Sharing the gospel with an Atheist

[LifeHiscost]

Well stated SJ!

That's the first time there has been such a logical explanation that I have heard, of the reason why the joy of serving Jesus so outstrips the "liberty" of atheism.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[cardw]

Your tune hasn't changed a bit since you were here last, Richard. You have the same arguments which try to dissuade people's faith but they are bitter arguments that cannot touch the peace that is in a believer's heart. Why not everyone has this peace I don't know, but it doesn't lessen the change that I and millions of others have experienced.

It is wrong for a Christian to try to force anyone to believe, but that doesn't make it right for you to try to force others to forsake what they have in their hearts.

If all you have as an agenda is to destroy people's faith in God because you don't have any at this time, then this is not a good place for your rants.there are other places you can go to do that.

You are projecting bitterness because you have to. I am not a believer as a matter of integrity. This idea that I can force people to believe anything is childish. People need to be adults and be responsible for their own beliefs. What it tells me is that my arguments are powerful because they are based in truth and you have to reinterpret them as bitter rather than simply looking at the truth of what I'm posting.

If your belief can't stand up to what I might post then it's must not be a very powerful belief. If I'm not free to express my beliefs and the reasons I have for them then I will leave.

[cardw]

No... Even in the Bible Job questions why should we take only good and not bad in this life? Why should we expect to?

If God began to weed out evil and deny a person's choice to inflict it, those who love evil would complain that their liberties are being restricted, in which they would be correct. That is left for civil authorities to handle. And that would also give the impression that I myself would have to be good in order to receive good from God.

Except when people do evil they restrict the liberties of their victims. Why would god give evil people more rights than innocent people? We don't. We put criminals in prison. We don't let them create havoc and further suffering.

How many times does god have to demonstrate that doing evil things creates suffering. Is the universe that stupid?

This is not a complicated idea.

[LifeHiscost]

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We put criminals in prison.

Considering the fact that the U.S. is on a downward moral spiral, with more people incarcerated than any other nation in the world, plus individual freedoms disappearing faster in the last decade than since the U.S.' beginnings, I don't think the statement above would aid the acceptance of a resume.

God/Jesus saves!

[cardw]

Were you ever a believer, and cried out to God, and got nothing in response - kind of like the woman in the story that started this thread? (not necessarily sexual abuse). I have 2 atheist children that had that experience, and reached the conclusion that there is no God. And they are quite passionate about it - just like you. This is not judgement; just an observation.

[Gail]

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I was a very passionate believer. I have never got a response from any god with any prayer. I am still passionate about what is true. I consider religion to be a con and based on lies. I consider religion to be something we need to grow out of as a human race. I don't believe in the use of force to accomplish this, but I do believe in the power of reason and evidence because I believe these have proven to be the best tools we have for finding truth.

You will have a hard time convincing people who have a heart knowledge. If you love ice cream you don't have to provide a logical reason for that. You can't explain it. But it is real notwithstanding. You know you love ice cream.

[Gail]

Yeah, I'm not sure I have the patience for the arguments, Rich. They didn't accomplish much true last time but just made for a lot of arguing. You can name it censorship or whatever you will but the end will be the same- another vacation for you.

[cardw]

Yeah, I'm not sure I have the patience for the arguments, Rich. They didn't accomplish much true last time but just made for a lot of arguing. You can name it censorship or whatever you will but the end will be the same- another vacation for you.

Ok, I guess I will leave.

[Aliensanctuary]

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Ok, I guess I will leave.

Not so fast, cardw.

We're all trapped in a cesspool of a world, not because of some grand cesspool design, but because of the selfish choices of our forefathers, all the way back to the first humans.

Tragic as it is, intensely selfish humans will harm and kill others and steal their stuff without a care for the wake of blood and tears and suffering they create. As the Good Book states, humans chose their master long ago and infected themselves with the Virus of Evil. Evil is selfishness and selfishness is evil. There is no cure except to submit to our Creator.

