613 Commandments

[8thdaypriest]

I have been making my way thru the 613 Commandments. You can find them on several different Jewish/Rabbinic websites.

I've been trying to figure out which ones remain under the New Covenant, and which ones are definitely "obsolete".

I've also been looking up the references given for each one to see what the written word has to say.

Most folks do not understand about the Oral Torah. The Pharisees taught that Moses gave many laws or explanations of laws orally. Those were passed down orally. (You can see the potential for abuse.) The most important thing is that the Rabbis (then and today) teach that the Oral Torah supersedes the written.

The Oral Law was written down as the Talmud, because the surviving Rabbis feared it would be lost.

Here is an example:

In the Talmud it is forbidden to castrate ANY animal. That would mean we could not neuter our pets. But if you look it up in the written Torah - it just says that any animal offered for sacrifice to Yahweh cannot have been neutered.

You see how they "changed" some things.

I do believe that the system of animal sacrifices thru the Aaronic priesthood was rendered "obsolete" when the priesthood was "changed" to the Melchizedek line.

I think the dietary laws just made good sense - for health.

Same for NOT having sex during a woman's menstrual period.

Same for separation of those with contagious diseases.

I would like to hear comments from you, especially on those "changes" from Written Torah to Talmud.

What is retained (or repeated) in the New Covenant?

What about the special items of clothing?

What about restoring five fold what one has knowingly stolen?

This topic may be too big, but I'd like to know if any of you have done your own research.

Thanks much.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Aliensanctuary]

These many, many commandments are based on underlying principles that we may not yet understand. Maybe most of them will be discarded or corrected in the Restored Kingdom of YHVH, maybe not. With YHVH's laws programmed into our minds, we would have no problem obeying them, and would not even question them.

The New Covenant is, basically, having the rules and regulations of YHVH programmed into us so that we cannot transgress them. The Old Covenant, or Contract, did not work because humans are unable to overcome their selfishness, while the New Contract will work because humans will have their sense of self, selfishness, that is, removed. This will result in a much deeper, telepathic connection with our Creator. Before we ask for something we need, he has already read our minds and will supply us with the thing needed.

[8thdaypriest]

I didn't know if many here at the forum would want to comment on this thread.

I do NOT believe that we will not be ABLE to transgress, once we are in the Kingdom of YHVH. I believe that we will not transgress (rebel) against the revealed will of our God BECAUSE we have all experienced the pain that results from transgression. And we have witnessed the pain - the collateral damage - to innocent humans and animals. We KNOW that even a small transgression results in an imbalance that grows to monumental proportions. We will not be tempted to rebel BECAUSE we KNOW what it is like to fall into the abyss of chaos and pain.

What I wanted to do in this thread was to explore the laws under the Sinai Covenant, looking for how those things are brought into the New Covenant.

SIGNS AND SYMBOLS, for instance. Israelites were to weave borders of blue into their garments. These were a sign of their identity as worshipers of YHVH. What is the "sign" today? Is there a sign today??

What about THE SOCIAL WELFARE SYSTEM?

Serving as a servant for six years, to pay off debt.

Leaving the corners of your field for the poor to harvest.

Not making a second pass over your fruit trees, or grapevines when you harvest. Leaving the rest to the poor.

Inviting the Levite, the orphan, the widow, the poor to your feast at Jerusalem.

Saving one third of your tithe for the poor.

How do we live out these commands today??

LAWS OF INHERITANCE:

Personally - I believe that our inheritance is NOW in Christ. He is the ONLY ONE who fulfilled the terms of the Sinai Covenant, therefore HE will receive the LAND. We will receive our inheritance through HIM.

WAR

How about the command to exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel? (Deut. 20:17)

I would say that Christ will fulfill this command.

Same with the command to destroy the seed of Amalek (Deut. 25:19).

Christ said "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them..." He didn't say "all except Amalek".

That alone should tell us that the first covenant (with its commands) is obsolete.

It was a prophecy of what will be done by Christ, both in us and for us.

Happy Sabbath

[Bert]

Just a quick reply to your thread in regards to the 613 commandments in the Torah contained in the first covenant.

The first covenant provided the sacrificial system and all of its symbolisms and rituals, as well as the laws that governed the conduct and lives of the children of Israel. This covenant was fulfilled when Christ died on the Cross, for the sacrifice of animals was no longer needed as a means of the remission of sins because Christ's blood shed on our behalf provides for the remission of our sins...past, present and future. Only one requirement is placed on us...asking for forgiveness when we err.

