Death Shall Flee From Them

[Samie]

We SDA's accept the exposition of Josiah Litch, that the fall of Ottoman Empire is the fulfillment of the 6th Trumpet and that this occurred on August 11, 1840, 391 years and 15 days after the fulfillment of the fifth trumpet. The fifth trumpet therefore ended somewhere in 1840 minus 391 or around 1449 AD.

Can anybody show how the following Biblical specification of prophecy was fulfilled?

Quote:

Revelation 9:5-6 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Any historical record attesting that in the 150 years before 1449 nobody died?

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

It has not been proved it has happened yet and I am sure that it cannot be. If you notice ,

Re 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

the hurt only hits the men which have NOT the seal of God in there foreheads, minds, hearts.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

It has not been proved it has happened yet and I am sure that it cannot be. ...

So then, Josiah Litch's exposition was altogether inaccurate?

[Gibs]

We all make mistakes, it isn't the first time a prophecy is presented before it's time.

The time is now and it cannot be far away.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

We all make mistakes, it isn't the first time a prophecy is presented before it's time.

...

If Josiah Litch's exposition was a mistake, do you think Sister White believed in it based on how she wrote about it?

[Gibs]

No, not after this statement of 1888,

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

It' clear that she saw them in the future from that statement.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

No, not after this statement of 1888,

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

It' clear that she saw them in the future from that statement.

...

Sister White endorsed Josiah Litch's exposition both in the 1888 and 1911 editions of the Great Controversy. Why do you think the 1911 edition of the GC did not supersede her 1888 statement you quoted above?

[Gibs]

Because the preponderance of scripture goes with the clearest statement she could ever make and the best of the great controversies was the first one and not the 1888 and 1911.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

It has not been proved it has happened yet and I am sure that it cannot be. ...

So then, Josiah Litch's exposition was altogether inaccurate?

[Gibs]

I done quit some time ago discussing the atonement with you Samie. I don't like what that idea fosters with many. You won't egg me into any response so don't waste your time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

I done quit some time ago discussing the atonement with you Samie. I don't like what that idea fosters with many. You won't egg me into any response so don't waste your time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It's not egging you on the Atonement issue. Just reminding you of the inconsistency of your stance.

And to warn a brother to overcome the evil of not being inconsistent is for me not waste of time, especially if the brother I warn is very vocal about overcoming.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gibs]

My stance is not inconsistent, it's just that you cannot see it and that is fine with me.

[Samie]

Denial does not make one an overcomer... Makes me wonder how that could be fine with you, brother.

[ClubV12]

Weird, two guys who routinely ingnore selective comments/statements by Ellen White that don't fit their private interpretation of doctrine, their NON Adventist doctrine, now arguing over whether a specific comment is or isn't inspired! The irony!

"We", Samie, or Gibs for that matter. Nothing "we" about it, Adventists hold to entirely different views and doctrines than either one of you two guys.

"Denial", fitting term in both cases.

[Gibs]

ClubV12 likes to argue that point, I will leave you to him Samie. I got too much on my hands at present to waste the time presenting it further.

I note that there is not harmony and unity among Adventists on this and have seen that nowhere else either.

Hash away at it and if the Spirit moves me I may lay a point or two.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Perfect harmony among ADVENTISTS on this as the prophet has spoken. The problem is not with Adventists, it's with people who CLAIM to be Adventists!

"Inconsistent", perfect choice of words Gibs, I concur!

[Gibs]

I saw posts pro and con by Adventists and I am an Adventist but not of the SDA church structure. Some still want to discuss it and that is ok with me, I leave it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

ClubV12 likes to argue that point, I will leave you to him Samie. ...

And waste my time on a brother who can't recognize what is Scripture from what is not? Until he learns, maybe...

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha,,, you guys crack me up.

When you talking about Adventist doctrine you have to go to the source, the official sanctioned views of the Church. Not some random person who says he goes to Church.

Samie obviously does not agree with the official doctrines of the Church, same for Gibs and a host of others. You don't base your doctrine on some guy walking around the foyer of the Church who says Adventists believe this or that. What if it was Samie, Gibs? What if it was Gibs, Samie?

The problem is obvious, every wind of doctrine blowing like a gale force wind. Nope, if you want to know what Adventists believe you have to go an official source. Good, bad, right, wrong, you can make that decision later based on your own private interpretation if you like. But step 1 is to find out what they REALLY believe, not what you THINK they believe.

No wonder you don't know what Adventists believe, you guys aren't even sure what YOU believe! :)

[Samie]

Somebody OBVIOUSLY is not aware that the SDA Church OFFICIALLY accepts the Bible as the ONLY source of her beliefs. Hopes he learns this sooner...

[ClubV12]

Of course they do Samie, but here's the rub, they don't use your counsel, or Gib's or a million other people to tell them how it should be interpreted.

Denying the counsel of an inspired messenger as a guide to the correct interpretation is one aspect of getting it right.

Or,,, you could consult with Gibs, or your neighbor, or those Jehovahs Witness that come around every so often. You see, the KEY is a wise selection of who you choose to counsel WITH.

Because, scripture is of no private interpretation. And right there is where you step off the straight and narrow.

[Green Cochoa]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

No, not after this statement of 1888,

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

It' clear that she saw them in the future from that statement.

...

Sister White endorsed Josiah Litch's exposition both in the 1888 and 1911 editions of the Great Controversy. Why do you think the 1911 edition of the GC did not supersede her 1888 statement you quoted above?

[Samie]

...

Mrs. White never "endorsed" Josiah Litch's exposition of the prophecy, so far as I am aware. ...

[Green Cochoa]

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

...

Mrs. White never "endorsed" Josiah Litch's exposition of the prophecy, so far as I am aware. ...

Never endorsed? The following is not an endorsement?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

In the year 1840, another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman empire, and specifying not only the year but the very day on which this would take place. ... {GC88 334.4}

At the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. The event exactly fulfilled the prediction. ...{GC88 334.5}

From the English Thesaurus: endorse (vt):Support, sanction, approve, back, give your support to, give your approval to, give your backing to.

Samie,

You will acknowledge, I suppose, that the passage you cited never addresses the matter of whose prediction was spoken of. I take it to refer to that of Josiah Litch. He published his predictions in the newspapers of the day, and his prediction was fulfilled exactly as he had claimed.

There is nothing in the writings of Mrs. White to firmly establish that she interpreted the prophecy just as Josiah Litch did. Nothing.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Samie]

...

Denying the counsel of an inspired messenger as a guide to the correct interpretation is one aspect of getting it right.

....