Steps to Apostasy

[Reddogs]

Adventist who apostatize or leave the church seem to follow nearly the same order in their experience. The fact that so many of who fall away, follow the same path needs to be looked at.

First they look at intellectualism or the "wisdom of man" that negates the Spirit of Prophecy, or the core beliefs of the church. This opens them to question Adventist theology so they look for a variation and some find it and start to follow those like Desmond Ford who use the message of righteousness by faith to try make null and void the scriptures understanding in Adventist foundational doctrines and thought. Once their faith is influenced by this line of thought then the person starts to look for 'cracks' in the Adventist theological so they can justify their rejection of the church and/or their leaving.

They will claim that Adventists follow the gospel of Ellen White rather than Jesus Christ. They feel they are following the original stream of the Protestant Reformation view of the Bible and the Bible only as the only authority in testing the theology of Adventism and that any new light from inspiration even if in harmony with the Bible is a corruption of "truth". They will look for issues with or attack the tried and true texts in the word of God by calling it faulty or not to be understood, they will bring up the charge or 'prooftexting' such as that Adventists use the KJV so they can give the verse, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” Rev. 22:14, which supports Adventist thought. They also will tend to have a issue with Rev 12:17 and 19:10 that reveal that one of the distinctive marks of the remnant church is the Spirit of prophecy. As Adventist well know, Rev 12:17 says that two distinct marks of the remnant seed of God's church is that they 1) keep the commandments of God and 2) have the testimony of Jesus. Among churches that keep the Sabbath, the SDA church is the only one that has a prophet. Among churches that claim to have a prophet, the SDA church is the only one that keeps the Sabbath, so they must destroy faith in the Spirit of prophecy before they can fully get at the belief in keeping the commandments. They claim it is easier to “prove” Adventist theology from the KJV so they try and make a case for other "better" translations. With some of these "newer" or more "contemporary" translations it sometime changes the words such as "Commandment", "Sabbath" and many others which Adventist know by heart to a more obscure reference so it hides the true meaning, but this is used as proof that the understanding by Adventist theologians is faulty.

Then they go after the authorship and words of Steps to Christ, Great Controversy, etc... Soon they find justification to go after the author herself to destroy any belief in any of the light that she shines, they must wipe out any of the direction or expansion on the scripture and prophecies that she gives, as they must wipe out all belief in her role as a messenger of God to justify to their apostasy.

Eventually those that are walking down the steps to apostasy then reach a point when they must decide on Ellen White. Either she was a true prophet, or inspired "messenger of God" or she was not. If she was, then they know they must return to Adventism for she repeatedly stressed the church would not fall and there would be a remnant at the end and that those who leave the Adventist church and turn against it are endangering their souls. So they must justify their apostasy by claiming she was not, then they dont need not be bound by her many statements on those who turn against Adventism.

This is no little matter for Adventists. It must be resolved. Point number 17 in the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists states:

"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."

They state that problem is that the SDA church has two sources of truth, and though the church claims that the Bible is the standard, in practice it is usually the Bible interpreted by Ellen White which thus is a corruption.

Then they reach a point where they will attack the Adventist use of the principles of hermeneutics, which deals with the presuppositions principles and of interpretation. They lay the claim that Adventism have taught their members to study the Bible by the “here a little and there a little” method, and that this is the method often used to prove most of the teachings of Adventism. So any teaching of Adventism is corruption and thus they are justified to reject them and leave the church.

It may not follow exactly, but as a rule they find areas to disagree with the beliefs traditionally held by mainstream Adventism and officially by the church and begin to separate themselves from its beliefs using such as terms such as evangelical Adventism, cultural Adventism, charismatic Adventism, and progressive Adventism and others. They will mildly disagree with then build on it till they get to a point where they reject one or more of the church's basic beliefs such as the Sabbath or core beliefs such as the investigative judgment, the remnant, a future global Sunday-law, or a use of Ellen G. White's writings. They also tend to question some of the denomination's 28 fundamental beliefs: with debate arising on the nature of the Trinity, perpetuity of the Law of God, the Nature of Christ, the Gift of Prophecy, Creation or observance of the seventh-day Sabbath.