The Ten Commandments are part of the 613 commandments in the Torah, but they are part of the new covenant for they involve God's laws for the conduct of all mankind, not just the Jews, both back then and today as well. They are considered God's law and were placed inside the ark. The other commandments, or laws, pertaining to the sacrifical rituals and other laws that governed the theocratic state of Israel, were written on scrolls by Moses and placed BESIDE the ark, signifying their temporary status versus the permanency of God's law, written on stone and placed inside the ark.

[Ron Amnsn]

The Ten Commandments are part of the 613 commandments in the Torah, but they are part of the new covenant for they involve God's laws for the conduct of all mankind, not just the Jews, both back then and today as well. They are considered God's law and were placed inside the ark. The other commandments, or laws, pertaining to the sacrifical rituals and other laws that governed the theocratic state of Israel, were written on scrolls by Moses and placed BESIDE the ark, signifying their temporary status versus the permanency of God's law, written on stone and placed inside the ark.

Hello Bert,

It's true that the "10 Commandments" were written in stone and placed inside the Ark of the Covenant while the rest of God's commandments were written on a scroll and placed beside the Ark. The Scriptures tell us that. However, where in Scripture does it tell us that the placement of the scroll beside the Ark of the Covenant signifies that everything written in the scroll was temporary? That idea seems to be merely man-made tradition.

[Bert]

Quote:

Hello Bert,

It's true that the "10 Commandments" were written in stone and placed inside the Ark of the Covenant while the rest of God's commandments were written on a scroll and placed beside the Ark. The Scriptures tell us that. However, where in Scripture does it tell us that the placement of the scroll beside the Ark of the Covenant signifies that everything written in the scroll was temporary? That idea seems to be merely man-made tradition. [/quote']

It is a logical conclusion because the 'law of Moses' that was written on a scroll pertains in most part to the Jews, and does not affect Gentiles. Also, that part of the 'law of Moses' that provided for the sacrificial rituals of animal sacrifice was symbolically fulfilled when Christ died on the cross, thus abolishing the animal sacrifice as being no longer necessary, for we are covered by Christ's blood now...not any animal sacrificial ritual. Hebrews 10 provides a good explanation of Christ's sacrifice that replaced the earthly ritual of animal sacrifices.

Also, in Revelation 11:19 it says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." No mention in John's vision of the ark in the heavenly temple having a scroll beside it.

God bless,

Bert

[phkrause]

Excellent points Bert

[8thdaypriest]

I'm NOT saying that every one of the 613 is carried over into the New Covenant.

I'm wanting to look at the principles involved in each commandment, and how that principle IS, or IS NOT, carried into the New Covenant.

How about the command which forbade charging interest of fellow Israelites?

Did you know that Muslims actually follow this one?

The Rabbis teach that honoring one who knows Torah (like a Rabi) is the same as honoring Yahweh.

I do NOT agree with that one.

RC

[Ron Amnsn]

However, where in Scripture does it tell us that the placement of the scroll beside the Ark of the Covenant signifies that everything written in the scroll was temporary? That idea seems to be merely man-made tradition.

[Ron Amnsn]

Also, that part of the 'law of Moses' that provided for the sacrificial rituals of animal sacrifice was symbolically fulfilled when Christ died on the cross, thus abolishing the animal sacrifice as being no longer necessary, for we are covered by Christ's blood now...not any animal sacrificial ritual. Hebrews 10 provides a good explanation of Christ's sacrifice that replaced the earthly ritual of animal sacrifices.

Where does Scripture say that when the sacrifices were "symbolically fulfilled" that God's people were supposed to stop following God's instructions regarding animal sacrifices?

Where does it say that when Messiah "symbolically fulfilled" the sacrifices, the Levites would lose their livelihood and their portion of the Temple sacrifices that God had promised them "throughout their generations" as their inheritance in lieu of tribal lands in Israel?

As far as I can find, this is just another man-made tradition. Hebrews 10 does say that the sacrifice of Jesus was a better and more effectual sacrifice than the animal sacrifices. But it doesn't say that people were no longer to follow God's instructions regarding sacrifices.

When God gave the Israelites the Passover, it was a commemorative celebration as well as a prophetic event. The original Passover had already been literally fulfilled in Egypt, yet God instructed the Israelites to continue to celebrate the Passover as a memorial of what God had already accomplished. The same with the weekly Sabbath. God had already "fulfilled" the seven days of Creation and had already rested symbolically and in actuality, yet God still instructed the Israelites to rest each Sabbath as a reminder.

The advent and death of Messiah to "fulfill" the plan of God (both symbolically and in actuality) did not somehow catch God by surprise. Before God gave the Law of Moses He knew that Messiah would come and die, yet God still told the Israelites how he wanted to be worshiped "throughout your generations", rather than telling them how he wanted to be worshiped "until Messiah fulfills these things".

[Ron Amnsn]

Also, in Revelation 11:19 it says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." No mention in John's vision of the ark in the heavenly temple having a scroll beside it.

To which covenant does the Ark of the Covenant pertain?

With whom was that covenant made?

Is that covenant obsolete in Revelation 11:19?

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Ron,

I really wrestled with the question regarding a "New" (not just renewed) Covenant. It is just my personal interpretation, but I believe the "first covenant" WAS rendered obsolete when Yeshua died.

The Sinai Covenant was a marriage covenant. The LORD was betrothed to Israel (Jer. 2:1-3, Jer. 3:14, Jer. 31:32).

He divorced the 10 Northern tribes. He gave her a "certificate of divorce" and sent her away. (Jer. 3:8 and others).

The remaining 2 tribes were widowed, when they murdered the LORD Yeshua - their betrothed.

Hebrews 8:7-13 definitely refers to a "second" covenant.

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, (this wording matches the divorce law) He says: ‘Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.’”

Romans 7:1 “Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead” (NAS).

An Israelite could not marry his former wife, whom he had divorced. A high priest could not marry a former harlot, a woman defiled by idolatry, a widow, or a divorced woman. Israel was ALL OF THESE.

How then can Yeshua marry Israel? Only if He blots out the record of her former life. She must be restored to virginal status. This is - I believe - is just what is described in the 144,000.

There MUST be a "NEW" marriage covenant.

The LORD/LAMB will marry the New Jerusalem with her citizens.

We are now betrothed. The consummation has not yet come.

But we are betrothed by a "new" marriage covenant.

Yes - the New Covenant contains many elements from the "first" or Sinai Covenant, but there are also some differences.

Under the "first" covenant, Israel was to kill every descendant of Amalek. Under the New Covenant, we are to "teach ALL nations, baptizing them".

We can commemorate the Feasts, but we cannot (and I believe never will) KEEP them in the way they were originally commanded, with the continual sacrifice of animals. Which means that I believe Ezekiel's vision was symbolic - not literal.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Ron,

How about some help with other commands?

I don't have a field which I harvest, or grapevines. How then do I provide for the poor?

Do I leave 1/3 and put a sign out by the road.

I certainly would not take someone as a servant for years, who owed me money.

How do we keep that one?

How can we separate women during their menses? THAT would cause real chaos in the work world.

I know that even today, an Orthodox Jew will not shake the hand of any woman - lest she be "unclean".

[Ron Amnsn]

The remaining 2 tribes were widowed, when they murdered the LORD Yeshua - their betrothed.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron,

How about some help with other commands?

I don't have a field which I harvest, or grapevines. How then do I provide for the poor?

Do I leave 1/3 and put a sign out by the road.

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus came for the purpose of laying down his life. In Acts 2 AND Acts 3 Peter explains that Jesus was handed over to godless men according to God's predetermined plan. And that God thus fulfilled the things spoken beforehand by the prophets.

[Ron Amnsn]

So you are saying that the Father did not hold the authorities of Judah responsible for the murder of His Son. I believe He did.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

It was part of God's plan from the beginning that Jesus would die.

God's revelation of His foreknowledge does not place Him in the position of being unable to find other means to carry out His will. While it was decided by the God head that Jesus would give His life for our sins, the story of the repentance of the city of Ninevah reveals the Father's ability to change course in midstream when humans respond to the call for repentance.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

If you are telling us that Jesus did not have to die as God could have provided our salvation by some other means, I strongly disagree with you.

You almost sound like you consider God to act on mere whim and almost suggest that the plan of salvation was an act of mere whim on the part of God.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Where does Scripture say that when the sacrifices were "symbolically fulfilled" that God's people were supposed to stop following God's instructions regarding animal sacrifices?

I could not find a scripture where we are explicitly commanded to stop animal sacrifice, but the following passage from Hebrews 10 certainly implies that animal sacrifices are no longer necessary:

Quote:

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Heb. 10:8-14

For an explicit example of part of the first coveneant being done away with, see Galatians:

Quote:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? (Gal 3:1-5)

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.(Gal. 5:2-6)

[JoeMo]

Quote:

If you are telling us that Jesus did not have to die as God could have provided our salvation by some other means, I strongly disagree with you.

Gregory,

I strongly agree with you. If the wages of sin are death, Then someone had to die for our sins. If Christ had not died, we would have to die. If the sacrificial system was a prophecy of Christ's sacrifice, he had to die.

