613 Commandments

[BobRyan]

I have been making my way thru the 613 Commandments. You can find them on several different Jewish/Rabbinic websites.

I've been trying to figure out which ones remain under the New Covenant, and which ones are definitely "obsolete".

Seventh-day Adventists hold to the Lev 11 clean/unclean distinction that God setup before the flood and the Ten Commandments.

And as Heb 10 points out the ceremonial system based in animal sacrifices and offerings ended at the cross.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Seventh-day Adventists hold to the Lev 11 clean/unclean distinction that God setup before the flood and the Ten Commandments.

However, we as Adventist are really quite selective about the clean/unclean rules and only subscribe to the ones about eating unclean animals. We don't seem to be bothered by touching unclean animals and indeed have them as pets in our homes, nor the many clean/unclean rules about non-food things. But even from a dietary standpoint, we are not following the most significant part of those rules, those about blood and eating organ meat. Otherwise we would insist on eating only kosher. The blood rule was the oldest articulated dietary rule going back to when God told Noah that they could now eat evertything, but not their blood. And it survived into the NT church for the Gentiles, they were to avoid the blood. The reason was simply that blood was sacred, it was the life force within all creatures. Blood was an integral part of worship and remains a part of our salvation. We are saved by the blood of the Lamb.

[Gustave]

I have been making my way thru the 613 Commandments. You can find them on several different Jewish/Rabbinic websites.

I've been trying to figure out which ones remain under the New Covenant, and which ones are definitely "obsolete".

I've also been looking up the references given for each one to see what the written word has to say.

Most folks do not understand about the Oral Torah. The Pharisees taught that Moses gave many laws or explanations of laws orally.

[8thdaypriest]

Lev 22,24

You shall not offer to the Lord any beast that hath the testicles bruised, or crushed, or cut and taken away: NEITHER shall you do any such thing in your land.

I would understand this to say that while they were on the journey through the wilderness they were not to offer any animal with testicles cut, crushed, etc. AND when they came into the land, the same law would apply.

I don't think this law applied to any animals that were NOT for sacrifice.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Gustave said,

"They were all passed down orally....

...Scripture IS tradition that has been written down."

I would make an exception to this with the Ten Commandments. They WERE written on stone by the LORD Himself.

I'm trying to look at the principle involved in the different commandments (dietary, cleanliness, quarantine, sexual, marriage, inheritance, war, self defense, slaves, Feasts, etc).

How are these principles brought into the New Covenant?

Or are most of these commandments obsolete?

Thank you Gustave, for your comments.

Blessings,

Rachel

[Ron Amnsn]

3. The LORD sent a "man of God" to Eli, who gave him a prophecy which predicted the END of the order of Aaron.

[8thdaypriest]

Where does it actually say in Scripture that all the descendants of Aaron would forfeit the priesthood if some of them were not righteous?

Hi Ron,

From Mt. Sinai the LORD said to Israel - to ALL of Israel - "You shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

Then some - not all - of Israel broke covenant, and worshiped the golden calf. The LORD then changed His covenant for ALL of Israel and their descendants. The "priesthood being changed" - ONLY the descendants of Levi, and specifically Aaron would be priests and high priests from that point on.

SO THAT WAS THE FIRST CHANGE.

The Melchizedek priesthood is OLDER than the Aaronic.

I see the LORD returning to His original order, under Jesus Christ.

Peter says we are being built up to be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation".

John wrote that everyone from the first resurrection will be priests of God and of Christ. They are NOT all descendants of Levi/Aaron.

The 24 Elders says that they are being made to be "priests" and that they will "reign on the earth". They also say that they have been saved out of EVERY NATION, KINDRED, TONGUE, and PEOPLE. They are not all descended from Levi/Aaron.

So presumably these are Melchizedek priests.

When Eve/Adam sinned, the penalty effected their whole posterity. When Saul sinned, the penalty effected his whole posterity. When Canaan sinned the penalty effected his whole posterity.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

Where does it actually say in Scripture that all the descendants of Aaron would forfeit the priesthood if some of them were not righteous?

Hi Ron,

[8thdaypriest]

Regarding the symbolism in the Book of Ezekiel:

IMO, the LORD was trying to give a prophecy without causing Israel to throw aside the sacrificial system - yet.

It was not yet time. The true LAMB had not yet been offered.