You will find that the complaints against Ellen White, hold little merit or the sum of them are trivial in nature or nit picking to say the least. The part which then seems to evolve and become another force pushing them away and you noticed soon that is the most powerful for deception is the false idea of what righteousness by faith is. They build on the idea that behavior has no significance in our lives anymore. They always say that it is not a license to sin but then out of the corner of their mouths they essentially infer it doesn't matter what you do or even if you repent or confess or not, you will be saved. This drift takes them down to the danger which is once saved always saved at it's core even though they deny it.

They then are fully open to the deceptions of even worse snares with another stream from the ecumenical emerging church movement, such as spiritual formation or disciplines. Soon rather than come to church, they are satisfied to just gather in small groups who believed as they do. Or building on the idea that the Sabbath doesn't matter or any day is ok, they being to go to other Sunday keeping churches like those with formed on the Willow Creek model. However, eventually they become embittered against Adventism, and you have never seen such vengeful vitriol as will find coming from former SDA's. In some who go this path, there is a good case for saying they actually hate Adventism with a passion, with a unexplainable bitterness.

I have seen those who use these steps and it always seems to lead to rejection of and leaving the church at its end point, now the problem is once they leave where do they go. Many when they reach this stage, see the truth they have left and the corruption they are embracing and I feel sad as it seems prides seems to show itself and they wont take any counsel at this point, yet feel they are heading somewhere, they just don't know where.

This is a problem that Adventist and the church have yet to truly solve, as we see these souls either following this path against the church and its members or completely letting go of all belief, or worse turning against God and any religion grasping spiritualism or even as I have seen to the occult or other vehicles of belief against God.

[wendys]

You have outlined one common pathway to leaving the church. And you are right that when they are done leaving, many of them have a bitterness and rage against the church that is really strange and unexplainable. I know quite a bit about this because my oldest brother and his family left the church years ago and dragged one of my older sisters and her family out with him. He has written one book against Ellen White and another against the church itself, all with the intent of dragging as many people out of the church as it is possible to do.

There is a second path out that my nephew related to me a couple of months ago. He is a member of a large Arizona Church that used to have more than a thousand members, but now has only about 700. He told me that he has watched as many of the members become involved in things of the world more and more gradually until they find that they have far more in common with the world than they do with the church. He commented to me that it often starts with entertainment centered around their TV (first get a big screen TV, then subscriptions to Netflix and so on). From there it grows to include some Saturday afternoon games, and then they gather with their buddies at the bar for a beer and maybe later include that at the game, and then more and more of their business eats up their time and so on. He said that he has watched many former members follow this path out of the church and knows this is the path they are following because they are posting these things on their Facebook page and he has talked with them personally where he could. When they reach the stage that they have more interests by far with the world than with the church, then they stop coming altogether in most cases. By then it is all over and there is little that can be done for them to interest them to come back.

This path is being followed by many within the church. I think it draws all of us to varying degrees, but we have to hang onto God or we are toast. That is NOT easy sometimes!

Regrading Ellen White. In my own study, I have found her to have superb knowledge of the Bible that is superior to all others. I don't always like what she says for it often tells me that I need to do things differently, which I DO NOT want to do. I cannot say that I am yet able to live in all ways as she recommends, but I am working on it. But I know her writing well enough to know that she can be trusted to speak the truth and it will line up with the Bible if you think it through carefully. Unfortunately, its too easy to say that she is at fault when I am the one who really is at fault. Blame the messenger rather than accept the message! That is the path many follow. I have good reasons to believe that it will be their loss and they may well cause many others to lose out also because of what they are doing.

[Aliensanctuary]

Although still a member of the SDA Church, I haven't attended a service for over a year, mainly due to night shift work, and, the realization that although EGW was a gifted writer, her Last Days scenario and the year=day principle are not supported by the prophecies in the OT.

Since the SDA ideology is more or less based on EGW's writings, I find myself more and more distanced from SDA events. I don't care too much in engaging with the EGW hardliners, either, although I can sympathize with them as I used to be one, too.

I think the SDA organization needs a re-write of some of its old, tired beliefs that don't match up with OT prophecies. For example, the 4 Beasts of the Last Days. SDA's have dragged that out to the Last Three to Four Thousand Years without blinking an eye using their magical year=day or day=year principle. It takes a mighty stretch to wrest that one from scripture.

