Sharing the gospel with an Atheist

[Sojourner]

So the short version of the long story is this, the other day I met up with another parent at my children’s school who my wife and I have become good friends with. The School is an SDA run school. The previous Sabbath a special service had been held for the school kids and a number of non people not affiliated with the SDA had attended. This friend of mine asked me if I had gone and I replied that is where I am a member of, so I go each week there. She then told me that she does not go to any church at all because she is an Atheist. She says that she likes the SDA school system because of the values and moral ethics practiced there. She then went on to say that the reason she is an Atheist is because as a girl she was sexually assaulted for a long period of her life and cried out to God on many occasions for help, the help never came and she suggests that the reason is because He does not exist. She is a lovely lady and appears to be open to discussion on the topic, she has a relative that is a church goer for whom she allows her child to attend church with from time to time, so not totally close minded to Church.

I want to witness Christ to her, I have a number of ideas about the answers to the question, but I can tell that a theological discussion is probably not going to achieve a great deal. I am thinking of getting her a copy of Rabbi Harold Kushner’s book “Why Bad things happen to Good people” which I have found helpful in the past as a starting point in to talking with her about this issue. I would like to ask your opinions if you think this is a good approach and what you might suggest I could do in this instance, can you think of any other books that I might be able to get a hold of to pass on to her that might be of some help, or another way I might be able to share Jesus with her in a way that might be accepted and understood in spite of what she has been through?

[LifeHiscost]

If you have a loving relationship with Jesus as your Lord, the best thing to do would be to admit, while you don't have all the answers to those very difficult experiences, you can point out how learning of Christ as your Caretaker has allowed you to claim the promises He's made to you in His Word. And then perhaps reflecting on the fact that God is love would indicate that nothing He has permitted is without it's final positive outcome, far over and above any temporary difficulty that one might have endured.

It remains to be seen fully, why the freewill of man is allowed to flourish with intent to do evil. However one day we will be able ask our Creator/Savior all those questions to satisfy our need for answers if we put our trust in Him. One day we will be able to say, with full assurance, "Oh so that's the reason why I had to go through that!"

Reading the Scriptures with intent to learn to know Jesus on a personal level, will not end up in disappointment. We have this promise on that.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Jeremiah 29:13 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gail]

That is a big question, the one of human suffering in the sight of a loving God.

The thing about God is that He can bring healing when nothing else can assuage the pain. I tell people that God doesn't waste any experience, that the Bible says that all things work together for good to those who love Him. Being a Christian doesn't remove painful experiences- we all suffer the effects of the sorrow of a sinful world. But there is a difference in the outcome to those that look to God for their help.

If this woman can discover that God gives purpose to the suffering she has gone through she may consider that she has not been forgotten. Because of her experience she has an insight to pain that makes her better able to help others who find themselves in a similar situation.

I like your idea of sharing the book I wish there was no such thing as sexual abuse. I hope that she can know that you are genuinely concerned about her well-being and that this knowledge is a comfort to her. Her path is a painful one and I hope that she has a happy ending to her story.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I like your idea of sharing the book I wish there was no such thing as sexual abuse.

I wonder if she has or could get access to that video Stan put on the forum. Would that be something that could be of help? I wasn't able to get everything out of it I would have liked since the sound on my computer is out but maybe the video might have something helpful. Just sayin'.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[phkrause]

Sojourner, that has to be one of the most difficult questions to answer. It also seems that living your life as an example is one of the only ways to witness to anyone, let-a-lone an atheist who already has there mind set. Obviously she has no problem with sending her child to an SDA school or allowing her to go to church. I think the book is a great place to start, for her to read or to study together.

[joeb]

Sojourner,

In becoming friends with this woman both you and your wife are witnessing to her. Sharing the love of Christ with her is the most effective witness you can give as love is what Christ is, period. I would let her be the one to ask the questions and open the doors. Once she does that then you can give her reading materials. Until then it's doubtful that any reading materiel you give her will be read.

Pray for her and love her. Isn't that how Christ witnessed? How can you do better than that?