Since the world has chosen its cruel master over the good one, we shouldn't blame our Creator when bad things happen, rather, we must blame the Evil One. Do some want the Creator to return here to be the policeman of the world and vaporize all who harm others, striking fear into all who dare transgress his commandments? That will indeed take place, but at the proper time. Until then, everyone must suffer at the hands of the servants of the Evil One. Although the things that happen in this life seem important to us, everything that causes evil will be swept away and forgotten forever in the next life.

Though evil men surround us and hurt our women and little children we must fix our sights, not on this garbage-can-of-a-world, but on the Kingdom of the Stars and the goodness of our Creator. He will delete all memories of evil from those he chooses to become members of his kingdom. He will take care of all of his servants, keeping them well-fed, healthy, and happy in exchange for their labor.

The Kingdom of YHVH, then, is more like a business with a Code of Ethics to protect its members from harming each other. Those who refuse to accept his rule will, unfortunately, experience a quick, fiery death which includes the destruction of their life records, a permanent, hopeless death.

So cardw, you and others can blame the Creator, even though you/they don't believe in him, and pick through the world's garbage piled at our feet, while others, filled with hope, look to the stars for deliverance from the cruelty and injustice that surrounds us.

In the end, every wrong will be made right, every wound will be healed, and everything evil that ever happened will be forgotten.

Who could refuse to join the good side and make this world a little better place by being helpful to others? The atheists can do their God-bashing, but it's not likely to help anyone. Even though they believe Christ was only a man, they can still study his life and his acts of healing and kindness. He was teaching us what his Kingdom will be like.

[JoeMo]

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to simply chock it up to god's mysterious ways wouldn't be truthful for me.

To quote Pilate, "What is truth?" You were burned by Adventism? Join the club. I have had some bitter experiences with Adventism; but then Adventists are people; not God. God is God; not a person. Looking back, He has mitigated more problems in my life than He has caused. Too bad you haven't had a similar experience. Atheism might be a logical choice for those who haven't experienced the divine,; but trust in the Almighty works best for me. Bitterness about others who choose to believe in the divine is a choice made on attitude; not experience. There are atheists who don't go out of their ways to make believers in the divine (be they Christians or pagan) look look like morons. There are also believers out there than don't go out of their way to make atheists look like morons; but would rather have a meaningful dialog than an argument.

Maybe you don't see the supernatural at work cuz you don't look for it. It is all around you. There is a saying - "If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it." The inverse is also true - "If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it."

[Gregory Matthews]

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If your belief can't stand up to what I might post then it's must not be a very powerful belief. If I'm not free to express my beliefs and the reasons I have for them then I will leave.

cardw: You are welcome here in this forum. You can post your beliefs and engage with people to whatever extent they wish to engage you. It is likely that some will wish to engage you and others will not.

But, in the end, the critical issue will not be your beliefs. It will be how you relate to people who read and post here.

M.T. Cross probably holds many of the beliefs that you hold. M.T. Cross freely posts his beliefs and engages in conversations with some. M.T. Cross is welcomed here. But, look at the manner in which M.T. engages and relates to us in this forum.

It can be done. It will be your choice as to how your engage and relate to us.

[Gail]

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If your belief can't stand up to what I might post then it's must not be a very powerful belief. If I'm not free to express my beliefs and the reasons I have for them then I will leave.

cardw: You are welcome here in this forum. You can post your beliefs and engage with people to whatever extent they wish to engage you. It is likely that some will wish to engage you and others will not.

But, in the end, the critical issue will not be your beliefs. It will be how you relate to people who read and post here.

M.T. Cross probably holds many of the beliefs that you hold. M.T. Cross freely posts his beliefs and engages in conversations with some. M.T. Cross is welcomed here. But, look at the manner in which M.T. engages and relates to us in this forum.

It can be done. It will be your choice as to how your engage and relate to us.

Good thoughts, Gregory- and the same has crossed my mind. EmptyCross has endeared himself to many here simply because of how he handles himself and how he relates to others.

[JoeMo]

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EmptyCross has endeared himself to many here simply because of how he handles himself and how he relates to others.

I couldn't agree more. He is totally honest and transparent without being brutally so. Even in his harshest posts (if anything he posts can be considered "harsh"), he sprinkles in humor and respect. Not bad for a "resident pagan"!

A few of us "Christians" could learn a lot from him by following his example.