Simply put, Last Days means Last Days, as stated quite clearly in the book of Daniel. I suppose one might call me an apostate, but I have spent many, many hours reading and listening to the scriptures, and have formulated ideas that envision the advanced technology of YHVH and those who came with him from another place in space/time to help him terraform and colonize this world.

Thus, for me, all churches are irrelevant due to the man-made nature of religion, so corrupted with human thinking. Still, any organization that promotes the teachings of Christ has a part to play, even though they embrace and teach serious misinterpretations.

In the end, our theology is not so important because we probably all have it wrong anyway, but if we treat others with unfailing kindness and unselfishness, even those who harm us, that's the mark of a true servant of YHVH. Next to that, going to church, not going to church, or membership in some man-made religion, are nothing but a puff of air.

Sadly, Babylon calls to all of us, luring some of us to reject our man-made religions and embrace money, entertainment, power, and crime. But there's still hope, for in the Last Days after the resurrection, the Three Angel's Messages and the Two Witnesses will explain the Kingdom of YHVH clearly to everyone, who can then choose their master, either YHVH or Satan.

[Reddogs]

Although still a member of the SDA Church, I haven't attended a service for over a year, mainly due to night shift work, and, the realization that although EGW was a gifted writer, her Last Days scenario and the year=day principle are not supported by the prophecies in the OT.

Since the SDA ideology is more or less based on EGW's writings, I find myself more and more distanced from SDA events. I don't care too much in engaging with the EGW hardliners, either, although I can sympathize with them as I used to be one, too.

I think the SDA organization needs a re-write of some of its old, tired beliefs that don't match up with OT prophecies. For example, the 4 Beasts of the Last Days. SDA's have dragged that out to the Last Three to Four Thousand Years without blinking an eye using their magical year=day or day=year principle. It takes a mighty stretch to wrest that one from scripture.

Simply put, Last Days means Last Days, as stated quite clearly in the book of Daniel. I suppose one might call me an apostate, but I have spent many, many hours reading and listening to the scriptures, and have formulated ideas that envision the advanced technology of YHVH and those who came with him from another place in space/time to help him terraform and colonize this world.

Thus, for me, all churches are irrelevant due to the man-made nature of religion, so corrupted with human thinking. Still, any organization that promotes the teachings of Christ has a part to play, even though they embrace and teach serious misinterpretations.

In the end, our theology is not so important because we probably all have it wrong anyway, but if we treat others with unfailing kindness and unselfishness, even those who harm us, that's the mark of a true servant of YHVH. Next to that, going to church, not going to church, or membership in some man-made religion, are nothing but a puff of air.

Sadly, Babylon calls to all of us, luring some of us to reject our man-made religions and embrace money, entertainment, power, and crime. But there's still hope, for in the Last Days after the resurrection, the Three Angel's Messages and the Two Witnesses will explain the Kingdom of YHVH clearly to everyone, who can then choose their master, either YHVH or Satan.

Can you elaborate on what you feel is 'SDA ideology which is more or less based on EGW's writings', which is not on Biblical.

[Kevin H]

Why do arm chair Adventist critics call the "Day-Year" Theory "Unbiblical" yet archaeologists and others who are experts on the ancient world sees it as one of the basic components of the though process of the ancient world. See for example the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press.

While I respect Desmond Ford's scholarship, his field of study and expertise was in how the Bible was being interpreted 500 years ago. It is NOT the Bible in the historical context of the Bible!

Now, we do need to study more into the cyclic thought of the ancient world and we are weak with this and seeing how the Day-Year fits in. Also there are places where we need to look at the context to see if the day-year principle is to be applied to the context or not. As well as needing to be aware of the cycles and that while a text may be correct in using the day-year application, that may not be the only possible application. While it is correct to apply the day-year principle to Daniel 8:14, the Bible does give two different literal days application to the prophecy that it would be wise for us to study to see how the day-year application works. Then there are times we have applied it where the context does not fit. And there is even a section that we have applied the day-year principle to where the prophecies are talking about specific days with in a larger day-year prophecy and thus we end up double applying the principle.

[phkrause]

Why do arm chair Adventist critics call the "Day-Year" Theory "Unbiblical" yet archaeologists and others who are experts on the ancient world sees it as one of the basic components of the though process of the ancient world. See for example the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press.

