A Land of Many People Groups

[Sojourner]

By your definition, you consider Mary and Joseph "moochers" when they fled with their son Jesus Christ across the border into another country for protection?

This article sums it up better than I can, rather than take cut and pastes from it, here it is, - http://hms.salvos.org.au/the-bible-asylum-seekers/

[Aliensanctuary]

I can't read the motives for everyone crossing into the USA's southern border, but I suspect it's more of a desperate attempt to escape the primitive and hostile conditions in the Central American countries than to become welfare moochers. By feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and tending to the sick, we are doing that to Christ. I'd rather have my taxes spent for humanitarian purposes rather than on bloody wars that kill so many.

The welfare system here is far too easy to abuse, and should be fixed, but I'd still rather have my taxes used for translation services rather than on guns and bombs in wars. Helping these thousands of children who can't speak English find homes and a normal life should be a priority.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

By your definition, you consider Mary and Joseph "moochers" when they fled with their son Jesus Christ across the border into another country for protection?

I don't for a minute believe Joseph took his family to Egypt whereby he sat and did nothing to support his family.

Try again...

[bonnie]

By your definition, you consider Mary and Joseph "moochers" when they fled with their son Jesus Christ across the border into another country for protection?

This article sums it up better than I can, rather than take cut and pastes from it, here it is, - http://hms.salvos.org.au/the-bible-asylum-seekers/

So Mary and Joseph demanded open ended charity,refused to adjust to the customs or language,demanded interpreters, subsidized housing,forced others in the name of christianity to provide for them as long as they felt necessary.

You certainly have a different view of Mary and Joseph than I have

[bonnie]

I can't read the motives for everyone crossing into the USA's southern border, but I suspect it's more of a desperate attempt to escape the primitive and hostile conditions in the Central American countries than to become welfare moochers. By feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and tending to the sick, we are doing that to Christ. I'd rather have my taxes spent for humanitarian purposes rather than on bloody wars that kill so many.

The welfare system here is far too easy to abuse, and should be fixed, but I'd still rather have my taxes used for translation services rather than on guns and bombs in wars. Helping these thousands of children who can't speak English find homes and a normal life should be a priority.

No one asked you to read motives.Not to tough to read the news and see the results,whatever the motive.

Odd isn't it that Jesus and what He would do is brought into this by politicians and citizens alike. It has been stressed here many times the US is not a christian nation. If God or Jesus is heard in a public place how quickly that can be shot down as trying to push your belief on another .He can certainly be used to quiet dissent tho when convenient for some.

[Sojourner]

I can't read the motives for everyone crossing into the USA's southern border, but I suspect it's more of a desperate attempt to escape the primitive and hostile conditions in the Central American countries than to become welfare moochers. By feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and tending to the sick, we are doing that to Christ. I'd rather have my taxes spent for humanitarian purposes rather than on bloody wars that kill so many.

The welfare system here is far too easy to abuse, and should be fixed, but I'd still rather have my taxes used for translation services rather than on guns and bombs in wars. Helping these thousands of children who can't speak English find homes and a normal life should be a priority.

Hardly an unreasonable suggestion and comparison. Just the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are running at a cost to the tax payer in the US of an estimated cost of between 4 – 6 Trillion Dollars ongoing. This does not include the costing for various other wars nor the cost of keeping troops and bases maintained on the border of North Korea and in other places. I guess this is why the response has been from Obama to continue to increase the debt ceiling and loan more and more funds from the Chinese Communist party. Attacking welfare assistance for refugees and their children is sure to solve the problem though…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nati...0a60_story.html

[bonnie]

Hardly an unreasonable suggestion and comparison. Just the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are running at a cost to the tax payer in the US of an estimated cost of between 4 – 6 Trillion Dollars ongoing. This does not include the costing for various other wars nor the cost of keeping troops and bases maintained on the border of North Korea and in other places. I guess this is why the response has been from Obama to continue to increase the debt ceiling and loan more and more funds from the Chinese Communist party. Attacking welfare assistance for refugees and their children is sure to solve the problem though…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nati...0a60_story.html

No,they are separate problems.

