People that have never heard of Jesus?

[Sojourner]

Suppose we take a man who is a good man who lived in Japan prior to Christianity being preached in Japan, this man belongs to the Religion of Shintoism.

Reading through the SDA Doctrine of Investigative Judgement I am no clearer on how this man is dealt with via the Judgment Process? - He does not have the blood of Jesus covering his sin, so how is he dealt with by God via the judgement process?

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"24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)"

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17 NKJV

God charges people with sin who knowingly violate what they know to be right.

Quote:

Jesus said to them, "if you were blind, you would have not sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains. John 9:41 NKJV

In the eyes of God, people who are spiritually blind are not charged with sins on which they are spiritually blind.

Jesus said:

Quote:

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. John 15:22 NKJV

See comment after John 9:41.

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. . . sin is lawlessness. I John 34b NKJV

The essence of sin is lawlessness which is a knowing rebellion against the known will of God.

The work of the Holy Spirit is to: a) convict the entire world, everyone of sin. convict every person of righteousness. c) convict every person of judgment. f) Guide all into truth. e) tell you of things to come. f) glorify God/Jesus.

Folks outside of a willing rejection of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, God dos not charge one with sin. That does not mean that a person has not sinned. It simply means that God does not charge that person with sin. The reason is that those sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Therefore, the Shinto person who has been faithful to what is known and is not in rebellion against the conviction of the Holy Spirit is covered by the blood of Christ who in the plan of salvation provided for exactly this.

Sojourner said:

Quote:

He does not have the blood of Jesus covering his sin,. . .

Wrong. Carefully read Romans 5.

[JoeMo]

An "alternative" viewpoint that I find to be reasonable is that all whoever lived at any time will have an opportunity to make an informed, intelligent decision for or against God and His Kingdom before they are granted eternal life or eternal oblivion. Rather than repeat what has been discussed in this forum previously, see prophecyviewpoint.org.

[8thdaypriest]

Spoken to

Ephesians 2:11-12 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NKJ)

NO HOPE. That kinda says it.

The morning/evening continual burnt offering covered sins of ignorance. Those sins are covered by the blood of Christ UNTIL those persons learn of God and His ways.

It comes down to the justice of God.

Why would He give a free pass into the kingdom to someone who died in ignorance? (The person could have died as a child, or been mentally handicapped, or could have been born at a time, or in a place where the God of the Bible was unknown.)

That would mean that He would have to manipulate the mind of that individual to ensure that individuals continued compatibility with the Law of His Kingdom. The person did NOT give permission for this manipulation.

If the LORD was going to manipulate minds, then He should have done it in the first place to Adam/Eve and skipped all this MESS!

My belief is that those who knowingly resisted the Spirit of God during their lives on earth will be resurrected to face judgment at the Second Coming. (See Daniel 12:2-3). They will then die either by the brightness of His coming, or by the plagues, and will NOT be raised again - ever.

Those who lived in ignorance - will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead" AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. They will be taught by the priesthood (the redeemed from the first resurrection). They will then choose whom they will serve.

Most will rebel - and that will be Gog/Magog. But many will come to know "His ways", and will come into the kingdom of God.

I believe that our God is JUST.

His justice demands that every human being must CHOOSE, and that choice must be TESTED. Works (behavior - demonstrating choice) will determine final citizenship, or final annihilation.

I published a book titled "The 8th Day" in Dec. of 2012. The full text of that book is available to read at my website: prophecyviewpoint.com.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

NO HOPE. That kinda says it.

Yes, the salvation that Christ provided for us is beyond hope as hope is based upon merit of which we have none. Salvation is all in Christ and of Christ.

[Samie]

Suppose we take a man who is a good man who lived in Japan prior to Christianity being preached in Japan, this man belongs to the Religion of Shintoism.

Reading through the SDA Doctrine of Investigative Judgement I am no clearer on how this man is dealt with via the Judgment Process? - He does not have the blood of Jesus covering his sin, so how is he dealt with by God via the judgement process?

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...

[Samie]

Spoken to

Ephesians 2:11-12 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NKJ)

NO HOPE. That kinda says it.

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

I cannot agree with your position. It would mean that unless a person knowingly committed rebellion against the LORD without repentance, he/she would be made immortal and would be admitted into the final Kingdom of God. All without the need for any conscious CHOICE on his/her part.

There would be nothing or him/her to overcome. Christ would have done all the overcoming.

I can't believe that. Choice is everything.

"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve."

So then why would John have written that only overcomers would not be blotted out of the Book of Life?

