department. Hopefully it will be so successful that the conference will make it a department on its own. But since I thought it was something that was needed I have it under Family Ministries. We took care of the advertising, registration, decoration a few other things. The rest was done by men and I only sat in one meeting for about 10 minutes because I wanted to see what the speaker was like.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let it be known that the Greg mentioned above, is not me.

[there buster]

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(perhaps got it from you?) The only reason I am involved is that we haven't had a Men's Ministry before and when I heard that Greg had already worked with it I jumped at the chance and asked him to be the coordinator under my Family Ministries Department

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I doubt he got if from me. We both probably came up with it independently.

I meant no implied criticism of your involvement whatsoever. There are women who catch the vision. But, humans being who and what we are, women can't tell men about it very well, anymore than men can tell women how to be women.

[cricket]

I was thinking...what a cool way to "decorate" the church for a Sabbath or two (or three, or...). Not only do boys in Sabbath school classes need this sort of affirmation, but the men in our churches need it as well!

[darlene]

Yes, Greg, I should have been more clear. It is Pastor Greg Wellman that I was referring to. Sorry.

[Amelia]

Awesome Ed, thank you for responding. I think we would all like it if you continued to add to this thread. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" />

[there buster]

I'm gratified by the response. Not sure where you want me to go with it.

I base my retreat presentations (and the book proposal) on one of the greatest quotations about men and character by any writer.

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The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.

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While it is politically correct to insert "men and women," I'm increasingly convinced that the particular characteristics described are decidedly masculine.

This is not to say that women cannot be sound of character, but that the ways they express it tend to be a little different.

So what I do for the men's retreat is first to examine the clauses in turn.

The greates want of the world is the want of men.

I examine the psychological differences between men and women, and indicate that these differences are NOT a result of the fall, but inherent in the functions and purposes of each. Again, this may offend some, but I see it as essential.

Women (and here I rush in, leaving wise men and angels behind) tend to favor routine, security, safety.

I believe this is biologically based. A woman sees regularity in her biology as literally an indication of well-being. I believe that fundamental fact shapes a woman's outlook. Also, during the long months of child-bearing and caring for utterly dependent children, she needs safety and routine.

Men, on the other hand, like adventure, challenge, and striving. Look at men's hobbies and avocations. Men like football and soccer and rugby and lacrosse--and all manner of rough and tumble.

An old movie cliche shows two men--whether Robin Hood and Little John, or Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie--get into a knock down, drag out fight. Then, when it's over, shake hands and become the best of friends, respecting each other's prowess.

It's hard to imagine two women engaging in the sorts of combat women prefer, and ending up lifelong friends afterword.

Mind you, I'm not claiming men or women are more virtuous, only that they are quite different.

So I talk about men and women, why they're different, and why they need each other.

In today's climate, testosterone and aggression are seen as "anti-social"--and surely they can be. But that's the key to being truly manly.

Men's and women's brains are also organized differently--this due largely to testosterone.

During gestation, a boy baby's brain undergoes a testosterone bath in the womb. This causes the left hemisphere (usually) of the brain to actually shrink slightly. This holds back his development, and causes the very discreet right-brain left-brain function of most males.

This makes men more (sorry, ladies) linear, logical in their thinking.IF--and it's a big if--IF they're educated probperly, this will help them greatly.

You see, testosterone makes men more aggressive, more prone to take risks. Well, it also prepares their brains to think carefully, to calculate those risks.

In general, women don't like risks. If they train boys without a male inflluence, they usually get one or the other. Boys who are aggressive, high-risk individuals, and those who think, think, think, but never act.

We need men to take risks. But we need them to be selective about the risks they take. That's part of what that "greatest want" is. Men who will risk everything when called upon. And risk little when it is unwise to risk.

gotta go for now.

[Dr. Shane]

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I think women's retreats should be something different as well: I find them so incredibly boring!

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I love women's retreats. Of course I can just watch them on TV. Mostly I just find myself saying to my wife "listen to that" "listen to that" "did you hear that?" <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Amelia]

Tossing this question out to everyone but hope Ed will have a response too.

Should the church have a role in the rearing of our children? (ie it takes a village) Or would that be something a parent would dislike? What about children of single parents? What can the church do to set a model for little girls being raised by a father and little boys by a mother? I see this as something the mens and womens ministires could take a role in. Plus, how do we speak to the kids of 200????? of traditional roles vs non traditional roles? When did growing up to be a wife and mother become something to be scoffed at?

[Dr. Shane]

I think the church should have parenting classes or seminars on a regular basis.

[Taylor]

Ed, you are so RIGHT ON on this topic! I have thought these kinds of things many many times!

BTW I would be curious to know if you have read John Eldridge's book "Wild at Heart" on the passions and make-up of a man? If so, what did you think?

[darlene]

Our Men's Ministries presented the workshop "Wild at Heart" at our camp meeting this summer. There were over 80 men there. One man though didn't like the idea of taking up riffles and hunting. I think he missed the point of the program. This program received a very good response. In fact there was one more program than there was days and the men asked to meet during Sabbath supper to see it. So, it had to have been good! <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[there buster]

Since familly life was my field in grad school, I have probably too many things to say about this.

I believe the Elijah message for our time is Micah 4:6 "Turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the eharts of the children to the fathers."

This is, I believe THE testing truth of our time.

I don't believe "it takes a village." That doesn't mean the community doesn't have a role in supporting the family. But welfare policies demonstrate that "those raised by the village eventually raze the village."

The reason I left teaching in SDA schools and into homeschoolling is that I learned that I couldn't help the children unless I could help the family.

I vividly remember one family. The pastor and his wife (who taught in the school where I was principal) liked to point to one or two children whom they had "saved from their family." The family was indeed dysfunctional and very secular. I was considered quite obnoxious because I disagreed.

Nearly thirty years later, I met that young girl at re:Church in New York City. Since I had gone pretty gray by then, she said she recognized me by my laugh. She asked me, "What did you think about my situation?" I told her, and she said, "I knew you felt that way. I didn't understand at the time. You were the only one who recognized that they had simply taught me to disrespect my parents. It took me many years to work through the damage that caused me."

I better stop here. Let's just say that although the church could do much to help parents, in fact, most churches just aren't interested.

For years I attended a church that had been built without room for the junior sabbath school class. The same church had a foyer 2/3 the size of the sanctuary. When it was suggested that we might partition off part of that foyer and make room for the juniors, it was rejected. Then someone (not me), made a motion that, even if there was never room for the juniors, nothing would be done to the foyer. It passed with a big majority. As I have worked with young people, I find again and again, the older generations just don't care.

Bob Logan, at the SEEDS '96 summit said, "Most churches should have this on their signs: GO TO HELL. WE DON'T CARE."

My experience is that is the case in the vast majority of congregations and conferences in NA. If it means discomfort for the parents and grandparents, we'd rather just let the kids (continue to) leave the church for good.