Exactly Kevin

[Ron Amnsn]

Why do arm chair Adventist critics call the "Day-Year" Theory "Unbiblical" yet archaeologists and others who are experts on the ancient world sees it as one of the basic components of the though process of the ancient world. See for example the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press.

Kevin, I suppose you don't see the humor in what you wrote here. Rather than show from the Bible how the SDA application of the year-day theory of prophetic interpretation is biblical, you refer to non-biblical sources to supposedly support the idea that the interpretation is biblical.

Although the year-for-a-day thought process is found in the Bible as well as in the culture of that time period, the way it has been applied to Adventist prophetic interpretation is without biblical precedent. All of the Biblical examples of prophecies that use the year-day principal involve both a literal time-period measured in days as well as a literal time-period measured in years. For example, the literal forty days that Caleb and Joshua spied out the promised land and the corresponding literal forty years that were prophesied for Israel to wander in the wilderness. In the Biblical examples of year-day prophesies both time-periods (the one measured in days as well as the one measured in years) start with and end with visible events that mark the beginning and confirm the end of the time-period. Thus the year-day prophecies in the Bible involve four events -- two beginning events and two ending events. In the case of Caleb and Joshua the four events were:

1) The spies enter the land

2) The spies return to the camp 40 days later

3) The Israelites leave the Jordan river to wander in the wilderness

4) The Israelites enter the land of of promise 40 years later

The SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy does not match the Biblical examples of year-day prophecies. The prophecy in Daniel 8 is measured in days, but the interpretation taught by the SDA church is totally missing the time-period of 2300 literal days. The SDA interpretation has a visible event marking the beginning of the alleged 2300-year time period, but no visible event to confirm the end of that time-period measured in years. And (as taught by SDA's) there are no events at all to mark the beginning or the end of the corresponding time-period that would consist of 2300 literal days. In the SDA interpretation the four events are:

1) event missing at the start of 2300 literal days

2) event missing at the end of 2300 literal days

3) the command to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC

4) event missing or non-detectable in 1844

People sometimes point to the 70-"weeks" (literally "70-sevens") prophecy of Daniel 9 as an example of a year-day prophecy in the Bible. But that prophecy didn't refer to days nor did it include any time-period measured in days. God's biblical calendar operated on seven-year cycles that marked the land-Sabbaths, with seven of those "sevens" occurring before each Jubilee year. The 490-year prophecy in Daniel 9 was originally given using those seven-year cycles with seventy groups of seven years comprising 490 years. The "day" portion of the supposed year-day prophetic application is totally absent from Daniel 9.

It is possible that the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy could be correct even without a biblical precedent showing a year-day prophecy that lacked three out of four of the events that marked the beginning and end of the "days" and the "years" of year-day prophecies in the Bible.

However, the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy has another extra-biblical aspect. The SDA interpretation requires belief in the message of two separate prophets. In the Bible, the prophecies given by God were confirmed by the fulfillment events of those prophecies. When a prophet foretold an event and then the event happened and people saw it with their eyes, then even the people who had not previously believed the prophecy could see that the prophecy was true. But the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy requires a person to believe in Daniel as a true prophet of God (and specifically believe in a particular interpretation of Daniel's 2300-day prophecy) and it also requires a person to believe in the prophetic testimony of either Hiram Edson or of Ellen White to make known the fulfillment of the (theoretical) 2300-year prophetic period, which had no visible event to confirm the end of the 2300 years. There is no Biblical example of a prophecy given by God that required another prophet to discern a hidden non-detectable fulfillment of the prophecy. There are instances where God used prophets or teachers to more-fully explain a prophecy-fulfilling event that people saw and confirmed with their own eyes (such as the death of Jesus), but there are no instances in the Bible where nothing detectable happened and God used a prophet to reveal that even though the people detected nothing an important prophecy had been fulfilled.

If all the other ramifications of the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy could be confirmed when tested by Scripture, it could still be possible that the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy could be correct, even without Biblical precedents for these two extra-biblical aspects of that interpretation. I have not found that to be the case.

Is belief in the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy a requirement for membership in the SDA church?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Is belief in the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy a requirement for membership in the SDA church?

No.

[Ron Amnsn]

Adventist who apostatize or leave the church seem to follow nearly the same order in their experience. The fact that so many of who fall away, follow the same path needs to be looked at.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Can you elaborate on what you feel is 'SDA ideology which is more or less based on EGW's writings', which is not on Biblical.