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

I write and post for truth's sake, whether people agree or not, and at the same time open for new light to come.

In all my posts, CHOICE is EVER-PRESENT. Only, we differ in the timeline where CHOICE gets exercised.

For you, CHOICE comes BEFORE a person is admitted into the family of God. Whether you agree or not, putting CHOICE before entry into God's family, redounds to a works-based salvation, for UNLESS a person CHOOSES to, he cannot be part of God's family, he cannot be part of the Body of Christ. This is opposite to what Jesus Himself said, because you are in fact saying that while separate from Christ we can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him Who said man can do NOTHING while separate from Him (John 15:4,5).

For me, CHOICE comes AFTER. God wrote down our names first in the book of life. Christ attached us to Himself first on the cross. Attached to Him Who is our strength to overcome evil with good, we can NOW, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, do everything in accord with what God dynamically writes in our hearts and minds.

We don't work our way to heaven because we are already heaven-bound, having our names written in the book of life. UNLESS Christ Himself blots out our names from the book of life, effectively severing us from being part of His body for non-overcoming evil with good, our names stay there. We can choose to become overcomers or not. If in the final analysis one is found to be a non-overcomer, he has no one else to blame but himself because it is not a question of INABILITY but REFUSAL to overcome.

Please remember, I had already posted, it is in this lifetime where we make our DECISION for our eternal destiny.

And DECISION is a product of CHOICE.

In Christ,

Samie

[Sojourner]

First off, thank you all for your responses to this query, its something that years ago I would have readily agreed that God would simply judge a person on how they might have responded to the leading of the Holy Spirit towards God the Father. The problem that I am struggling with comes from learning about the actual judgement process as described in the SDA doctrine above. Let me point out that I agree with that doctrine however and have no issue with that.

What I am struggling with is this, if it is so that the Holy Spirit can convict someone to be a good person and have a heart open to God the Father, why did God then need to send Jesus Christ to actually die for people in the first place if there still exists today a second way of Salvation? Whilst I am keen to see how a person may reach God that has never heard of Jesus, it seems to me bewildering in a way that a second way of salvation could exist post the cross of calvary. The question could then be raised for western people in that do they have an out clause in the judgement process in that they may be familiar with Christianity and churches on street corners and so forth, but have no understanding of theology from which to make a decision?

At this stage it seems to be a question that causes me more questions as opposed to answers!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The problem that I am struggling with comes from learning about the actual judgement process as described in the SDA doctrine above.

You may or may not understand SDA doctrine.

Regardless, Biblical doctrine trumps SDA doctrine in any conflict. And, the conflict may only be apparent. it may not be real?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I believe that our God is JUST.

His justice demands that every human being must CHOOSE, and that choice must be TESTED.

Ahh! But those who have not the full evidence of information from the Word are covered by this promise below.

"Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”" Luke 23:34 NKJV

If Jesus could make this request of the Father, for those who were driving the nails into His body, do you not think there are others who will also receive that same mercy?

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."John 10:16 NKJV

"The sun shall be turned into darkness,

And the moon into blood,

Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

And it shall come to pass

That whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Shall be saved.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,

As the Lord has said,

Among the remnant whom the Lord calls."Joel 2:31-32 NKJV

"So speak and so act as [people should] who are to be judged under the law of liberty [the moral instruction given by Christ, especially about love].

For to him who has shown no mercy the judgment [will be] merciless, but mercy [full of glad confidence] exults victoriously over judgment.

What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?

If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,

And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)."James 2:12-17 AMP Parenthesis brackets theirs' LHC

I'm satisfied there are many who have acted morally upright while not having full knowledge of Jesus on this earth nor necessarily belonged to any religious organization, when at last they meet Jesus for the first time at the first resurrection, will say to Him, "I have waited for so long to meet You."

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Those who lived in ignorance - will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead" AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. They will be taught by the priesthood (the redeemed from the first resurrection). They will then choose whom they will serve.

Most will rebel - and that will be Gog/Magog. But many will come to know "His ways", and will come into the kingdom of God.

I believe that our God is JUST.

His justice demands that every human being must CHOOSE, and that choice must be TESTED. Works (behavior - demonstrating choice) will determine final citizenship, or final annihilation.

