Need For Men's Ministries?

[there buster]

Love "Wild at Heart." My approach is just a little different. More "Adventist friendly." Doesn't require hunting, for example. Not that I object. I'm just trying to reach the SDA audience.

[WayneV]

Good Thread Y'all! Ed, I really appreciate your input.

I have led "Wild At Heart" small group at my small interdenominational church. The original six guys enjoyed it so much, and were able to articulate the underlying theme so well, that when we did a repeat of the material, our group was twice as large! And, the six new men were all unchurched!

Our "band of brothers" continues to impact our families and community today.

One thing that I would like to mention is that most men's groups/retreats/conferences are too shallow. The leader will tell those in attendance that their discussions will allow them to really open themselves up to one another and depend on one another for support and enrichment. Then the leader, in order to get things going, will usually volunteer some revealing information. There are probably men in the group who are struggling with real issues such as adultery, drugs and such. And, the leader reveals that he is struggling with thievery. The struggling guys start to think, "Alright! Finally, someone I can relate to!" But then the leader continues his revelation by admitting that he has used the church copier to make personal copies, or some other ridiculously mundane infraction. All of a sudden, those struggling guys' minds are going berserk trying to get back to the surface and think of some equally mundane sin to "share."

I think that to really have an impact, the leaders need to be men who have experienced, and are willing to admit to, real struggles.

On the other hand, I don't see this happening in very many "socially conservative" churches (of which SDA is one) for the leaders' fear of condemnation/ostracizing/shunning from the saints of the "church."

That's my :2cents:

[there buster]

Quote:

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The greatest want of the world is the want of men--

men who will not be bought or sold,

---

After the introductory session, where I talk about the innate differences between men and women, I then take up the next clause:

Men who will not be bought or sold.

What do we call people who are bought and sold?

We call them slaves.

Do you know the Latin word for slave?

ADDICT!

So then I discuss how men who sublimate their God-given aggression, who don't express it in healthy ways, turn to addiction.

Then I tell my story. I was raised in an SDA family. I was always told my male aggression was "un-Christian." "Christians don't get angry," was the continual message.

My parents grew up in the Great Depression. So another message they gave me was, "Money spent for pleasure is bad stewardship. The only exception is money spent for food, because we need food to survive." From the Depression background, quite understandable.

Naturally a picky eater, I was condemned for that, and praised when I would "clean my plate."

So my primary addiction, the sick re-channeling of my God given male aggression, is to food. I'm overweight, because, without realizing it, my parents taught me to eat my anger.

No, I'm not blaming them. I'm not excusing myself. But it's a lot harder to get rid of weight--especially after 40, when I figured this all out--than it is to establish a healthy relationship with food in the first place.

And yes, that revelation opens me to criticism. I hear it sometimes when I go to speak. "Who is he to talk about Christian life, when he's overweight?"

To which I generally reply, "I'm fortunate, because my addiction makes itself visible, so I can be humbled and try to deal with it. But that means others can see it, too. On the other hand, some people are fortunate that their addictions are hidden from public view. Perhaps you're one of those."

We're all slaves, all addicts to something and to some degree. The kind of men the world wants are not perfect men, without faults, but men who, when the crisis comes, refuse to allow their weaknesses to rule their actions. To become men like that, we have to first recognize how we are "bought and sold," and then turn to Christ AND do everything we can to overcome them.

Not facing them is where the problem arises. That's where the spiritual addictions come in. ANd they are far more damaging, even, than the terrible effects of alcoholism, drug abuse, and gambling. Fear not those who can kill the body; those (addictions) which directly attack the soul are far more dangerous.

[Gail]

So good to see you on again, Wayne! Please visit us more often!

How is Alyssa doing, and the little tyke?

[Bravus]

I read 'Wild At Heart' and enjoyed it generally, but I think John Eldredge fell into an error that Ed D has avoided: identifying the trappings of masculinity in a particular place and time as the eternal characteristics of masculinity. I agree that a man's heart is wild and powerful, but reducing that to hiking and camping and hunting is simplistic. (And Eldredge doesn't entirely do that either, but he doesn't make the distinction sufficiently clear.)

I'm a very gentle, nurturing guy, and so is my father. But part of what allows us to be like that without being feminine is that we're also both big, strong guys physically, and both very secure in who we are. There's a masculinity and leadership there, but it's not loud, or sometimes even all that visible except to the discerning.

