Steps to Apostasy

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So to label something with the word 'false' has many implications and should be used very carefully.

So as to be as careful as one could be, decide what is consistent with all the rest of what is written in the Word and hold lightly to personal opinions that have no higher source than one's self logic to commend it for another to emulate. As I recall all those of the original group of followers of the Word except for the Apostle John the revelator, met with an untimely death as a result of pursuing and sharing without compromise, the Word.

Can you recommend a better path to follow, to gain that which you cannot lose in place of that which you cannot keep?

"For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

‘The stone that you builders rejected

has now become the cornerstone.’

There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”"

Acts 4:11-12 NLT

"“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"Jeremiah 17:9 NKJV

Jesus/God saves!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

So as to be as careful as one could be, decide what is consistent with all the rest of what is written in the Word and hold lightly to personal opinions that have no higher source than one's self logic to commend it for another to emulate.

A start would be that which I put in bold. Along with that would be, interpretations of ones own reading of the Bible, Not looking at others, not looking for the 'wrong' in others, not feeling as if one has the 'truth' for others, etc,etc. Salvation is personal, not corporate. We are not others guides or conscience, we can never presume to know their journey or the end of it.

For me, to sum it all up, is to nourish a relationship with God by, listening to the H*S, and let that lead your life. Our constant fixation on a 'straight and narrow path' presupposes only one journey/experience for everyone to heaven. We have put God in our own box and decided how, when and where He operate. We don't control God and He does not control others. Can we do any less for those around us?

Apostasy, for me, is thinking, acting or in any way, putting myself before God while claiming to follow God.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Our constant fixation on a 'straight and narrow path' presupposes only one journey/experience for everyone to heaven.

"For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]."1 Thessalonians 4:15 AMP brackets theirs' LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

I suppose rejection of the creation and flood stories, that is, rejection of the scriptures, would be the first steps in apostasy, not just apostasy from a denomination. If one believes that the scriptures are myths, then God must be a myth also. With no scriptural code of ethics to guide one's moral compass, with no God, one must instead look to other humans in order to mirror their moral decisions.

No matter how evil and reprehensible one's actions and thoughts may be, the final act of doom is the rejection of any attempts of the Spirit of God to bring conviction and repentance. Under demonic control the God-hating apostate cares nothing for others and seeks only his own gain and gratification.

Sometimes that type of person manages to gain control of countries, tyrranize its people, and create wars, mass casualties, and mass destruction. Satan, of course, delights in the death of humans.

[Gregory Matthews]

The word "myth" does not mean that the story is false. a myth may or may not be true.

One dictionary definition of the word myth is:

Quote:

Any real or fictional story, recurring theme, or character type that appeals to the consciousness of a people by embodying its cultural ideals or by giving expression to deep, commonly felt emotions.

IOW, a myth may be true and it may be false.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I'm sure you would agree if one is following false information (doctrine) after having been given that which is Truth, that could be strong indication a person does not wish to follow that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to them.

I do agree LHC. But reliable, correct and accurate information (doctrine) comes from only two sources - God's Word and the Holy Spirit speaking to one's heart. It does not reliably come from a denomination. Furthermore, the message the Spirit speaks to your heart may not be the same one He speaks to mine. Maybe you need guidance different than what I need. God could have us on different paths. Even though they are different paths, they are the perfect ones for us, because God put us there. At least that's what's in my heart.

[JoeMo]

Hey CoAspen,

I should have read your post before I put mine up. I think we both kinda said the same thing. It's nice to know we are on the same track.

[Tom Wetmore]

... If one believes that the scriptures are myths, then God must be a myth also...

Consistent with Gregory's point and expanding it a bit, I would say that believing that Scripture may contain some myths (note, I am not saying it is so or that all Scripture is myth) does not mean that God is a myth, even in the narrow sense you apparently meant. One can continue to firmly believe in God and recognize the human messengers that wrote Scripture were not perfect in the efforts to write about Him or even accurately report events and retell the stories of their ancestors, including the myths and legends mixed in with truthful history that were passed down through the generations.

[LifeHiscost]

Hey CoAspen,

I should have read your post before I put mine up. I think we both kinda said the same thing. It's nice to know we are on the same track.

Because God meets us where we are, especially so when our deepest desires are to know the Truth, He doesn't leave us there

but changes us into a reflection of His Son, which probably happens at different times for each individual depending on our ability to receive what He is willing to give.

"“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."John 16:12 NASB

The pathway is the continuous infilling of the character of Jesus and the place where we begin is always yielding to the Person of Jesus Himself. The end result of being willing to submit to Jesus is always the same.