[phkrause]

Excellent points joeb

[Kevin H]

Rabbi Kushner's book is good but Mrs. White's two chapters ¨Why was sin permitted¨ in Patirachs and Prophets and ¨The Orgin of Evil¨in Great controversy and Jim Fleming's lectures on ¨Milk and Honey¨ much better. Roland Hegstad had an excellent little booklet on it as well as Paul Heubach. Then of course there is the children's book ¨Margie asks Why¨

Many are athiest because God did not come to their rescue. However to allow sin to run it's course requires God interviening to be the exception not the rule. God has promised to make all things right at the end. Understanding the issue of the Great Controversy is important and ties together with the truth about how God destroys the wicked and why we are not sticklers for the strict 6,000 years but the ¨about¨ with the conservatives seeing the ¨about¨as rounded to 7,000 to 21,000 years and others even more.

[phkrause]

Good points Kevin

[Kevin H]

I was much more impressed with Rabbi Kushner's book ¨Why good things happen to bad people¨than I expected it to be. But I am even more impressed with his other works, and even though I liked that one book better than I expected to, it is blown away by Fleming's ¨Milk and Honey* theam and Mrs. White's ¨Great Controversy Theam¨I wish I could share them with Rabbi Kushner. Probably all I post on club Adventist is an outgrowth of those two thoughts and the outgrowth of my understanding of hell based on Mrs. White's Great Controversy philosophy.

[Gmany3k]

There are 36 Videos of great interest for any person interested in having their eyes open to the Great Deceptions of the History of our world and so this series can remove much more false understandings of God than anything out there.As many may Know Walter Veith himself was an Atheists of great significance and one thing I would tell the person is they have a good reason to feel and think they way they do/did until they Hear what these Lectures say about the total Onslaught perpetrated against us all By Satan and His Men . http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/c/2/Total_Onslaught_-_English/

they are making a new updated version soon to be out. only 15 DVDs. Blessings to Your Friend she is in Good Hands.

[cardw]

She says that she likes the SDA school system because of the values and moral ethics practiced there. She then went on to say that the reason she is an Atheist is because as a girl she was sexually assaulted for a long period of her life and cried out to God on many occasions for help, the help never came and she suggests that the reason is because He does not exist.

[Sojourner]

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments it is very much appreciated and I confess that I have had the same battle of why God appears to allow these things to happen to people. Yes I can sit down with a Bible and debate theological answers as to why, yet its no real comfort to my atheist friend. The thing is I can see it from her point of view too and its my thought that whilst someone may become an Athiest as a result, God is perhaps not as offended by that as some people think He might be, its my thought that if we are to be the hands and feet of Christ on the earth until he returns then these people need our love and support accordingly and that is what I will try my best to do.

In terms of Rabbi Kushners book, its purpose in my mind is a starting point, He does at least take the question on and provide real answers that have helped many people. I don't know if she will agree to read a religious book, yet there is no harm in trying accompanied by prayer. So I think that will be the next step here to see if she will accept the book and then we can go from there.

Life His Cost, - Thank you for your honesty in your answer, sometimes we dont always have all the answers and that is ok as well.

Gail, - I wish it didn't happen either, I don't think its any accident she sends her child to an SDA school that is very evangelically motivated. Even in the worst darkness, God is always there reaching out to people.

PKrause - Cheers mate, I don't want to come on to strong so might try letting her have a try at the book first and see what happens.

Kevin H, I will look into the titles you mentioned, I dont have all of Kushners books, but I find him very helpful. He is one of the few that will attempt an answer to the very hardest questions which many Christians do not want to touch - interestingly, he is one of the people that Tony Campolo often quotes.

Gmanyk3 I will check that out, thank you!

cardw I have spent a lot of hours scanning titles in our local Christian book shop and researching this whole question over several years and never came up with anything like a real answer until I read Rabbi Kushners book. Its one of the few works that attempts to address this whole issue which few people seem to want to touch sadly enough.

All - If you or someone you know has been affected by sexual abuse as a child, this song by Bjorn Stiggson was written for people recovering from this, it is a very powerful song and speaks of there being no shame in being a new creation in Christ and that there is nothing that can separate us from the love on Christ. Its a very good one to pass on to people struggling in this area - http://youtu.be/Dp2lOI-99To

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

if we are to be the hands and feet of Christ on the earth until he returns then these people need our love and support accordingly and that is what I will try my best to do.