[LifeHiscost]

This article sums it up better than I can, rather than take cut and pastes from it, here it is, - http://hms.salvos.org.au/the-bible-asylum-seekers/

A relationship with Jesus, to know Him, is what I read according to your URL reference.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[bonnie]

Hardly an unreasonable suggestion and comparison. Just the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are running at a cost to the tax payer in the US of an estimated cost of between 4 – 6 Trillion Dollars ongoing. This does not include the costing for various other wars nor the cost of keeping troops and bases maintained on the border of North Korea and in other places. I guess this is why the response has been from Obama to continue to increase the debt ceiling and loan more and more funds from the Chinese Communist party. Attacking welfare assistance for refugees and their children is sure to solve the problem though…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nati...0a60_story.html

I have a neighbor that has a winter home in AZ she no longer feels safe in using.Her health issues make MN winters very tough for her. Immigrants,mostly illegals have destroyed this for her. Because of the conditions there she is unable to sell it.Are you of the belief that if the base on the border of N.Korea were closed this problem would be solved? Those that came illegally,would have come legally ,learned english and a trade?

I have a family member in AZ that had to move to a location that didn't have as many illegals to keep his family safe and to have the education they were being denied because of the needs of immigrants. This would be solved by a never ending handout? English instruction is available and in most cases free,yet many don't feel the need to take advantage of it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Everything you do is based on the choices you make........period

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."John 15:16 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Sojourner]

No,they are separate problems.

How do you see that they are Separate? – Do you recall what happened when the US lost against North Vietnam in the Vietnam war? The Vietnamese communist party swept through Vietnam and began killing anyone that had collaborated with US forces or supported western troops, as a result hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese took to boats for safety, many drowned at the same time. It was considered by the likes of the US, Canada, Australia and others that we would take those people in as Refugees which we did so over several years.

Consider the wars of more modern times in Afghanistan and Iraq where decisions taken to go to war in these countries created thousands of refugees. Whose responsibility is it to care for those people?

Take it up to modern times when Obama orders yet another drone strike on targets in Yemen and they get the wrong people and the result is orphaned children and other displaced people. Whose responsibility does that fall to, to bring aid and assistance to those people.

Often people on the conservative side of politics are only too happy to call for war to resolve problems, yet not to many seem to accept that in doing so, you bear a social responsibility for the people that your machines of war displace and injure.

[bonnie]

How do you see that they are Separate? – Do you recall what happened when the US lost against North Vietnam in the Vietnam war? The Vietnamese communist party swept through Vietnam and began killing anyone that had collaborated with US forces or supported western troops, as a result hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese took to boats for safety, many drowned at the same time. It was considered by the likes of the US, Canada, Australia and others that we would take those people in as Refugees which we did so over several years.

Consider the wars of more modern times in Afghanistan and Iraq where decisions taken to go to war in these countries created thousands of refugees. Whose responsibility is it to care for those people?

Take it up to modern times when Obama orders yet another drone strike on targets in Yemen and they get the wrong people and the result is orphaned children and other displaced people. Whose responsibility does that fall to, to bring aid and assistance to those people.

Often people on the conservative side of politics are only too happy to call for war to resolve problems, yet not to many seem to accept that in doing so, you bear a social responsibility for the people that your machines of war displace and injure.

Really,the conservative side......The group of Democrats who voted in favor of the Iraq War includes some very powerful figures, such as: Hillary Clinton, Obama's Secretary of State; Joe Biden, Obama's Vice President; Tom Daschle, Obama's Secretary of Health and Human Services; John Kerry, Democratic Presidential Nominee 2004, and Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader.

But that has what to do with the flood crossing the border illegally now? Are these children from Iraq,Afghanistan,Vietnam? I don 't think so.

What war in these countries has the US now waged so that we should bear the social responsibility?

What war on Mexico has caused the flood of illegals from there?

[Sojourner]

First off you were upset that Colorado provides translations in 200 languages hence I suspected Vietnamese, Arabic and so forth were included in that.

Still, if the issue soley is about people from Mexico, are you familiar with the war between America and Mexico where large portions of Mexican land were annexed and people displaced? It seems to me that the current situation in Israel and the West Bank revolves around a similar alleged theme.

Still, if the concerns are re violence and so forth, are their not existing laws to deal with that via local police along with a program to deport illegal immigrants back to Mexico? I watch a show on Cable called "Steven Segal Lawman" for which several episodes have been aired around that theme.