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."Ephesians 4:4-6 NASB

God bless you one and all, on your journey to meet the King.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Reddogs]

You have outlined one common pathway to leaving the church. And you are right that when they are done leaving, many of them have a bitterness and rage against the church that is really strange and unexplainable. I know quite a bit about this because my oldest brother and his family left the church years ago and dragged one of my older sisters and her family out with him. He has written one book against Ellen White and another against the church itself, all with the intent of dragging as many people out of the church as it is possible to do.

There is a second path out that my nephew related to me a couple of months ago. He is a member of a large Arizona Church that used to have more than a thousand members, but now has only about 700. He told me that he has watched as many of the members become involved in things of the world more and more gradually until they find that they have far more in common with the world than they do with the church. He commented to me that it often starts with entertainment centered around their TV (first get a big screen TV, then subscriptions to Netflix and so on). From there it grows to include some Saturday afternoon games, and then they gather with their buddies at the bar for a beer and maybe later include that at the game, and then more and more of their business eats up their time and so on. He said that he has watched many former members follow this path out of the church and knows this is the path they are following because they are posting these things on their Facebook page and he has talked with them personally where he could. When they reach the stage that they have more interests by far with the world than with the church, then they stop coming altogether in most cases. By then it is all over and there is little that can be done for them to interest them to come back.

This path is being followed by many within the church. I think it draws all of us to varying degrees, but we have to hang onto God or we are toast. That is NOT easy sometimes!

Regrading Ellen White. In my own study, I have found her to have superb knowledge of the Bible that is superior to all others. I don't always like what she says for it often tells me that I need to do things differently, which I DO NOT want to do. I cannot say that I am yet able to live in all ways as she recommends, but I am working on it. But I know her writing well enough to know that she can be trusted to speak the truth and it will line up with the Bible if you think it through carefully. Unfortunately, its too easy to say that she is at fault when I am the one who really is at fault. Blame the messenger rather than accept the message! That is the path many follow. I have good reasons to believe that it will be their loss and they may well cause many others to lose out also because of what they are doing.

Wow, that is some witness. Seems it just takes a tiny seed of doubt and faith can be destroyed with devastating results especially if in the family.

[Gerr]

The word "myth" does not mean that the story is false. a myth may or may not be true.

One dictionary definition of the word myth is:

Quote:

Any real or fictional story, recurring theme, or character type that appeals to the consciousness of a people by embodying its cultural ideals or by giving expression to deep, commonly felt emotions.

IOW, a myth may be true and it may be false.

But in common parlance, I think this meaning of "myth" is what is understood: b : an unfounded or false notion

3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

2 a widely held but false belief.

▶ a fictitious person or thing.

▶ an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing.

Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Which dictionary gives the definition of "myth" as "real"?

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

myth...an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing.

Maybe we all believe in myth to some extant, but our own myths are more true than other's myths.

[wendys]

Reddogs,

What is troubling about this is how easily it happens that people get that seed of doubt. It can come from most any source, but once planted, all you have to do is wait for it to blossom and it likely will. It seems to me that these people need some "weedkiller," but I wonder how many of them will be willing to use it? I have been told that a rather surprising percentage of the church does not engage in any Bible study on a daily basis, so perhaps this is where the problem lies for many of them.

One very common source of doubt comes from fellow church members' behavior. So much cruelty occurs within the church and I think that is the source of doubt for many. This reminds me of an event my oldest sister told me of some years ago that she personally witnessed. She said that their church held a series of evangelistic meetings and there were people who were interested. One woman in particular was interested and began coming to church. One Sabbath morning soon after, she brought a vegetarian lasagna dish she had made for the potluck and made the "horrible mistake" of using cheese in it, of all "terrible" things to do. Well, one of the good SDA women in that church observed this and decided that it was her duty to fix this failure, so she marched over to this woman right after she set down her dish and proceeded to thoroughly tongue lash her for using cheese in the lasagna and how she had to know that we are not to use cheese! So, the woman who brought the dish began to cry, picked up her dish, and left, and never again came back to church. I rather think it likely that the other woman walked away, very satisfied that she had done her duty to correct the errors within the church!

My sister personally witnessed this event and it happened quickly enough that she could not stop it. I don't know why that other SDA woman decided that she was the Holy Spirit and was to convict this new believer of the error of her ways, but in my mind, she played the part assigned to her by the devil, and did so superbly well.