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. "John 15:4-6 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gail]

Of course the big question is the why to the tragedies that we face (nice to see you back, Rich, BTW, after your vacation).

But think about it, if God were to interfere with them, where would He begin and where would He stop before doing away with all free will altogether?

[cardw]

cardw I have spent a lot of hours scanning titles in our local Christian book shop and researching this whole question over several years and never came up with anything like a real answer until I read Rabbi Kushners book. Its one of the few works that attempts to address this whole issue which few people seem to want to touch sadly enough.

[cardw]

But think about it, if God were to interfere with them, where would He begin and where would He stop before doing away with all free will altogether?

The issue of free will is a non starter. You really can't have free will in any state of ignorance, because how can you choose when you have a limited knowledge of your choices and the outcome of those choices?

True free will requires an understanding of the options and what you really are choosing. If I can't determine if this god is a good god or an evil god there isn't a free choice. It's simply a gamble. And since we have no direct evidence of this god no one can really determine without a doubt if this god is even offering a choice or if the complex theologies we come up with aren't simply mental gymnastics we do to try and make sense of a complex world.

[LifeHiscost]

cardw,

If your right and I'm wrong, we both die. However if I'm right and you're wrong, this is what I get, on top of the multiplied hundreds of answers He's already given me in the over 65 years I've trusted Him, not to mention the safety provided when I had yet to know He provided me safety as a result of the prayers of others for me before knowing that needed to be an integral part of getting to know Him.

He's hoping you'll change your mind, but He leaves the choice to you.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."Revelation 21:4 KJV

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."John 3:16 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Hi cardw, it's good to see you back. you are a deep and thorough thinker; and present some powerful dilemmas.

Were you ever a believer, and cried out to God, and got nothing in response - kind of like the woman in the story that started this thread? (not necessarily sexual abuse). I have 2 atheist children that had that experience, and reached the conclusion that there is no God. And they are quite passionate about it - just like you. This is not judgement; just an observation.

I asked this same question a few months' back; and didn't get much of a response. My way of witnessing (so to speak) to atheists is not to. If the question comes up if I am a believer, I say yes and leave it at that. If they are open to discussion, I let them start the discussion.

I kinda see atheism as a religion, where the pure rational and logical is god rather than some unseen, unexplainable being out there somewhere.

I see unexplainable bad things happen a lot. I also see unexplainable good things happen a lot. When God says through Isaiah that "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways", I have to agree. He is an enigma wrapped in mystery. I have no idea why He does what He does (or doesn't do). So I prefer to not press the issue with atheists unless they ask; and I cut off the discussion if it becomes contentious.

[Gail]

No... Even in the Bible Job questions why should we take only good and not bad in this life? Why should we expect to?

If God began to weed out evil and deny a person's choice to inflict it, those who love evil would complain that their liberties are being restricted, in which they would be correct. That is left for civil authorities to handle. And that would also give the impression that I myself would have to be good in order to receive good from God.

But that is not how it works. When peace reigns in the heart then it will stay despite the circumstances.Without God all we have left is whatever our human hearts can imagine and that is the best it gets. That is what we experience in our world now.

Your tune hasn't changed a bit since you were here last, Richard. You have the same arguments which try to dissuade people's faith but they are bitter arguments that cannot touch the peace that is in a believer's heart. Why not everyone has this peace I don't know, but it doesn't lessen the change that I and millions of others have experienced.

It is wrong for a Christian to try to force anyone to believe, but that doesn't make it right for you to try to force others to forsake what they have in their hearts.

If all you have as an agenda is to destroy people's faith in God because you don't have any at this time, then this is not a good place for your rants.there are other places you can go to do that.

[Gail]

Hi cardw, it's good to see you back. you are a deep and thorough thinker; and present some powerful dilemmas.

Were you ever a believer, and cried out to God, and got nothing in response - kind of like the woman in the story that started this thread? (not necessarily sexual abuse). I have 2 atheist children that had that experience, and reached the conclusion that there is no God. And they are quite passionate about it - just like you. This is not judgement; just an observation.

I asked this same question a few months' back; and didn't get much of a response. My way of witnessing (so to speak) to atheists is not to. If the question comes up if I am a believer, I say yes and leave it at that. If they are open to discussion, I let them start the discussion.

I kinda see atheism as a religion, where the pure rational and logical is god rather than some unseen, unexplainable being out there somewhere.

I see unexplainable bad things happen a lot. I also see unexplainable good things happen a lot. When God says through Isaiah that "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways", I have to agree. He is an enigma wrapped in mystery. I have no idea why He does what He does (or doesn't do). So I prefer to not press the issue with atheists unless they ask; and I cut off the discussion if it becomes contentious.

Well-stated, Joe. I am asking Rich to lay off the bitter tone and allow others to have their peace as well.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

He is an enigma wrapped in mystery

Mystery explained! Praise God!

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "John 14:8-10 NKJV

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."1 John 4:16 KJV

"Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and trusted and relied on Me."John 20:29 AMP

God/Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"

Well-stated, Joe. I am asking Rich to lay off the bitter tone and allow others to have their peace as well."

Nevertheless there are sometimes the Holy Spirit asks us to speak plainly as is evidenced by Jesus to one of His most well used Apostles.

Quote:

It is wrong for a Christian to try to force anyone to believe, but that doesn't make it right for you to try to force others to forsake what they have in their hearts.

If all you have as an agenda is to destroy people's faith in God because you don't have any at this time, then this is not a good place for your rants.there are other places you can go to do that.

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."Matthew 16:23 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Sojourner]

Cardw - This is probably for another thread, but the short answer to why I am not an Athiest is along these lines. First off I have read Richard Dawkins and others on the subject and am across the various thoughts for Atheism. I have made an attempt to look carefully at the arguments that they present. Yet what sets me apart from Atheism is that when I get down to the nitty gritty of the argument, Atheism can never answer my questions. All Atheists appear to do is to attack the reasons of religion as opposed to providing any of their own. For example the question of how life began, Judeo Christianity says that God created it all and that He exists outside of time as we know it. Atheism tells me that nothing at all existed and then nothing suddenly exploded and created life without any type of first cause. I do not consider that even close to being an answer to the question. It explains nothing and is contradictory of the laws of science which teach that for there to be life and existence of anything there is always a first cause. When I enquire of Atheism how it is that Science is wrong and they are right, then I either get abused or get an attack on religion, never any actual answers to any of my questions.

All, - The point that Kushner makes comes down to a lot of what Gail is saying, but let me have a go in my own words. Many Christians died in Sep 11, many survived, several have been on the media talking about how they called in sick that day or were not there and God miraculously spared them and so forth. Whether they mean it or not it also implies that those that died were lesser in Gods eyes than they because they were killed and others were not and around and around we go.

The fact is that God has intervened already, - its why Jesus came and an end was put to the struggle of people to win God's favor via works. God will intervene a second time when He returns. Yet as Gail points out, if God smites an abuser now, then there is no end to it and the removal of free will in the process. Its not an easy answer to accept and brings into question theology on what to pray for and the purpose of prayer and so on, yet again it still comes back to God not over riding free will, even the free will of the most heinous of people.

The other point is that we really are the hands and feet of Jesus in the world. Its my understanding that every day a number of people are given medical treatment, fed from hunger and being kept alive and seeing their communities restored by the SDA and most other Christian denominations for no other reason than the benevolence that occurs when people are born again and have that heart for other people. The statistics on the sheer number of orphanages run by Christians, Hospitals keeping people alive and so forth are staggering. The blunt facts are that the Atheist Foundations are not involved in this work, run no hospitals for the sick, keep Orphans alive and so forth. Plenty of philosophical arguments about why their theology is correct, but not willing in practice to put the love of humanity into practice. To me that shows clear evidence of how God takes people from that place and motivates them to change via being born again. Not to say that individual atheists are not benevolent, but as a group of people there is no such thing.

[JoeMo]

Well stated SJ!