Alternativley, why not send your politicians over to Australia for a study tour on how the problem is dealt with here, with the use of internment campes for illegals and no citizenship here even if you are found to be a refugee if you have arrived illegally? No family reuinions are permitted for existing illegal migrants either. Just this last week the Austrlian Navy intercepted a boat load of 43 illegal migrants from Sri Lanka and relocated them back to Sri Lanka on a Sri Lankan Naval vessel after the people were interviewed and found to be economic migrants, not refugees.

[lazarus]

“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.” Lev. 19:34-35

Tom, you should know by now that this kind of scripture is irrelevant in these kind of discussions. Politics and culture trump scripture.

[bonnie]

Tom, you should know by now that this kind of scripture is irrelevant in these kind of discussions. Politics and culture trump scripture.

Yes this kind of scripture is irrelevant when improperly applied.

What is the context of sojourner in the Old Testament

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible provides three instances giving specific definition to the word sojourner:

"A person living in mutually responsible association with a community or in a place not inherently his own."

"In the basic meaning of the term, a sojourner is a person who occupies a position between the native born and the foreigner."

"A traveler and settler for a shorter or longer period."

[Tom Wetmore]

OK. So how do you apply this kind of Scripture properly? What do you understand it to mean? Using those definitions, how does that text apply to this current discussion?

[bonnie]

OK. So how do you apply this kind of Scripture properly? What do you understand it to mean? Using those definitions, how does that text apply to this current discussion?

Sojourner's in the bible are not what is taking place now. This is a invasion.

Biblical sojourner's were expected to obey the laws of the land where they were asking for shelter.

Subject to not only the benefits but the consequences for breaking the laws of that land.

It is also pretty clear they were to assimilate to their new country. This used to be the expectation from those coming here.You come legally,abide by the laws of the land and assimilate. Assimilation is now viewed as bigotry,hatred or racism. The US is expected to assimilate to the various cultures coming to our country.

Where do you find biblically "sojourner's" are to dictate the terms and conditions of their acceptance to the country of their choice?

The implication always seems to co me thru that those that oppose what is taken place want these children to starve.That type of implication is simply implying a lie and I think that has been made pretty clear.

As you believe "sojourner's" as described biblically refers to this never ending influx of illegal immigrants,especially so many minor children,I hope I am safe in assuming that you and others have stepped forward. I understand that there are refugee children being brought to an area near you.

Christian principals are something more than being stated and then handed over to a government to enforce.

Volunteers are needed,how many of you have offered your legal expertise and homes to fill the request for foster homes?

Have you opened your homes,to shelter,educate and care for just a few of these children?

[lazarus]

Here's the original link for Bonnie's orginal definition. Not the source.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/ethics/sojourner-argument.html

There are other perspectives

Strongs:

01616 רג ger gare or (fully) ריג geyr (gare)

from 01481; n m; {See TWOT on 330 @@ "330a"}

AV-stranger 87, alien 1, sojourner 1, stranger + 0376 1, stranger + 04480 1, strangers + 0582 1; 92

1) sojourner

1a) a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights

1b) of foreigners in Israel, though conceded rights.

NAS Word Usage - Total: 92

alien 40, aliens 11, foreigners 1, immigrants 1, sojourner 5, sojourners 2, stranger 25, stranger's 1, strangers 6

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1616&t=KJV

God’s concern for the weaker members of society is evident throughout the Bible in His constant reference to Israel and other nation’s treatment of the Stranger, Widow and Orphan.

Deut. 10:17-19 “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger,(Hebrew = ‘GER’) giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deut. 27:19 “Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger (GER), the fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say ‘Amen!’”

There are four different words in the Hebrew that are all translated as stranger – GER, TOSHAV, ZAR, NOCRI.

The most common is the word (GER), which typically refers to a foreigner who has decided to move to Israel and to join the nation – essentially an immigrant like Ruth. Such a stranger was given the same rights as the native born and the same obligations. See Num. 15:29-30, 19:10, Lev. 24:16, Deut. 31:12, etc.

Num 15:15 “One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger (GER) who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.” see also v.30

Exodus 12:19 “For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses, since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a stranger (GER) or a native of the land.”