The problem here was her cruel words. Its not just to new believers that this happens to, but to many, even those who have been within the church for many years. It is my observation that this does terrible damage and the devil will reap a huge harvest because of the thoughtless and cruel words spoken within the church. I cannot claim that I am faultless as no doubt I have said something to someone that may have discouraged them, though I certainly hope I have not done that. But we really need to be careful of what we say to others as we can do lasting, eternal damage that can never be fixed or reversed in any way. Many will be lost because of this one factor alone.

The same goes for our schools. I know of people who have been very cruelly treated in SDA schools. This should not happen, but it does only too often. I recall one fellow student I knew in an SDA academy that I attended who was marginalized and ostracized by others (he was not an SDA), and soon after he graduated, he murdered an old SDA lady from whom he rented a room because she would not stop talking about what Ellen White said, apparently using Ellen White as a moral club on him. Had he been treated with more kindness at the school, perhaps that murder would not have happened.

I know of another case where a student was constantly harassed. Kids very frequently picked fights with him, pulled chairs out from behind him as he sat down so that he fell to the floor, and any other manner of cruel behavior that they could think of to inflict on him. Satan ruled these kids completely. The teachers did nothing. I don't know if he is an SDA today, but if he is, I would be extremely surprised. I would not blame him if he had left long ago.

People's bad behavior gives permission to others to behave in the same way. Their influence spreads like a wildfire and you have no idea where it will end or the damage it will do.

If the church were a place of genuine kindness in the way that it should be, I think there would be a different outcome to these things. But as it is, that isn't going to happen. I think it will give the devil a very rich harvest of people who will go to hell with him.

I recall reading years ago of the story of a young woman in New York City who was a drug and alcohol addict. But somehow she got involved with an Adventist Bible study group. As time went on, she became good friends with the people in the group and this helped her more than you can imagine. One night at the study, her boyfriend showed up on his motorcycle and demanded that she come with him. Everyone knew that if she did, she would go back to her old life and never get out of it again. She hesitated and then said "No!, I am staying!" The friendship of the group held her and kept her from going back to her old life and as a result, she made the right decision.

So, while I know that there are reasons that people lose their way from failure to study their Bibles as they should, my own thinking is that in many instances, the real problem lies within the society as it exists within the church, the way we treat one another. We as church members do not practice the kind of kindness that would hold people back from going the wrong way when they most need it.

There is one other factor that is becoming more important to understand why people leave the church. Today with the Internet, there is every possible idea that man has which can be found on the Internet. This ranges from sex to terrorism to intellectual pursuits to every form of Christian doctrine known to man. In recent surveys done that were reported on in the Adventist Review, they mentioned that fundamental disagreement with the major doctrines of the church is a factor in a number of people leaving the church. With all the ideas on the Internet, one has to wonder if their disagreement occurs because they were not properly taught in the beginning and when questions arose, instead of going to their pastor and asking questions, they went to the Internet and learned from every possible source under the sun, but not from the Bible and not from the church. I really suspect that the Internet, as beneficial as it can be, can also destroy because people seek knowledge from the wrong sources and do not make sure that they really have learned the truth. But, again, if they were closer to people within the church, perhaps they might not make an unwise decision. How they are treated can make a difference.

[Reddogs]

Reddogs,

What is troubling about this is how easily it happens that people get that seed of doubt. It can come from most any source, but once planted, all you have to do is wait for it to blossom and it likely will. It seems to me that these people need some "weedkiller," but I wonder how many of them will be willing to use it? I have been told that a rather surprising percentage of the church does not engage in any Bible study on a daily basis, so perhaps this is where the problem lies for many of them.

One very common source of doubt comes from fellow church members' behavior. So much cruelty occurs within the church and I think that is the source of doubt for many. This reminds me of an event my oldest sister told me of some years ago that she personally witnessed. She said that their church held a series of evangelistic meetings and there were people who were interested. One woman in particular was interested and began coming to church. One Sabbath morning soon after, she brought a vegetarian lasagna dish she had made for the potluck and made the "horrible mistake" of using cheese in it, of all "terrible" things to do. Well, one of the good SDA women in that church observed this and decided that it was her duty to fix this failure, so she marched over to this woman right after she set down her dish and proceeded to thoroughly tongue lash her for using cheese in the lasagna and how she had to know that we are not to use cheese! So, the woman who brought the dish began to cry, picked up her dish, and left, and never again came back to church. I rather think it likely that the other woman walked away, very satisfied that she had done her duty to correct the errors within the church!