I think Ed is also dead right about the fact that people don't necessarily want from men what they need from men, and that integrity is central. I don't think (and Ed didn't say this but others do) that being admired as a father also requires being somehow distant from the children: my girls love and admire and respect me, and I'm very close to them.

I also think Ed is dead right (brother, this may be a historic occassion of agreement between us!) about the crucial role of the family. A community has some value, but family is central. (It's a pity extended family doesn't have a greater role these days.) And the worst possible outcome is when being a member of the community takes away time and energy from the family. We're involved with our church, but immersed in our family - and are sometimes made to feel a little guilty by others for not being immersed in church stuff, but there are no regrets and no apologies here.

The church needs to have a much greater role in educating and supporting parents and families, and we've tried to do some of that using the 'Growing Kids God's Way' materials from Gary Ezzo. Lots still to do.

[aldona]

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Shane said:

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I think women's retreats should be something different as well: I find them so incredibly boring!

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I love women's retreats. Of course I can just watch them on TV. Mostly I just find myself saying to my wife "listen to that" "listen to that" "did you hear that?" <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Last time there was a women's retreat held here I didn't go. It would have meant rushing there on Friday night straight from work, staying all weekend and not seeing my family until Sunday night. Not to mention the church bulletin and the housework not getting done, and the church having to find someone else to play music instead of me. To me, that's no way to "retreat". It's much more relaxing just to come home and spend time with my family.

I heard from some ladies who attended that it was enjoyable. Mostly consisted of inspirational talks by female preachers, authors and missionaries, seminars on how to witness and evangelize more effectively (all good stuff, but nothing we can't hear at church or on Adventist TV anyway), as well as beauty therapy and massage sessions (nope, sorry, not my thing...waste of time and money).

The fact that I'm an introvert doesn't help...it means that I actually get more stressed having to deal with large numbers of people than I would alone.

Now, a cabin in the woods for a few days with just me, my Bible and a few good classical music CD's...that's what I call a retreat. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

aldona

[Paula]

Ed,

There is a book that you would absolutely LOVE... it is callled

"Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul"

by John Eldredge

In it he talks extensevely about the need to allow men to be men.. and how we have turned the church into a place for women, and how that has kept men from their Godly calling... It is an awesome book, and it has helped me alot to better accept my husband, and to refrain from efeminating my sons too much.. hehehehe

I always tell everyone I know to read it... it's AWESOME!

[Paula]

Here is a review and exerpt:

God designed men to be dangerous, says John Eldredge. Simply look at the dreams and desires written in the heart of every boy: To be a hero, to be a warrior, to live a life of adventure and risk. Sadly, most men abandon those dreams and desires-aided by a Christianity that feels like nothing more than pressure to be a "nice guy." It is no wonder that many men avoid church, and those who go are often passive and bored to death. In this provocative book, Eldredge gives women a look inside the true heart of a man and gives men permission to be what God designed them to be-dangerous, passionate, alive, and free.

[bevin]

In general I agree with the material Ed is presenting here. That many Christian leader's and male role models are increasingly bland and lacking in get-the-job-done directness.

It starts with a very fundamental disease. An inability to admit that the past leadership has made severe errors and there are major problems that need to be fixed.

Look at the problems that the SDA church denies are serious...

(a) The 1844 doctrine is unsupported by scripture

( The recent creationion doctrine is unsupported by science

© The SOP myth is unsupported by history

(d) The health message is not in sync with the real issues of the times

The SDA church sacks anyone who is brave enough to stand up and say "the emperors have no clothes".

Mostly the people left in the SDA denomination are people who can tolerate such stuff and don't like to make a fuss. In short, the kind of men that you are looking for here simply do not fit into the SDA church.

We leave, not from mere boredom (which would be bad enough) but from extreme frustration that we can see what is wrong, but can't do anything about it.

/Bevin

[there buster]

A very interesting demonstration.

In church circles that argument takes the form of:

"Being truly spiritual means agreeing with with me on doctrinal matters."

Bevin has cleverly changed that to :

"Being truly masculine means agreeing with with me on doctrinal matters."

Whether or not the conclusions Bevin declares as fact are correct, they would be thrown into doubt because his main point is fallacious.

Any man who honestly disagrees with those points would hardly become more masculine by pretending to agree.

But the error is a logical one, unrelated to masculinity or feminity, and thus off topic.

[Jeannieb43]

Bravus, please tell us more about your "Growing Kids God's Way" seminars using materials by Gary Ezzo.

I'll start a separate thread about that here in Townhall so we don't divert this men's retreat topic.

I'm interested in all comments about the Ezzo program.