Notice in this passage that the stranger (GER) is considered to be part of the congregation of Israel even though he is not native born. The stranger is also subjected to the same rules about Passover. cf Num. 9:14.

When the bible speaks of forbidding a stranger to partake of Israel’s holidays or in any way denying them the normal rights due to the native born, the word for Stranger is (Nocri) or (Zar). A NOCRI was not allowed to be king or ruler of Israel - Deut. 17:15. A NOCRI could be charged interest - Deut.23:20, whereas a GER apparently could not be charged interest – Lev 25:35. A NOCRI was forbidden the Passover as is a TOSHAV, but a GER was allowed to eat it but he had to be circumcised like the native born Israeli. Exodus 12:43ff. However, the TOSHAV was allowed to use the cities of refuge – Num. 35:15.

In Today’s terms, we have the following rough equivalents of the Hebrew words:

GER – someone who chooses to immigrate and be part of the native people. (LXX – Proselyte)

TOSHAV – a temporary dweller, a migrant. The root means to “sit”

ZAR – simply means stranger, not part of a larger context.

NOCRI – a true foreigner who does not wish to be part of the native people, nor to keep their laws.

http://markhaughwout.com/Bible/Stranger.htm

There is more info out there.....

[bonnie]

An interesting article on this....http://cis.org/ImmigrationBible

In view of what you posted I would assume you don't believe there should be any limits,any restrictions,or legal immigration requirements?

As this has been an escalating problem over the last few years which has now reached crisis proportions,is there a point where as christians we say enough? This current situation doesn't show any signs of letting up.

Do we as a nation have a right to protect our borders? Any control over who enters? Do those entering this country have responsibilities and obligations? I have asked that before but no one seems to think they do. Biblically this is not correct.

As the bible speaks mostly about personal responsibility as christians and not government responsibility ,what have you done concerning this situation?

Those that believe as you,Tom and some others have ample

opportunity here to put your money where your mouth is.They need foster homes,legal help,clothing,medical. Along with wanting the US to do it's "christian" duty,are you doing yours,hands on,personal time invested? I would hope so.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, as I read those passages, it is not talking about just personal responsibility. Those commands were also primarily addressed to the people of Israel as a nation. And the same principles were laid down by Jesus for his followers. Of course, we do not live in Ancient Israel, nor in a theocracy. And the laws of our land are different and in any ways inconsistent, if not contrary to the laws and principles laid down by God for the nation of Israel and by Jesus for His kingdom and followers. So whose law do we follow?

But it seems that so many of those who most vigorously rant and rail about the supposed "invasion" of illegals across our borders also loudly maintain that this is a Christian nation and push to enforce Chrisitan values by creating and interpreting laws that reflect those values. They also claim to be followers of The same God who clearly has a very different perspective.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

But it seems that so many of those who most vigorously rant and rail about the supposed "invasion" of illegals across our borders also loudly maintain that this is a Christian nation and push to enforce Chrisitan values by creating and interpreting laws that reflect those values. They also claim to be followers of The same God who clearly has a very different perspective.

(biting my tongue, ouch,yikes)

[bonnie]

Well, as I read those passages, it is not talking about just personal responsibility. Those commands were also primarily addressed to the people of Israel as a nation. And the same principles were laid down by Jesus for his followers. Of course, we do not live in Ancient Israel, nor in a theocracy. And the laws of our land are different and in any ways inconsistent, if not contrary to the laws and principles laid down by God for the nation of Israel and by Jesus for His kingdom and followers. So whose law do we follow?

[Sojourner]

As the bible speaks mostly about personal responsibility as christians and not government responsibility ,what have you done concerning this situation?

Those that believe as you,Tom and some others have ample

opportunity here to put your money where your mouth is.They need foster homes,legal help,clothing,medical. Along with wanting the US to do it's "christian" duty,are you doing yours,hands on,personal time invested? I would hope so.

http://www.adra.org/site/PageNavigator/work.html

[Aliensanctuary]

It looks like volunteering at ADRA is more like applying for a job. They'll accept you if they want you. You can't just walk in off the street and go somewhere to help out.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

Impressive, but expensive

When do immigrants take responsibility for learning the language of the country they chose to come to?

Compassion gone awry!