Mainly I was thinking of SDA interpretation of Last Days events, and many SDA's seem to believe that Jesus could come at any moment. I have watched a number of videos cycling through the same EGW scenario.

Mr. Amnsn has responded very well to the day=year critique. Here's an important cue:

Quote:

Dan 9:26, 27.

...a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple...He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler."

Quote:

Dan 12:11.

"From the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days.

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Why do arm chair Adventist critics call the "Day-Year" Theory "Unbiblical"

I'm sorry that you feel that way about me.

As you can see, the Messenger speaking to Daniel stated that the time between the ending of the sacrifices and the setting up of the abomination of desolation is 1290 days. Of course, if it's 1290 years, this ruler is a long-liver indeed.

Because the SDA.org embraces the belief that the Last Days began thousands of years ago, and that a certain ruler who stopped the sacrifices and then, 1290 years later set up an abomination of desolation at the Temple, my baloney detector is flashing and beeping, warning me to not accept the SDA.org's doctrine.

Similarly, the 4 Beasts rising out of a stormy sea indicates the resurrection of humans during the Last Days. Only four world-wide governments will be permitted to re-appear with their former leaders, including Nebuchadnezzar as ruler of the Restored Kingdom of Babylon, not some tiny little backwoods kingdom as it was in the past, but a world-wide superpower.

The 4th Kingdom of the Last Days is not Rome, but a powerful, destructive Kingdom not from Earth. The 4th Beast is the Kingdom of Satan, possessing technology that overwhelms us poor, dumb humans, destroying our cities, killing millions of people, and capturing the Temple existing during the Last Days.

The Last Days time period does not stretch out for more than 3,000 years as SDA's believe, but is confined to a narrow time slot of less than seven years, which is, big surprise, at the end of the road for life on this planet, for a while, anyway.

So, the SDA preachers and evangelists can beat their pulpits and preach the same old stuff until the cows fly home, but I see things differently, and I will travel to the beat of a different drum. If the EGW hardliners want to insult me or leave their teeth marks in my backside, that's OK. I'm not offended, rather, I hope that they can break free of the chains of their man-made religion. I believe EGW and the Founding Fathers may have arrived at different conclusions about the Last Days and the Day of the Lord if they had read the OT, and especially the book of Daniel, more carefully.

[wendys]

Aliensanctuary, I think you must have Adventists mixed up with some other group. Adventists do NOT believe that the end times stretch out over 3,000 years. They have always taught that the end times began in 1798 and continue to the end. I don't know of any SDAs who believe as you think they believe. I don't know why the web site you mentioned would say that the end times stretches out over 3,000 years, but if they actually did say that, its a mistake because I know for a fact that Adventists have never taught that. More likely is that this is a mistake in your understanding of what they actually said?

Could you please get your facts straight on this?

[Aliensanctuary]

Remember the 12 disciples of Christ, how they were brainwashed by the established religion. Instead of studying the scriptures concerning the Messiah, they entertained popular false beliefs, and when events didn't take place like they thought they would, they lost their courage and hope. If we study the scriptures as Christ warned us, we will not be shocked at the events that will take place after we are resurrected.

Although we may imagine we will be among the 144K, only those descended from Jacob will have the opportunity to be a part of that select group. The rest of us will be tested, as the book of Rev. indicates. We will stand after the resurrection, probably naked, among all those who have ever lived on this planet, a seething ocean of people. During that time period when the 4 Beasts arise, all must choose their master. Most will make the wrong choice, and those who choose to serve YHVH will be persecuted and killed. That's why Jesus said that those who die will live, and those who live will die. The servants of YHVH who are killed will be safe, but woe to their persecutors.

All religions are man-made, invented by their creators for power or profit. Anyone in modern times can claim they had "visions" from God, but you can trust them only at your own peril. Those who believe Adventism has a prophet would also believe Mohammed was a prophet if they were Muslim, or, that Joseph Smith was a prophet if they were Mormon, etc.

If we study the scriptures carefully we will likely be less surprised at the turn of events during the Last Days than if we listen to those who are promoted as "prophets" and focus on them instead.