If the LORD had shown Ezekiel the vision WITHOUT Levite priests, and WITHOUT animal sacrifice, the whole system might have been abandoned at the return from Babylon.

So He used the Levite priests to symbolize the coming priests of His kingdom on earth. Their character will be like the priests of Zadok, who faithfully served David when Absalom rebelled.

He used the picture of animal sacrifices to symbolize His continuing covering of blood (grace) for those from the nations who will be raised at that time.

Ron - If you and I can understand that Yeshua the Son of God died as a sacrifice for our sins, WITHOUT ever slitting the throat of a bleating lamb, then why can't the people from the nations understand? There were non-Hebrew converts from the time of Paul and onward, who never once went to Jerusalem. Yet they "understood" and will be saved in His kingdom.

Revelation has symbolism too. John "saw a lamb as it had been wounded". Was there actually a bleeding lamb in the throne room of God in Heaven.

The LORD said thru Isaiah, "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain", (Isa 11:9 NKJ)

You really believe that our LORD wants to watch very frightened bleating lambs dragged up to an alter, watching as their throats are slit and they bleed out. THAT's what you believe our LORD still wants to watch. I respectfully disagree.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Ron Amnsn]

Regarding the symbolism in the Book of Ezekiel:

IMO, the LORD was trying to give a prophecy without causing Israel to throw aside the sacrificial system - yet.

It was not yet time. The true LAMB had not yet been offered.

If the LORD had shown Ezekiel the vision WITHOUT Levite priests, and WITHOUT animal sacrifice, the whole system might have been abandoned at the return from Babylon.

So He used the Levite priests to symbolize the coming priests of His kingdom on earth. Their character will be like the priests of Zadok, who faithfully served David when Absalom rebelled.

[8thdaypriest]

Both priesthoods can function at the same time.

I believe that redeemed persons from EVERY tribe will become Melchizedek priests. So the faithful Levite Priests will be there, as well as those of every other tribe.

And I believe that faithful women, and those not physically born "first" will also become priests. There is no marriage - hence no reproduction in the resurrection. There is no longer sexuality.

The LORD called Israel (all of Israel) His "firstborn". We are grafted IN to Israel, when we come to faith in Yeshua as Messiah.

NRS Revelation 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

Blessings,

Rachel

[Samie]

... In the months before Jesus' birth God considered Zacharias to be a righteous and faithful Levitical priest and sent an angel to speak to Zacharias while he was serving as a priest in the Temple.(Luke 1) By these examples we know that God still had a faithful remnant of Levitical priests not long before the second Temple was destroyed.

[Samie]

The LORD called Israel (all of Israel) His "firstborn". We are grafted IN to Israel, when we come to faith in Yeshua as Messiah.

[Ron Amnsn]

Questions for Ron:

Do you believe that Yeshua Messiah will reign on this earth during the upcoming 7th millennium?

Do you also believe that system of blood sacrifices will be restored, at a restored Temple at Jerusalem when Yeshua Messiah reigns on the earth?

How long will this system of blood sacrifice continue?

Hello Rachel,

I'm not an expert on prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled. I believe that God gives us prophecy not so much to help us foretell the future, but rather so we can watch what happens, compare it with prophecy, and confirm that God's Word is dependable when we see the prophesied events happen.

It does appear that in the prophecies that the upcoming millennium will be spent on earth with Messiah reigning.

It also appears that Israel and Jerusalem will be restored when the restoration of "all things" occurs. What that restoration looks like remains to be seen. However, I would lean toward the belief the restoration would include the resumption of the Temple services because of what the prophets have written and because Jesus said that nothing would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth pass away. At that point in time, I don't think earth will have passed away yet. However, because the Messiah will be reigning at that time, there is the possibility that He could introduce changes.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm not an expert on prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled. I believe that God gives us prophecy not so much to help us foretell the future, but rather so we can watch what happens, compare it with prophecy, and confirm that God's Word is dependable when we see the prophesied events happen.

I agree completely with you on this one.

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

The LORD called Israel (all of Israel) His "firstborn". We are grafted IN to Israel, when we come to faith in Yeshua as Messiah.

Hi, Sis Rachel;

Grafting is farmer's work, NOT the work of the branch to be grafted, isn't it? No branch can graft itself to another tree, NOR can it extricate itself from its own tree.