What if the Temple leadership and priests of the Temple would have recognized the Lamb of God for who He was (i.e., "believed" on Christ) - would He still have had to die? I say yes - but it wouldn't have had to torture and execution. Just like Isaac did, I envision Christ willingly laying on the alter of sacrifice and allowing His throat to be slit; spilling His blood as a propitiation for the sins of humanity.

[LifeHiscost]

If you are telling us that Jesus did not have to die as God could have provided our salvation by some other means, I strongly disagree with you.

[8thdaypriest]

I don't think that Ron Amnsn is saying that Christ did not have to die - just that He did not HAVE to die on a cross. He could have been stoned. EXCEPT- the prophecies pointed to crucifixion.

As for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, pre-Christ Israel:

NIV Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-- now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (Heb 9:15 NIV)

The blood of the animals they offered for sacrifice did NOT take away any sin. It only pointed forward to the true Sacrifice. But the fact that they brought the sacrifice in true repentance of heart, recorded their petition on the books of Heaven. THOSE sins "committed under the first covenant" which were placed upon Christ.

The Son of God is the "only mediator between God and man" - and has been such since the Fall. The Son of God led Israel thru the wilderness. He was the Rock they followed - the "Angel of the Covenant". In a very real sense the faithful of Israel DID have a saving relationship with the Son of God. When they meet Him one day, they will learn that He was the One who led them all along.

And NO - I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT EVERY DNA DESCENDANT OF JACOB IS AN ISRAELITE. It's NOT about DNA. It's about faith.

"They are NOT all Israel who are of [descended from] Israel [Jacob]." ONLY those of faith are Israel.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

I understand that those who believe in a "renewed" covenant rather than a "new" covenant,

believe that the Levite/Aaronic priesthood will be restored at a restored Temple

during the upcoming 7th millennium. Israel, along with the nations will come up to offer animal sacrifices.

I do NOT agree with this view.

1. Hebrews says "there is a change of the law" which includes a CHANGE of the priesthood.

It doesn't say "a change of the high priesthood". The entire priesthood is changed from Aaron/Levite to Melchizedek.

2. At Mt. Sinai the LORD said to all of Israel, "You will be a kingdom of priests".

Peter says we are being built up "a kingdom of priests".

Revelation 20 says that ALL of those who come up in the first resurrection will be "priests of God and of Christ"

Revelation 7:9, 13-14 The “great multitude” who “come out of great tribulation,” are “arrayed in white robes” [priestly garments] and “serve Him day and night in His temple.” ONLY PRIESTS were allowed to enter "His Temple".

and the 24 Elders claim they have been made priests and "will reign on the earth". The elders are from EVERY nation, kindred, tongue and people. They are NOT all descended from Aaron.

I expect to be a priest. Hence my "8thdaypriest" handle.

3. The LORD sent a "man of God" to Eli, who gave him a prophecy which predicted the END of the order of Aaron.

The House of Aaron entered into a blood covenant with Yahweh! Death would be the punishment for breaking this covenant! The LORD appointed Aaron and his descendants to an “everlasting priesthood,” but they did not continue in righteousness. They despised the LORD and abused their role as priests. A man of God came to Eli, with a prophecy and a curse. The LORD would bring an end to their priesthood. The promise to Aaron and his descendants was a conditional blood covenant promise - based upon their obedience to that covenant. By their actions, they despised that covenant! Their priesthood was forfeit!

The LORD keeps His covenant with those who love Him, and obey His commandments (Deut. 7:9, Isa. 56:6, Dan. 9:4).“Covenant” by definition, is a pledge, an agreement, a treaty, an understanding or obligation entered into by at least two individuals. The LORD is not bound to honor His covenant with those who despise Him, and violate (without repentance) the terms of that covenant.

1 Samuel 2:30-35 “Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: `I said indeed that your house and the house of your father [Aaron] would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm and the arm of your father’s house, [Aaron’s House] so that there will not be an old man in your house [a man of eligible age for the priesthood]. And you will see an enemy in My dwelling place, despite all the good which God does for Israel. And there shall not be an old man in your house forever. . . . Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.’”

The “faithful priest” would be Yeshua Messiah. God would “build Him a sure house” and He would walk before the LORD, as His anointed priest - forever (Psa. 110:4).

CONCLUSION: If you "change" the priesthood, there is no place to take an animal sacrifice, because under the Sinai Covenant, every sacrifice was brought to a priest of the order of Aaron.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#704622

The joy of Jesus.

Quote:

It's about faith.

May I suggest it's about grace, as well as faith , which is often looked at as a type of works whereas both are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."Eph 2:7-9 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!