Anyone can say the magic words, "I love Jesus", and even believe that they will be accepted into the Kingdom of YHVH because they said the magic words. Like 8th Day has indicated, after the resurrection, unnumbered billions of people who never understood or even heard of the Kingdom of YHVH will have it all clearly explained to them. After that, they can make an informed choice as to whose mark they will receive to indicate who their chosen master is, YHVH, or Satan. Sadly, the Kingdom of Pleasure and Wickedness will look really good to those only wanting to participate in evil practices. Evil is, after all, pure selfishness, while goodness is purity, and self-sacrifice to benefit others.

The time, thought, and money we spend on things today could very well impact the choices we make after the resurrection when we are exposed to the entrance requirements of YHVH's Kingdom of Light. Magic words are not the ticket to the Kingdom of YHVH...we are picked...according to what we have said and done to others.

[Samie]

...

What I am struggling with is this, if it is so that the Holy Spirit can convict someone to be a good person and have a heart open to God the Father, why did God then need to send Jesus Christ to actually die for people in the first place if there still exists today a second way of Salvation? ...

There is no 2nd way of salvation. Me thinks no one in this thread had ever hinted at a 2nd way. There is only one way, the ONLY WAY - our Lord Jesus Christ. This had been the plan BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5)!

Sin, the payment for which is death of the sinner (Rom 6:23), separates man from God (Isa 59:2). The sinner may PAY for his own sin committed by dying for his own sin the very first time he commits sin, but that would be the eternal end for him having died separate from God. So God made a very special way so that the sinner He loves may be able to "pay" for his sin God hates and at the same time be given another shot at eternal life.

On the cross, God, through Christ, fashioned humanity into the Body of His Son, thus creating a New Man, Jesus the Head, Humanity the Body, making us members of the family of God (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, His Body died likewise effectively paying for all sins - past, present, future (2 Cor 5:14,15; Col 2:13, 14). When the Head resurrected, the Body resurrected together with Him (Eph 2:4-6), born again into a living hope of eternal life (1 Pet 1:3). Now that humanity is attached to the Body of His Son, they can now, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13), live lives patterned after what God had written in each of their hearts and minds (Heb 10:16,17). They can choose to overcome evil with good, or, be overcome with evil (Rom 12:21). Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5), where our names were written from the foundation of the world.

When Christ returns to reward every man according to what each has done, He will reward those whose names remained in the book of life with life eternal and usher them to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb. All others will be made to suffer the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues, and finally thrown into the lake of fire.

[Gregory Matthews]

Life: In the past I have taken you to task for simply quoting Scripture and not saying anything about the cited scripture..

I acknowledge that you are now often making simple, brief, statements about the scripture that you cite.

I appreciate that. I find it helps me to understand why you use the Scripture and what you believe it means. In understanding you, I find that I often agree with you.

Thanks for doing so.

[JoeMo]

I agree with those posting that God's justice and mercy demands that He offer all men an equal opportunity at joining the Kingdom of God. We then have a CHOICE to make - do we accept Jesus as King of the Universe, or do we take satan as the king of this world? Whether the names are written in the Book of Life from all eternity (to be struck only upon rejection of the gospel) or entered only upon acceptance doesn't change the results - the timing of this activity is simply a legal transaction. All who love the Father and Son and want to be part of His Kingdom will be; and they will be there only by the blood of Christ spilled on their behalf; and the mercy and love of the Father.

[8thdaypriest]

Noah was not created "on the ship". He was told to "get on the ship". He invited EVERYONE else to "get on the ship" but only 8 CHOSE to "get on board".

Choosing to get on the ship meant life. Noah preached for 100 years. I am sure that almost every person heard about the boat and the God of Noah. They could not claim ignorance. Yet there WERE many infants and young children who were drowned. They had NO CHOICE. I believe these will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to continue their physical mortal lives, and then choose.

The ship represents Christ.

The LORD said to Israel, "Choose life" (Deut. 30:19).

John the baptist said "Repent." To repent (turn around) one must CHOOSE.

Jesus said, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luk 13:3 NKJ).

Satan was allowed to present His arguments (deceptions), and God (thru Christ the Mediator) presents His offer of forgiveness/healing/life. But every man and woman must CHOOSE.

Jesus said, "Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and FEW there be that find it." (Matt. 7:14).

I like to call the Book of Life, "The Book of Eternal Life", because that's what it is.

I believe that Adam's name was entered into THAT book when He entered into Covenant with God thru the offering of the first lamb sacrifice. Down thru the years, many from different racial backgrounds found faith in the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob. But most died in ignorance.

Bro. Samie,

You seem to be saying that one is born ON the ship. You will NOT be lost unless you jump out of the boat. That is not my understanding.

Because He fulfilled EVERY requirement of the first covenant, Christ will legally be given "dominion" over the earth. With the dominion of earth (and everything belonging to the earth - including all humans) Christ is given the authority to judge humans, and to decide which humans He will have in His Kingdom and which He will not. The Book of Life IS the "Lamb's Book".

He DIED to regain the lost dominion - for humankind.

He receives that "dominion" at the final judgment scene of Daniel 7:14. The timing places that final scene AFTER the "little horn" on the "terrible beast" persecutes the people of God for 3.5 times, 1260 days.

Christ does NOT YET have the dominion of the whole earth. Rev. 11:15 places this event at the 7th trumpet.

He has been made "head of the church - his body". The church is "his body". The congregation includes those who have entered into covenant. In the OT circumcision was "the sign" of covenant, and the sacrifice was a "blood covenant". Also the elements of the grain, the wine, the animal, and salt represented a "meal covenant" and a "salt covenant". Baptism is "the sign" of the entry into the "New Covenant".

Peter said, ""Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; (Act 2:38 NKJ). The assumption would be that it they did NOT repent, and were NOT baptized in the name of Christ - they would NOT partake of His coming Kingdom.

Just now - we have His promise that we will be (future) included in His Kingdom. In THAT SENSE only, you could say that the kingdom of God HAS COME - for those who have accepted the promise in Christ. It is a promise - not yet a reality. We see through a glass darkly - by faith.

There is a study at my website titled "The Test - Why Did Jesus Die?" It is under a button titled "Dominion". That study may answer some questions.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Rachel,

[Samie]

...

The ship represents Christ.

...

Bro. Samie,

You seem to be saying that one is born ON the ship. You will NOT be lost unless you jump out of the boat. That is not my understanding.

[LifeHiscost]

Life: In the past I have taken you to task for simply quoting Scripture and not saying anything about the cited scripture..

I acknowledge that you are now often making simple, brief, statements about the scripture that you cite.

I appreciate that. I find it helps me to understand why you use the Scripture and what you believe it means. In understanding you, I find that I often agree with you.

Thanks for doing so.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

No one is able to snatch us out of the Father's and the Son's hands. We cannot snatch ourselves out of their hands.

I think we are the only ones who can snatch ourselves out of God's hands. God honors our free will supremely. If we don't want to be part of His Kingdom, He will not drag us into it kicking and screaming

Quote:

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice that the only thing missing from this quote is "ourselves". Yes, we are all predestined for salvation; but we can CHOOSE to reject it or CHOOSE to embrace it. It's up to us. Even if we CHOOSE to reject it, God is always there to take us back if we CHOOSE to change our mind (repent).

I won't wast space by quoting Ezek. 18; but it pretty much tells the story of our choices.

[8thdaypriest]

JoeMo

LIKE!

There is a study on my website "Once Saved - Always Saved, Is this Our Security?" It is under the "Doctrinal Studies" button.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Quote:

No one is able to snatch us out of the Father's and the Son's hands. We cannot snatch ourselves out of their hands.

I think we are the only ones who can snatch ourselves out of God's hands. God honors our free will supremely. If we don't want to be part of His Kingdom, He will not drag us into it kicking and screaming.

...

Yes, because Christ Himself will BLOT our names from the book of life, effectively severing us from being part of His Body.

A body part CANNOT of its own sever itself from the body.

[BobRyan]

[

Most preachers teach that CHOOSING Christ comes BEFORE one is attached to Christ. But they cannot harmonize that with Christ's own words that separate from Him man can do NOTHING spiritually good. And the act of choosing Christ is a good act. Believing in Christ is a good act. Repenting is a good act. IF we can do these while separate from Christ, then Christ told a lie? But we are more than sure that Christ NEVER told a lie.

Actually that is just a funny sort of word game that some Calvinists like to play. But it ends poorly because it makes God his own "gospel saboteur" -- being the cause and the blame for all of his "o what more could I have done than I have done?...why will you die?" lament in scripture.

They accuse God of engaging in some sort of "arbitrary selection" game - instead of "so loving the WORLD that He gave" and "not being willing that any should perish" as the Bible says.

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

Hi Bob;

The ERROR of the Calvinists is what you call "arbitrary selection".

Scriptures tell us God has chosen us ALL - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - with NO ONE exempted nor left out and wrote our names in the book of life, the registry of heaven, from the foundation of the world.

We don't work our way to heaven. With our names already in the registry of heaven, we are heaven-bound UNLESS our names are blotted out for non-overcoming evil with good.