For some, man-made religions, so full of conflicting doctrine and erring people, is disgusting, but they will have an opportunity to see clearly the choice of Masters they must make. In THAT DAY everyone will be given the opportunity to make an informed choice, and the more we study the scriptures, the better our chances of making the right choice.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

we will not be shocked at the events that will take place after we are resurrected.

"But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.1 Thessalonians 5:4 NLT

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."1 Cor 15:51-53 NKJ

God/Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

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This path is being followed by many within the church. I think it draws all of us to varying degrees, but we have to hang onto God or we are toast. That is NOT easy sometimes!

I would suggest insofar as the last phrase, only as a result of losing the trust of Jesus or His Word.

"Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”"Matthew 11:28-30 NLT

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”"John 8:32 NLT"

Since Jesus is defined in the Word as the Word and the Truth, it is only as we separate ourselves from either One or the Other, and fail to listen to the Guide (the Holy Spirit), I would suggest it is then and only then that it becomes difficult to accomplish the Divine will.

Most if not all are saved as a result of recognizing the reason life gets easier or more difficult is directly correlated to whether or not we're feeding the carnal nature or the Divine nature.

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”" Hebrews 13:5 NKJV

Jesus/God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

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Is belief in the SDA interpretation of the 2300-day prophecy a requirement for membership in the SDA church?

No.

And may I suggest, that since our deficiencies leave a gap insurmountable by the righteousness of mankind, only trusting in the saving grace of Jesus by His righteousness, both for justification and sanctification, will suffice for establishing ourselves suitable for deliverance into His Kingdom.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[CoAspen]

Many have 'end-time' theories, yours is but another one. All believe their own is correct and all others wrong. All claim just 'study the Bible' and you will know 'I speak truth'.....yet we have interpretations!!

Perhaps the focus should be on following the H*S in our daily lives and when the 'end' comes, one is ready. You call against 'human religion' and yet you are human and preaching a 'religion.!!

[M. T. Cross]

Reddogs, the things you list are fairly common.......

Then again some just walk away to either atheism or completely non Christian religions.

[phkrause]

Many have 'end-time' theories, yours is but another one. All believe their own is correct and all others wrong. All claim just 'study the Bible' and you will know 'I speak truth'.....yet we have interpretations!!

Perhaps the focus should be on following the H*S in our daily lives and when the 'end' comes, one is ready. You call against 'human religion' and yet you are human and preaching a 'religion.!!

[wendys]

To LifeHiscost,

You know, Ellen White tells us that the hardest battle we have to fight is with ourselves. She also indicates that as soon as a person becomes a Christian, the war with the self begins then. Many people have the idea that the war is over by then, but that is not so. Satan is not going to give an inch so you can be sure that he'll fight hard to get back those who have left him. This means a battle is certain. If a person says that its easy, then I would be concerned that they are not really fighting that battle and are not aware of their sins. I cannot speak for them, but that is my immediate thought when they say this because of the facts of our situation in this world.

Other real Christians tell me that they too have a battle to fight. This is the way it is. That means its not easy. But its well worth it. Anything well worth doing is not going to be easy. Ellen White tells us that when people get to heaven, one of the things they will say is that "heaven is cheap enough," which means that it is worth any sacrifice in order to be there. Something to think about. There is sacrifice involved and its not going to be easy.

[LifeHiscost]

“Jesus asked him, “What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?”

“They tax the people they have conquered,” Peter replied. “Well, then,” Jesus said, “the citizens are free!"

Matthew 17:26-27 NLT

"I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have [perfect] peace and confidence. In the world you have tribulation and trials and distress and frustration; but be of good cheer [take courage; be confident, certain, undaunted]! For I have overcome the world. [i have deprived it of power to harm you and have conquered it for you.]John 16:32-33 NLT brackets their's LHC

"Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls."Matthew 11:29 NLT

Perhaps we're shouldering the wrong yoke by the wrong master.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

The Kingdom of YHVH is not a religion, only humans have turned the scriptures into a cacophony of conflicting religions, all with different levels of rules and regulations, myths and superstitions. Some people realize that, and prefer to have nothing to do with religion. They may be no farther from the Kingdom than those who attend church services weekly.

The Kingdom of YHVH is just a matter of masters and servants. Christ spoke often on the topic of servant's responsibilities toward their master, and it was no coincidence that Israel was enslaved for many, many years by cruel masters. It is our responsibility to become faithful servants of YHVH, our good master, in order to prepare us for the test that lies ahead.

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Adventists do NOT believe that the end times stretch out over 3,000 years.

Well, maybe 2,500 years or so. Babylon did exist long before Nebuchadnezzar. (Tower of Babel)

When the Messenger to Daniel told him the visions of the 4 Beasts were for the Last Days, the Adventists started the countdown from historical Babylon, not the Babylon that arises after the resurrection. Nebuchadnezzar of the past had only a small kingdom, but the Nebuchadnezzar of the future will be the ruler of a superpower, and he will even be given the power to control animals and birds, just as Bible characters relied on YHVH's control of hornets, birds, and fish, etc. It's doubtful Nebuchadnezzar had access to that kind of power several hundred years before Christ.

Dan 2:1

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One night during the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that disturbed him so much that he couldn't sleep.

Dan 8:1

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During the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I, Daniel, saw another vision...

Dan 9:1

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It was the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede...who became king of the Babylonians.

Dan 10:1

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In the third year of the reign of King Cyrus of Persia

Dan 8:17-20

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As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell to the ground. "Son of man," he said, "you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end."

While he was speaking, I fainted and lay there with my face to the ground. But Gabriel roused me with a touch and helped me to my feet.

Then he said, "I am here to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath. What you have seen pertains to the very end of time.

The two-horned ram represents the kings of Media and Persia.

Dan 8:26

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"This vision about the twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings* is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so do not tell anyone about them yet."

As we can see above, the dreams and visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar occurred while Babylon and Persia were still in existence. Even though the Messenger from YHVH told Daniel that these events were going to happen in the distant future during the Last Days, the SDA DVD’s and literature I have viewed stated that Daniel's visions predicted the rise and fall of historical Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and an unnamed power. Adventist literature claims that the 4th Beast arose when Pagan Rome ascended to power, and that Rome continues on today as the 4th Beast, apparently in a state of dormancy.

The evangelists state that the Bible predicted the rising in sequence of the 4 kingdoms, even though some of the kingdoms were already in power. Never mind the Assyrian kingdom, which was also around at that time, planning to sweep across Israel in a wave of destruction. Instead, it was itself destroyed by YHVH.

Maybe some Adventists believe that the 4 Beasts of Daniel will indeed re-appear after the resurrection from among a sea of people. If so, this is the first I have heard of it.

Anyway, apostasy may only mean rejection of the sad state of today's money-grabbing religions, not rejection of YHVH.

[JoeMo]

People don't "apostasize" by leaving a denomination. The SDA church (or any other denomination)will not save anyone. True apostacy is turning away from God - the only source of salvation. Although I remain an SDA, I know lots of people who have left the church that have experienced much blessing and spiritual growth. God speaks to those who believe in Him regardless of denomination. He doesn't just talk to SDA's and their prophet. Some people need what Adventism has to offer. Other need more (or less).

[LifeHiscost]

People don't "apostasize" by leaving a denomination. The SDA church (or any other denomination)will not save anyone. True apostacy is turning away from God - the only source of salvation. Although I remain an SDA, I know lots of people who have left the church that have experienced much blessing and spiritual growth. God speaks to those who believe in Him regardless of denomination. He doesn't just talk to SDA's and their prophet. Some people need what Adventism has to offer. Other need more (or less).

I'm sure you would agree if one is following false information (doctrine) after having been given that which is Truth, that could be strong indication a person does not wish to follow that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to them.

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:31-33 NKJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth, and the life..."John 14:6 KJV

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

Jesus/God saves!

[CoAspen]

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I'm sure you would agree if one is following false information (doctrine) after having been given that which is Truth, that could be strong indication a person does not wish to follow that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to them.

If you are suggesting that leaving the church means going after the false, that would not be Biblical. What the H*S reveals to one may be different for another. We need to get away from the idea that one shoe fits all. SDA's and other faiths have a long history of defining 'false' doctrine...they can't be all correct....can they? So to label something with the word 'false' has many implications and should be used very carefully.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If you are suggesting that leaving the church means going after the false, that would not be Biblical. What the H*S reveals to one may be different for another. We need to get away from the idea that one shoe fits all. SDA's and other faiths have a long history of defining 'false' doctrine...they can't be all correct....can they? So to label something with the word 'false' has many implications and should be used very carefully.