Bro. Ron,

Who said that we graft ourselves? Not me. Of course, the LORD does the grafting. We are adopted in the beloved. Adoption was another analogy used to describe our new attachment relationship with God our Father. Marriage is another.

I believe the olive tree represents Israel. The root "is holy and nourishes you", so the "root" would be Christ.

That verse you quoted said that even Israelites who had been "broken off" because of "unbelief" could be grafted back in to the olive tree.

[8thdaypriest]

Is this the verse you are referring to?

Matthew 5:17-18 [Yeshua speaking] “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.” (ASV)

He came “to fulfill” the Law.

Did He fulfill the Law? - Yes!

“He was obedient unto death” (Phil. 2:8). So THAT was accomplished!! He fulfilled every duty to the Law. He can legitimately receive the promise of that covenant. We who have not perfectly obeyed, can still receive the promise - if we are part of His bride.

He came to accomplish everything that was written concerning His fulfillment of the Law.

Did He? If He was speaking of those things that were written concerning His incarnation - His life and death as a human being - then yes. He accomplished everything that was prophesied.

Acts 13:29 “Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.”

Luke 24:44 [speaking post resurrection] “Then He said to them, ‘These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the prophets and the Psalms concerning me.”

Acts 3:18 “But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.”

John 19:28-30 “After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, 'I am thirsty.' A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”

It WAS finished - accomplished.

I'm pretty sure that the heavens will pass away at the Second Coming.

Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

In context He was speaking of His own glorious return.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Perhaps we could at least agree that AFTER the return of Christ in glory, the Law may be changed, allowing for “spiritual sacrifices” only in the coming kingdom of Messiah.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Bro. Ron,

Who said that we graft ourselves? Not me.

I believe the olive tree represents Israel. The root "is holy and nourishes you", so the "root" would be Christ.

That verse you quoted said that even Israelites who had been "broken off" because of "unbelief" could be grafted back in to the olive tree.

[Ron Amnsn]

Also no Temple showed that the sacrifices were over.

[Ron Amnsn]

Seventh-day Adventists hold to the Lev 11 clean/unclean distinction that God setup before the flood and the Ten Commandments.

And as Heb 10 points out the ceremonial system based in animal sacrifices and offerings ended at the cross.

God also instituted animal sacrifices before the flood and before the Ten Commandments.

Never in Scripture does it refer to anything as a "ceremonial system". That is a man-made designation that is not based on Scripture. Because the term "ceremonial system" is not defined in the Bible, scholars cannot even agree on which of God's instructions, rules, statutes, and laws are included in that imaginary category of God's Law that they wish to make void.

Some SDA's will tell you that the "ceremonial system" included everything that was written on the scroll that was placed beside the Ark of the Covenant. But "oops", the Ten Commandments themselves were written on that scroll, probably twice (Exodus 20 and Deut. 5) And the commandments that Jesus designated as the greatest commandment and the second-greatest commandment were both written on that scroll (Deut. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18). Also God's instructions regarding clean and unclean food were written on that same scroll.

On his final visit to Jerusalem, the apostle Paul himself went to the Temple to offer sacrifices and was in compliance with the purity laws of the Law of Moses. "Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; in which they found me occupied in the temple, having been purified, without any crowd or uproar." (Acts 24:17-18) As you know, this happened a few decades after the cross. Evidently Paul was living and preaching something different than what you are saying.

[8thdaypriest]

We cannot deny it happened. The story was faithfully preserved in Acts Chapter 21, because it ended with Paul’s arrest. At the end of his third missionary journey, many years after the Damascus road experience, Paul returned to Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost.

This alone should tell us that Paul was NOT faithfully following Torah law because the law commanded that every Israelite male be present at Jerusalem three time during EVERY YEAR. Paul had not been back to Jerusalem for 17 years.

He had apparently taken a Nazarite vow, for which he had his hair cut off some weeks before reaching the City (Acts 18:18). (See Numbers 6:2,5,9,18.)

The LORD had given him several warnings along the route. (See Acts 20:22-23, Acts 21:4, Acts 21:11.) But Paul was determined.

Upon reaching Jerusalem he met with “James and all the elders” who joyfully told him of all the converts from the Jews who had come to belief in Yeshua as Messiah. These Jewish converts were “all zealous for the Law” (Acts 21:20).

Acts 21:21 [James speaking] ‘but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.”

Acts 21:22-24 [James continues] “What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.”