My sister personally witnessed this event and it happened quickly enough that she could not stop it. I don't know why that other SDA woman decided that she was the Holy Spirit and was to convict this new believer of the error of her ways, but in my mind, she played the part assigned to her by the devil, and did so superbly well.

The problem here was her cruel words. Its not just to new believers that this happens to, but to many, even those who have been within the church for many years. It is my observation that this does terrible damage and the devil will reap a huge harvest because of the thoughtless and cruel words spoken within the church. I cannot claim that I am faultless as no doubt I have said something to someone that may have discouraged them, though I certainly hope I have not done that. But we really need to be careful of what we say to others as we can do lasting, eternal damage that can never be fixed or reversed in any way. Many will be lost because of this one factor alone.

The same goes for our schools. I know of people who have been very cruelly treated in SDA schools. This should not happen, but it does only too often. I recall one fellow student I knew in an SDA academy that I attended who was marginalized and ostracized by others (he was not an SDA), and soon after he graduated, he murdered an old SDA lady from whom he rented a room because she would not stop talking about what Ellen White said, apparently using Ellen White as a moral club on him. Had he been treated with more kindness at the school, perhaps that murder would not have happened.

I know of another case where a student was constantly harassed. Kids very frequently picked fights with him, pulled chairs out from behind him as he sat down so that he fell to the floor, and any other manner of cruel behavior that they could think of to inflict on him. Satan ruled these kids completely. The teachers did nothing. I don't know if he is an SDA today, but if he is, I would be extremely surprised. I would not blame him if he had left long ago.

People's bad behavior gives permission to others to behave in the same way. Their influence spreads like a wildfire and you have no idea where it will end or the damage it will do.

If the church were a place of genuine kindness in the way that it should be, I think there would be a different outcome to these things. But as it is, that isn't going to happen. I think it will give the devil a very rich harvest of people who will go to hell with him.

I recall reading years ago of the story of a young woman in New York City who was a drug and alcohol addict. But somehow she got involved with an Adventist Bible study group. As time went on, she became good friends with the people in the group and this helped her more than you can imagine. One night at the study, her boyfriend showed up on his motorcycle and demanded that she come with him. Everyone knew that if she did, she would go back to her old life and never get out of it again. She hesitated and then said "No!, I am staying!" The friendship of the group held her and kept her from going back to her old life and as a result, she made the right decision.

So, while I know that there are reasons that people lose their way from failure to study their Bibles as they should, my own thinking is that in many instances, the real problem lies within the society as it exists within the church, the way we treat one another. We as church members do not practice the kind of kindness that would hold people back from going the wrong way when they most need it.

There is one other factor that is becoming more important to understand why people leave the church. Today with the Internet, there is every possible idea that man has which can be found on the Internet. This ranges from sex to terrorism to intellectual pursuits to every form of Christian doctrine known to man. In recent surveys done that were reported on in the Adventist Review, they mentioned that fundamental disagreement with the major doctrines of the church is a factor in a number of people leaving the church. With all the ideas on the Internet, one has to wonder if their disagreement occurs because they were not properly taught in the beginning and when questions arose, instead of going to their pastor and asking questions, they went to the Internet and learned from every possible source under the sun, but not from the Bible and not from the church. I really suspect that the Internet, as beneficial as it can be, can also destroy because people seek knowledge from the wrong sources and do not make sure that they really have learned the truth. But, again, if they were closer to people within the church, perhaps they might not make an unwise decision. How they are treated can make a difference.

Especially if there is hypocrisy, when children see these types of behavior of members and adults, then compare it to the example of Christ, it can leave an imprint. They see it with unvarnished eyes, no excuse or shading can hide it, and if left unresolved, the seed of doubt is implanted. We must be true and always faithful in our actions and thoughts, especially with these young minds.

As for the internet, I had one of my Pathfinders who used to give sermons and Bible studies, lose all he believed from going into one of these sites that say the SOP contradicts the Bible, giving the example of when Eve wandered away from Adam and was alone and was tempted by the serpent. He went into rejection of all truth and now goes to no church or denomination, there are truly many dangers and snares out there.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry said:

Quote:

But in common parlance, I think this meaning of "myth" is what is understood: b : an unfounded or false notion

3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

I would agree that the above is common parlance.

But, that does not mean that I should give that meaning to anyone who suggests that something is a myth.

I use that word and who use it in the other sense. I read the writings of those who also use it in the same way that I use it.

The bottom line is: The word myth may mean reference a story of great value to a group without any attachment as to whether it is true or false.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What is troubling about this is how easily it happens that people get that seed of doubt. It can come from most any source, but once planted, all you have to do is wait for it to blossom and it likely will. It seems to me that these people need some "weedkiller," but I wonder how many of them will be willing to use it? I have been told that a rather surprising percentage of the church does not engage in any Bible study on a daily basis, so perhaps this is where the problem lies for many of them.

Amen! OTOH when one remembers what the Word reveals to be true and how a Sovereign of Love performs, nothing can shake them out of the fold.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."John 16:33 KJV

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"

Hebrews 13:5 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[wendys]

LifeHiscost,

Yes, I think the "weedkiller" is good old fashioned Bible study, which we all, myself included, need to do a whole lot more of these days. The end is almost here. Time for a whole lot more Bible study, and get it done without delay.

That Bible study will hold a lot in the truth where they would otherwise be shaken out. I think back on my own experience and realize that does make a difference. From what I have observed, I think it makes a difference to others as well.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Yes, I think the "weedkiller" is good old fashioned Bible study

With a sincere friendly prayer time daily with our Father I can only say amen. Bible study without the Holy Spirit's guidance could place us in danger of this position below.

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

What is troubling about this is how easily it happens that people get that seed of doubt. It can come from most any source, but once planted, all you have to do is wait for it to blossom and it likely will.

The seed of doubt will only blossom if we choose to nourish it. We can either believe what legalistic and judgemental people tell us or we can believe what our loving and merciful Father tells us. Others may see our history and criticize us - usually because they deem themselves better than us. I've seen newcomers raked over the coals for bringing cheese dishes or Fried Chicken to a pot luck; or for smelling like a cigarette or a beer on a chance meeting outside of church. If we listen to our heavenly Father, He tells us about our destiny - not our past. He builds us up and encourages us to live better in the future. God is much more interested in our future than in our past; He is much more interested in saving us than punishing us. If people at your church find it necessary in their heart to publicly rebuke others, you should find another church. People don't define us. A denomination doesn't define us. Our heavenly father defines us.

[CoAspen]

Excellent! There is nothiing to fear but fear itself.

[LifeHiscost]

God/Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

There is nothiing to fear but fear itself.

Good quote from Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Splat!

"“And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”" Revelation 14:6-8 NLT Bold mine LHC

God/Jesus saves!

[Ron Amnsn]

As for the internet, I had one of my Pathfinders who used to give sermons and Bible studies, lose all he believed from going into one of these sites that say the SOP contradicts the Bible, giving the example of when Eve wandered away from Adam and was alone and was tempted by the serpent. He went into rejection of all truth and now goes to no church or denomination, there are truly many dangers and snares out there.

The Internet is only a part of this problem.

If the SDA church were teaching people to test EGW's writings by the Bible (see Fundamental Belief #18), then it would be people within the church who would be teaching young people about those contradictions rather than waiting until they find out about it on an antagonistic website.

What happens when a young person comes back to a church leader showing them that the Bible says Adam was with Eve (Gen 3:6) but that EGW says Adam was not with Eve? Rather than clearly affirming that the Bible is correct, I'd guess that most church leaders would try to show that EGW is correct. That is the real faith-destroying problem. If a young person sees a contradiction between the Bible and EGW, their leaders need to solidly affirm that the Bible is correct. Young people don't need faith in EGW, but they do need faith in what the Bible says.

The snare is that within the church people are not taught to test every sentence of EGW's writings using Scripture.

[Kevin H]

Biblical scholars debate over how the "And she gave to her husband who was with her" should be understood. But also, Mrs. White does NOT claim to be a commentary on the Bible. That idea developed during the 1920s as the church replaced A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, stripped Willie White's office of any power, and had witch hunts against the Washington Missionary College Bible department and had witch hunts in our other schools and churches to rid those who held to the same views of inspiration that White and Daniels et. el. held and wanting to spread views of the Philadelphia Bible conference in it's place through out Adventism.

Mrs. White saw her job as that of a local prophet, making APPLICATIONS of Biblical PRINCIPLES to OUR lives TODAY, especially truths that we have lost sight of. Messages for the development of the church, the medical and education work, and the principles of the Great Controversy.

We have not been fair to Mrs. White, wanting to prove to the world that we are good Baptists and wanting Mrs. White to fit the Fundamentalist's view of how inspiration works.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

We have not been fair to Mrs. White, wanting to prove to the world that we are good Baptists and wanting Mrs. White to fit the Fundamentalist's view of how inspiration works.

Very well stated, Kevin.