[LifeHiscost]

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Yes, it is from "Life Is Beautiful" - it's a really good movie. Just have a box of tissues handy when you watch.

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Buon giorno, Principessa!

Maybe we could take your example, Gail. Did this movie have a telling affect on how you handle your relationship with others, especially as it might apply to the subject of this thread at this time? It sounds intriguing to me.

God bless! Jesus saves!

[cardw]

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If your belief can't stand up to what I might post then it's must not be a very powerful belief. If I'm not free to express my beliefs and the reasons I have for them then I will leave.

cardw: You are welcome here in this forum. You can post your beliefs and engage with people to whatever extent they wish to engage you. It is likely that some will wish to engage you and others will not.

But, in the end, the critical issue will not be your beliefs. It will be how you relate to people who read and post here.

M.T. Cross probably holds many of the beliefs that you hold. M.T. Cross freely posts his beliefs and engages in conversations with some. M.T. Cross is welcomed here. But, look at the manner in which M.T. engages and relates to us in this forum.

It can be done. It will be your choice as to how your engage and relate to us.

In this particular dialog maybe you can point out where I am expressing bitterness?

There needs to be some responsibility on the listener to not project something that isn't there.

I can list quite a few statements that are really offensive to me in this particular dialog. I don't cry foul or ask people to "take a vacation." I present my evidence and reasons. If someone doesn't agree I hold no power over them or resentment. As far as I can tell I have only posted why particular positions don't make sense. It seems like some here perceive themselves as victims simply because I post reasons for my disagreement.

I find it morally reprehensible to believe in a god who would stand by when this same god has the power to intervene. It is my opinion that the freedom of choice apologetic is a shallow argument. The adult thing to do would be to present why that isn't a shallow argument instead of crying foul.

To illustrate the disparity I would like to point out that a militant Christian is one who might bomb an abortion clinic or kill an abortion doctor or a militant Muslim might be one who blows themselves up, but militant atheists are labelled militant because they wrote a book.

I'm pretty mild compared to the general dialog out there. I would appreciate it if people would stop labeling my disagreement as bitterness. To me, "being nice", isn't the loving thing to do because at it's core it's dishonest.

Adults have conversations without taking things personally and we set our ego aside as best as we can. I think religion makes people stay children and creates a victim mentality.

I'm not interested in being nice for the sake of watering down what I have good reasons for thinking is harmful. I don't expect everyone to like it or everyone to agree, but if what I say, when I am simply being honest, is going to be labelled as bitter and regulated then I'm not really interested in having a conversation in that environment, particularly when I have plenty of places to have those types of conversations.

You are certainly free to set up what ever rules you want, but if you want my participation I'm not willing to abide by what I consider to be a dishonest policy.

And with no bitterness what-so-ever I will willingly remove myself from participation.

[cardw]

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to simply chock it up to god's mysterious ways wouldn't be truthful for me.

To quote Pilate, "What is truth?" You were burned by Adventism? Join the club. I have had some bitter experiences with Adventism; but then Adventists are people; not God. God is God; not a person. Looking back, He has mitigated more problems in my life than He has caused. Too bad you haven't had a similar experience.

[Samie]

I have had many years to evaluate the evidence for the god described in the Bible. I have found none.

So, how were you able to evaluate for many years the NON-EXISTENT evidence? Why did it take you many years to evaluate NOTHING?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I have had many years to evaluate the evidence for the god described in the Bible. I have found none.

So, how were you able to evaluate for many years the NON-EXISTENT evidence? Why did it take you many years to evaluate NOTHING?

And how many years have you been able to evaluate for the non existence of Zeus or Thor? Both of these were vigorously believed in for many years by millions of people.

[Samie]

I have had many years to evaluate the evidence for the god described in the Bible. I have found none.

[Gail]

I'm not interested in being nice for the sake of watering down what I have good reasons for thinking is harmful. I don't expect everyone to like it or everyone to agree, but if what I say, when I am simply being honest, is going to be labelled as bitter and regulated then I'm not really interested in having a conversation in that environment, particularly when I have plenty of places to have those types of conversations.

Thanks for acknowledging that. I will respect your choice to not participate.