There were several sacrifices involved in this process of purification. Paul went to the Temple, and paid the money for the sacrifices, but before they could complete the process of purification some of the Jews from Asia recognized Paul - and a riot ensued, as they sought to kill him. From that day on Paul remained a prisoner.

Why did Paul do as the Elders directed? Did he believe that the blood of animals really effected anything at all? Did he ignore the warnings sent by the LORD? Did he cross the line? Did he strike the rock twice?

1 Corinthians 9:20 “and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;”

Paul makes it very clear that he did not consider himself “under the law” (Rom. 6:15).

I think we must consider the possibility that Paul was going thru the motions, in order to dispel prejudice against the Gospel, from the Jewish community. After all, in this same passage James repeats the consensus of the Jerusalem Council.

Acts 21:25 “But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, [sacrifices at the Temple] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Are you starting to see why some in the Messianic Community are teaching that Jews are still obligated to keep the sacrificial law, and Gentiles are not.

It is no wonder to me that the LORD allowed the Temple to be destroyed - just to end the confusion. The problem today is that a third Temple will be restored on the Mount - before the return of Christ in glory. Many will go there to offer sacrifice, but the LORD will not be there. An imposter will “sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2Thess. 2:3-4).

There is a study at my website titled "Another Temple".

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Ron Amnsn]

Sorry for intruding, but this is just to clarify something. It appears from the account of Scriptures that Zacharias was from the tribe of Judah, NOT from Levi. It was Zacharias' wife, Elisabeth, who was a Levite.

We know that the name Abijah refers to more than one person in the Bible. Among the Abijahs that are not explicitly mentioned there was probably at least one descendant of Aaron.

In the Old Testament King David, Solomon, and Hezekiah organized the priests into divisions (or courses) to serve at the Temple by schedule. The division of Abijah (or Abia) was evidently one of those courses. I've heard that the traditional writings of the Jews tell what time of year the division of Abijah served, but I haven't verified that.

If Zecharias had actually been of the tribe of Judah as you suggest, rather than the tribe of Levi, then Luke's statement that "they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord" would be false, because the commandments of the Lord do not allow men from the tribe of Judah to serve as priests at the temple in Jerusalem (as affirmed in Hebrews 7:13-14).

[JoeMo]

What do these verses say to you?

1

Quote:

2 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (2Cor. 3:12-18)

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Sorry for intruding, but this is just to clarify something. It appears from the account of Scriptures that Zacharias was from the tribe of Judah, NOT from Levi. It was Zacharias' wife, Elisabeth, who was a Levite.

We know that the name Abijah refers to more than one person in the Bible. Among the Abijahs that are not explicitly mentioned there was probably at least one descendant of Aaron.

In the Old Testament King David, Solomon, and Hezekiah organized the priests into divisions (or courses) to serve at the Temple by schedule. The division of Abijah (or Abia) was evidently one of those courses. I've heard that the traditional writings of the Jews tell what time of year the division of Abijah served, but I haven't verified that.

If Zecharias had actually been of the tribe of Judah as you suggest, rather than the tribe of Levi, then Luke's statement that "they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord" would be false, because the commandments of the Lord do not allow men from the tribe of Judah to serve as priests at the temple in Jerusalem (as affirmed in Hebrews 7:13-14).

So, can it be safely said that the appointment of the Lord Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, to serve as High Priest, was likewise NOT in accord with the commandments of the Lord?

[8thdaypriest]

THE END OF SACRIFICES

NRS Hebrews 10:8 "When he said above, 'You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings' (these are offered according to the law),

9 then he added, 'See, I have come to do your will.' He abolishes the first in order to establish the second".

He "abolishes" the "sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings"

in order to "establish" "the second" - the priestly ministry of Christ at "the True Tabernacle which is heaven itself" and our ministry with Him as "a kingdom of priests".

I DO NOT SEE how the priestly ministry according to the Aaronic order can co-exist, or be simultaneous with, the priestly ministry of Christ according to the "order of Melchizedek".

Abolishing "the first", which in this passage IS "sacrifices and offering and burnt offerings and sin offerings which are offered according to the law" MEANS the end of animal sacrifice.

Jesus Christ the Son of God is THE one and only true sacrifice for all time - past, present and future. No other sacrifice is necessary or pleasing to God. In fact, I would think it an affront to God, as if the death of His Son should change nothing.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint